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If God Is All-Forgiving, When Will He Forgive Satan?

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Brewdog said:
Satan and hell as they are taught now were both invented in the Middle Ages.
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Hell as a place of fire and/or eternal punishment/suffering is written about by: Clement, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, and Tertullian, among others, in the 2nd century. Hippolytus, Ignatius, and Cyprian all write about it in the third century. By the late fourth to early 5th century, St. Augustine had weighed in on it in "The City of God". All of those sources are from prior to the middle ages, and all of those authors are considered among the most important theologians of their time. With the exception of Augustine, those are all sources from before the church had any power, indeed except for Augustine and Tertullian all of them suffered martyrdom, meaning that they lived during a period of time when the church had no power and was instead under intense persecution.

I got tired of looking them all up, but here's some of the quotes from the previously mentioned church fathers in the second century:

Justin Martyr said:
...when some are sent to be punished unceasingly into judgment and condemnation of fire; but others shall exist in freedom from suffering, from corruption, and from grief, and in immortality." (The Dialogue with Trypho, Ch. XLV)
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Iraneaeus of Lyons said:
[God will] send the spiritual forces of wickedness, and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, and the impious, unjust, lawless, and blasphemous among men into everlasting fire" (Against Heresies 1:10:1)
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Tertullian said:
After the present age is ended he will judge his worshipers for a reward of eternal life and the godless for a fire equally perpetual and unending" (Apology 18:3)
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As you can see, belief in hell as a place of eternal punishment goes back to at least the second century, not to the middle ages; this is a fact.

Furthermore, your claim that it was invented in order to gain more control over people is very difficult to support given the facts of its early development. The people who developed the doctrine of hell lived during a time when Christianity was marginalized and Christians faced intense persecution and martyrdom. To believe your theory, we would have to believe that they correctly guessed that several centuries later, Christianity would be the dominant religion and at that point it would be useful to have a hell in order to better control people. That's a bit hard to believe.

You'd have better luck trying to argue that hell was invented in order to comfort the persecuted by assuring them that those who are persecuting them will one day suffer for what they have done. That would at least be more believable.
 
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So anyway I went to church three times a week as a kid until around the age of 18 and that's definitely taught and believed by many. This wasn't a serious post anyway so don't take it too seriously.
 
Gaugingcatenate said:
That being the case I would have to say in my perspective it is a false premise and respectfully decline an opinion.

But I will say while Clapton is not God, to me, he is pretty damned good. Apropos, I really enjoyed his Tears in Heaven.
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True. Clapton even said Jimi Hendrix and Stevie Rey Vaughn were better, but they never had Clapton's tone! Did you ever hear him cover Bob Dylan's Don't Think Twice It's Alright? It's that tone that's so good!
Check it out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xitMOIKM1bQ
 
Clapton is God said:
So anyway I went to church three times a week as a kid until around the age of 18 and that's definitely taught and believed by many. This wasn't a serious post anyway so don't take it too seriously.
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You went to church as a child and stopped in adulthood. Is it any surprise you have a child-like understanding of the faith?

"Believed by many" is just weasel words. You have no evidence whatsoever. All you have is some vague notion based on things you remember hearing as a child.
 
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My understanding of Satan from the original Koine is that it's a force of temptation within us that is there to lure us, through our free will, away from God. It's not an actual person.

If you want to transform your darkness you have to know it and own it, otherwise you don't really know what you're asking forgiveness for.

Furthermore, God has already forgiven us before we have to ask. The challenge is self-forgiveness. Jesus died so that we could have more leeway to give ourselves a chance, to make mistakes but ultimately learn to use our free will for good.

In other words I don't think it's God that we need to ask for forgiveness. He knows us better than we know ourselves. The challenge is to forgive ourselves and each other.
 

Hell has been around longer than that. Christi mentions it in the bible as well as the gospel of John.
Actually they are the actions of a just God. God will not allow sin to continue. Sin and death will be punished.
That punishment is permanent separation from God and the people that believe in his Son. If he was not loving He never would have provided a way out.


Actually no hell wasn't created by the church it very much is biblical and comes from Christ and other books as well.
It has nothing to do with behaving properly.


Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell” (Matthew 10:28).

The Bible speaks of hell as a place of absolute loneliness and despair and hopelessness. It calls it a place of “darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth” (Matthew 22:13).


Rev. 20:13, "And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done."
Rev. 20:14, "Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 

No no where is his found in the bible. In fact Christ himself even says no ones comes to the father but through me.

He also says there will be many in that day say Lord, Lord we did all these things in your name and cast out demons and healed the sick. I will say to them get thee hence you workers of iniquity for I never knew you.
 

For he is willing to cast you sins as far as the east is from the west.
Yes God is all forgiving for those that ask and call on the name of His Sons's name.

Remember the criminal on the cross? He had done wrong his entire life was a their a murderer and probably
Some other things as well. Yet what did Christ tell him?

Today you will be with me in paradise.
 
So don't bow down - nobody will care.
 

That is closer to the Jewish conception of what 'Satan' is than what he is understood to be in many (probably most) Christian denominations.
 
Sherman123 said:
That is closer to the Jewish conception of what 'Satan' is than what he is understood to be in many (probably most) Christian denominations.
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I know, which is why I prefer to go with that. Just like I prefer to go with the original meaning of Hell, and not the hadic version that was invented by Dante's Inferno.

Christian history is a distorted one. Jesus never talked about Satan or Hell he only talked about being on the outside or the inside of God.
 

That's what I'm saying. If Jesus didn't say it then I don't care.
 
It doesn't harm God, but I do think it breaks His heart.
 
blarg said:
then you dont need gods forgiveness
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Harming I news elf is an affront to God. You are HIS creation, after all.



Mind you, I'm not religious, I just know the book fairly well. And you're right...you don't NEED gods forgiveness. Hell is an option. God loves you...and without forgiveness, you invite torment upon yourself, not just in hell. Plus, without acknowledging your favorite lures and mistakes, you never grow. You don't aspire to be more than you are. It's like if you programmed an AI, pouring yourself into that project, but upon awareness, the AI chooses not to learn anything new. That would upset you, yes?

And last, he'll is not eternal, eventually all souls good to heaven.




If you believe in that sorta thing.
 


cant say that makes much sense

the answer to some one harming them self should not be to harm them more

how would the god who dosent need to forgive you not forgiving you torment you?

hell dosent make to much sense either unless hell is an ok place wher you just get some space away form god if the 2 of you dont see eye to eye

knowing yourself would be necessary for growth but your own values should determine what counts as growth

dont know why you would make an ai just to parrot yourself or suffer
 

Umm yes he did. He mentioned hells and the devil often.
 


So if God already knows what choices we're going to make, how can we possibly have free will? If I could make a choice other than the choice God knew I was going to make then he wouldn't be all knowing. So only if God is not all knowing do we have free will.
 
jmotivator said:
End thread.
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Yeah?

What kind of needy, spiteful being would create an entire race of thinking people solely for the purpose that they worship it? And then torture them forever for not worshipping it?

We have more compassion for our pets. What does it say about a god who is less compassionate than us?

This doesn't begin to address the fact that this god never bothers to show up just to reassure us that yes, it's here and wants us to do well.
 

knowing what someone is going to choose doesn't mean they don't have a choice.

If I set two plates one with cookies and one with vegetables and ask kids to choose one.
I know they are going to take the cookies. Does that mean they don't have a choice?

Nope he can be all knowing and still allow free will.
 
Opopanax said:
Yeah?

What kind of needy, spiteful being would create an entire race of thinking people solely for the purpose that they worship it? And then torture them forever for not worshipping it?
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God punishes sin not the person. Also God doesn't torture anyone.
We have more compassion for our pets. What does it say about a god who is less compassionate than us?
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The bible says the exact opposite.
Would you be willing to give up you son to save a pet?
If not then you don't have more compassion.

This doesn't begin to address the fact that this god never bothers to show up just to reassure us that yes, it's here and wants us to do well.
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He reassures me all the time.
 

When God granted us Free Will he allowed the possibility of sin and corruption. As such, God doesn't "allowed" pain and suffering, pain and suffering are our choice.

In many ways the Eastern Religions have it right: Most of what we see as pain and suffering are simply our perception of events. Most of Jesus' teaching were to change our perception of Earthly suffering. We also see this play out in societies around the world, where those who choose not to accept victimization are far more likely to improve their lot in life than those who choose to suffer.

The world free of suffering is still there for you to choose, you just don't choose it and opt instead to fault God for giving you the choice.
 
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