I have a "right" to...

AlbqOwl · Mar 4, 2010

Cephus said:
Sorry, but you'd be wrong. I just said that I do not believe for a second that freedom of religion is a universal, inalienable right and now you're telling me that I do? That particular right applies only within the society where it has been granted. In a society where it has not been granted, such as parts of the Middle East, you *DO NOT* have freedom of religion. They *CAN* ostracize you or kill you for practicing a religion that you are not, by law, allowed to practice. You might not like that, but it doesn't change the fact.

The reality is, you're looking at reality through American-colored glasses, but there's a whole wide world out there that doesn't give a damn what American law, culture or society says.

You're right. There are many places that do not recognize unalienable rights of any kind and almost without exception such places harbor the world's most viscious and greedy leadership and the world's poorest, most oppressed, depressed, repressed, and discouraged people.

But we aren't talking about a 'right to free speech' in Nepal are we? We aren't talking about a right to the free exercise of religion or of the press in Iran are we? We aren't talking about the right to free market principles in some of Africa's most brutal regimes are we?

We are talking about the unalienable rights afforded by the U.S. Constitution that has made Americans the most free, most optimistic, most productive, and most prosperous people the world has ever known and that produced a society as classless as any the world had ever known.

And we are in danger of re-creating the oppressive and damning culture that the Constitution freed us from. A culture in which the government forces one group to serve another; a culture in which the government, not the Constitution, decrees what rights we will and will not have.

Some of us don't want to re-create a society like that. We think our best hope is in fighting to live under guaranteed Constitutional freedoms as the Founders understood those freedoms. We don't WANT to be like anybody else.

Catawba · Mar 4, 2010

AlbqOwl said:
You're right. There are many places that do not recognize unalienable rights of any kind and almost without exception such places harbor the world's most viscious and greedy leadership and the world's poorest, most oppressed, depressed, repressed, and discouraged people.

But we aren't talking about a 'right to free speech' in Nepal are we? We aren't talking about a right to the free exercise of religion or of the press in Iran are we? We aren't talking about the right to free market principles in some of Africa's most brutal regimes are we?

We are talking about the unalienable rights afforded by the U.S. Constitution that has made Americans the most free, most optimistic, most productive, and most prosperous people the world has ever known and that produced a society as classless as any the world had ever known.

And we are in danger of re-creating the oppressive and damning culture that the Constitution freed us from. A culture in which the government forces one group to serve another; a culture in which the government, not the Constitution, decrees what rights we will and will not have.

Some of us don't want to re-create a society like that. We think our best hope is in fighting to live under guaranteed Constitutional freedoms as the Founders understood those freedoms. We don't WANT to be like anybody else.

Oh you are talking about the Constitution. I thought your were talking about some natural or god given rights, rather than just something we made up.

AlbqOwl · Mar 4, 2010

Catawba said:
Oh you are talking about the Constitution. I thought your were talking about some natural or god given rights, rather than just something we made up.

But both the Declaration of Independence AND the U.S. Constitution were based upon the conviction of the Founders that there are unalienable rights that are God given and no human authority should have ability to infringe them. They were wresting their lives and destiny and that of a new nation away from an oppressive British authority who did not respect those unalienable rights. And many others do not respect them to this day.

Given the incredible success of the United States of America when compared to any other nation that does not respect such rights, who can say they were wrong without looking like a complete idiot?

“The sacred rights of mankind are not to be
rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty
records. They are written, as with a sun beam
in the whole volume of human nature, by the
hand of the divinity itself; and can never be
erased or obscured by mortal power.”
— Alexander Hamilton, 1775

“The Declaration of Independence...[is the]
declaratory charter of our rights, and of the
rights of man.”
— Thomas Jefferson, 1819

The DECLARATION OF InDEPEnDeNCE
Action of Second Continental Congress
July 4, 1776

The Unanimous Declaration of the thirteen united States of America

When in the Course of human Events, it
becomes necessary for one People to dissolve the
Political Bands which have connected them with
another, and to assume among the Powers of the
Earth, the separate and equal Station to which the
Laws of Nature and of Nature’s God entitle them,
a decent Respect to the Opinions of Mankind
requires that they should declare the causes which
impel them to the Separation.

We hold these Truths to be self-evident,
that all Men are created equal, that they are
endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable
Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and
the pursuit of Happiness—That to secure these
Rights, Governments are instituted among Men,
deriving their just Powers from the Consent of the
Governed, that whenever any Form of Government
becomes destructive of these Ends, it is the Right of
the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute
new Government, laying its Foundation on such
Principles, and organizing its Powers in such
Form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect
their Safety and Happiness. . . .

Catawba · Mar 4, 2010

AlbqOwl said:
But both the Declaration of Independence AND the U.S. Constitution were based upon the conviction of the Founders that there are unalienable rights that are God given and no human authority should have ability to infringe them. They were wresting their lives and destiny and that of a new nation away from an oppressive British authority who did not respect those unalienable rights. And many others do not respect them to this day.

Given the incredible success of the United States of America when compared to any other nation that does not respect such rights, who can say they were wrong without looking like a complete idiot?

I think most of the articles in our Constitution are pretty noble.....except maybe the part they had to amend to disallow slavery.

It still doesn't negate the point that these are just rules we made up. Other places make up their own rules.

AlbqOwl · Mar 4, 2010

Catawba said:
I think most of the articles in our Constitution are pretty noble.....except maybe the part they had to amend to disallow slavery.

It still doesn't negate the point that these are just rules we made up. Other places make up their own rules.

Just rules we made up.

That is really sad that you would think that.

But hey, it's a free country. Our Constitution guarantees that.

Catawba · Mar 5, 2010

AlbqOwl said:
Just rules we made up.

That is really sad that you would think that.

To think otherwise is delusional.

Oftencold · Mar 5, 2010

Jerry said:
Just because you have a right to something doesn't mean there's a mandate for anyone to give it to you.

Sometimes you have to take it, and when you do out of need, it's not a crime.

You might want to consider avoiding being tissue-typed, in case anyone with a bad heart and a compatible medical profile gets "ideas."

Jerry · Mar 5, 2010

Oftencold said:
You might want to consider avoiding being tissue-typed, in case anyone with a bad heart and a compatible medical profile gets "ideas."

After 5 years on this forum, it's a little to late to worry about it.

Andalublue · Mar 5, 2010

AlbqOwl said:
Just rules we made up.

That is really sad that you would think that.

What else is it? Was it handed down on tablets of stone that God himself inscribed? "Just making up rules" is kind of how law happens. The better you make them up, the longer they will be observed. So, to the drafters of the original, nice job!

Cephus · Mar 5, 2010

Goobieman said:
So.... you're stating that if you found yourself forced to practice some religion not of your choice, you'd take no exception to it at all, you'd not complain, even to yourself, and you'd happily accept it.
Right?

I didn't say I wouldn't complain, only that I could, in fact, be compelled to do so. If someone forced me at gunpoint to sit through a really awful movie, I'd complain about that too, but certainly, with a gun to my head, I could be forced to sit in the theater, or in a pew. Nobody says I have to like it.

Reality is that -you- believe that you have rights and you will not be happy when they are violated, regardless of where or how.
Thus, you DO buy into the idea of 'universal rights'.

Isn't it amazing that you keep telling me what I believe. Hell, why don't you just go have both sides of the conversation, you seem to think you know it all anyhow. :roll:

Cephus · Mar 5, 2010

AlbqOwl said:
We are talking about the unalienable rights afforded by the U.S. Constitution that has made Americans the most free, most optimistic, most productive, and most prosperous people the world has ever known and that produced a society as classless as any the world had ever known.

Unfortunately, he's not talking about just the United States, he is talking about Nepal and Iran, he's asserting that the rights that Americans enjoy are *UNIVERSAL*. They apply to everyone, everywhere, at every time in history, without exception. They apply equally to the black slave in the south in 1820 as they do to the modern-day American. If you could find a man on the moon, they'd apply to him as well.

Clearly, this is not the case, rights exist and apply solely to the society which grants them. We in the United States do enjoy a nice set of rights, enumerated in our laws and founding documents. Those rights basically mean diddly squat once you take a step onto foreign soil, except where they are enforced by threats from the U.S. government. Those aren't really rights, those are "crap, we can't enforce our own laws because we might get bombed".

Iwa · Mar 5, 2010

Cephus said:
Unfortunately, he's not talking about just the United States, he is talking about Nepal and Iran, he's asserting that the rights that Americans enjoy are *UNIVERSAL*. They apply to everyone, everywhere, at every time in history, without exception. They apply equally to the black slave in the south in 1820 as they do to the modern-day American. If you could find a man on the moon, they'd apply to him as well.

Clearly, this is not the case, rights exist and apply solely to the society which grants them. We in the United States do enjoy a nice set of rights, enumerated in our laws and founding documents. Those rights basically mean diddly squat once you take a step onto foreign soil, except where they are enforced by threats from the U.S. government. Those aren't really rights, those are "crap, we can't enforce our own laws because we might get bombed".

nobdy has rights anywhere but everyone has rights to anything.

MidiPour · Mar 5, 2010

You have the rights to pursue happiness.

Water is the only listed item on the poll that I feel people have the "rights" to.

Andalublue · Mar 5, 2010

MidiPour said:
You have the rights to pursue happiness.

Water is the only listed item on the poll that I feel people have the "rights" to.

Everyone has the right to pursue happiness, because it's not something that anyone can prevent you doing. They can make the attainment of happiness nigh on impossible, but they can't stop you trying.

AlbqOwl · Mar 5, 2010

Andalublue said:
What else is it? Was it handed down on tablets of stone that God himself inscribed? "Just making up rules" is kind of how law happens. The better you make them up, the longer they will be observed. So, to the drafters of the original, nice job!

When you change the rules of the game in midstream in order to give yourself a better chance to win, you are 'making up rules'. The Popes, the feudal lords, the monarchs, the dictators of the world have often done that in order to advantage themselves or solidify their power.

But among free people laws are not 'rules that we make up'. They are solutions to problems or human conditions that exist. And if you are devoutly religious people, as were almost all of the Founders, you believe that God (by whatever name) is the highest authority, and God grants the rights that the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution were written to defend.

It was intended, therefore, that every 'rule' that would guide our society would be targeted to accomplish the principles:

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence,[1] promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

So, the 'rules' were derived from much debate, logic, reason, and careful consideration all to protect and defend the rights that they believe to exist as God given.

Not just something just 'made up' at all.

Goobieman · Mar 5, 2010

Catawba said:
Well you would be wrong, because I do not believe freedom of religion is an universal, inalienable right.

So.... you're stating that if you found yourself forced to practice some religion not of your choice, you'd take no exception to it at all, you'd not complain, even to yourself, and you'd happily accept it.
Right?

Goobieman · Mar 5, 2010

Cephus said:
I didn't say I wouldn't complain,

...and what's the basis for that complaint?

MidiPour · Mar 5, 2010

Andalublue said:
Everyone has the right to pursue happiness, because it's not something that anyone can prevent you doing. They can make the attainment of happiness nigh on impossible, but they can't stop you trying.

Which is why I voted for water, I think the "rights" here, to a certain extent, disabilitates people from performing the best of their capabilities, and moral duties. This is, again, to an extent mind you.

Iwa · Mar 5, 2010

MidiPour said:
Which is why I voted for water, I think the "rights" here, to a certain extent, disabilitates people from performing the best of their capabilities, and moral duties. This is, again, to an extent mind you.

water makes me happy so its a double win. but rights are extended to however far the person can get.

Catawba · Mar 5, 2010

Goobieman said:
So.... you're stating that if you found yourself forced to practice some religion not of your choice, you'd take no exception to it at all, you'd not complain, even to yourself, and you'd happily accept it.
Right?

Changing the goal posts from "rights" to something we are forced to do?

Personally, I would work to change the rules the country made up, just like the people that made up the rules in our Constitution.

They are just rules made up by people. As someone has already mentioned they are not commandments handed down on tablets by god, as much as some imagine they are.

How did the god-given rights work out for the Japanese Americans forced into internment camps?

Or the rights of African Americans, or lack thereof, by the people that made up our rules?

Goobieman · Mar 5, 2010

Catawba said:
Changing the goal posts from "rights" to something we are forced to do?

The goal posts have not moved.

Personally, I would work to change the rules the country made up, just like the people that made up the rules in our Constitution.

You are not answering my question.
But, to that question, I'll add another:
Why?

Iwa · Mar 5, 2010

Goobieman said:
The goal posts have not moved.

You are not answering my question.
But, to that question, I'll add another:
Why?

the need to make the ability to be a prostitute legal. called :the Constitution of prostitution.

Cephus · Mar 5, 2010

Goobieman said:
...and what's the basis for that complaint?

Unhappiness or dissatisfaction. What's the basis for any complaint?

Cephus · Mar 5, 2010

Iwa said:
nobdy has rights anywhere but everyone has rights to anything.

Says who and how do you demonstrate it objectively?

Goobieman · Mar 5, 2010

Cephus said:
Unhappiness or dissatisfaction.

Ok... and why would such a thing make you unhappy and/or dissatisfied?

I have a "right" to...

I have a "right" to...

Health care

Food

Water

Other people's wealth

A job

A minimum or "living" wage

None of the above

Other

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