How Medicare for All will play out

[aociswundumho]

The purpose of this post is to completely and utterly destroy this insane idea that Medicare for All will benefit the American people.

I will use Bernie's plan for this post.

Bernie Sanders Official Website

Change will never come without political participation. Join the political revolution today.

berniesanders.com

Bernie's plan would:

1. Create a Medicare for All, single-payer, national health insurance program to provide everyone in America with comprehensive health care coverage, free at the point of service.

2. No networks, no premiums, no deductibles, no copays, no surprise bills.

3. Medicare coverage will be expanded and improved to include: include dental, hearing, vision, and home- and community-based long-term care, in-patient, and out-patient services, mental health and substance abuse treatment, reproductive and maternity care, prescription drugs, and more.

4. Stop the pharmaceutical industry from ripping off the American people by making sure that no one in America pays over $200 a year for the medicine they need by capping what Americans pay for prescription drugs under Medicare for All.

Sounds nice, doesn't it? Let's begin.

1. The overwhelming majority of Americans have medical problems.

Just 12% of the population is healthy:

This Is U.S.: Just 12 Percent Of American Adults Are Metabolically Healthy, Study Finds

The prevalence of what doctors consider good metabolic health is shockingly low in American adults, a new study finds. Researchers from the University of North Carolina's Gillings School of Global Public Health say that just 12 percent of the country's adult population is considered...

www.studyfinds.org

40% of Americans are obese:

FastStats

FastStats is an official application from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention’s (CDC) National Center for Health Statistics (NCHS) and puts access to topic-specific statistics at your fingertips.

www.cdc.gov

Less than 5% of American adults exercise regularly:

President's Council | health.gov

The President’s Council on Sports, Fitness & Nutrition (PCSFN) is a federal advisory committee that aims to promote healthy eating and physical activity for all people, regardless of background or ability.

www.hhs.gov

Pre-existing health conditions are widespread:

As many as 133 million Americans — roughly half the population under the age of 65 — have pre-existing medical conditions that could disqualify them from buying a health insurance policy or cause them to pay significantly higher premiums if the health law were overturned, according to a government analysis done in 2017.

https://www.nytimes.com/article/supreme-court-obamacare-case.html

2. Somewhere around 75 million Americans are either uninsured or underinsured.

There are currently about 30 million non-elderly Americans with no health insurance:

Key Facts about the Uninsured Population | KFF

This issue brief describes trends in health coverage in 2023, examines the characteristics of the uninsured population ages 0-64, and summarizes the access and financial implications of not having coverage.

www.kff.org

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr169.pdf

Another 45 to 55 million are under-insured, which means their health insurance really blows - inadequate coverage, high deductibles, high copays, etc, as described here:

When concerned with medical care and services, it has been shown that people who are experiencing the repercussions of underinsurance behave a lot like those individuals who are uninsured. Individuals often don't visit the doctor, don't fill prescriptions, and don't undergo preventive checkups and lab tests. Even when they go without preventive care and necessary prescriptions, many of the underinsured are still unable to cover all their medical expenses.Some of the most common medical expenses that underinsured people are not able to cover include rising health care premiums, deductibles, and copayments, as well as limits on coverage for various services or other limits and excluded services that can increase out-of-pocket expenses.

Underinsurance (healthcare) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Furthermore, the number of underinsured Americans continues to grow:

Underinsured Rate Rose From 2014-2018, With Greatest Growth Among People in Employer Health Plans

The latest biennial health insurance survey finds that among adults who were insured all year, 29 percent were underinsured in 2018, up from 23 percent in 2014. People in employer plans saw the biggest erosion in coverage.

www.commonwealthfund.org

The US has somewhere around 75 million people who need healthcare but must avoid the price-gouging, ass-raping US hospitals, or face serious financial hardship.

I'm at the character limit, to be continued in the following post.

 

[aociswundumho]

continued from the OP:

3. The law of demand is the most solid concept in economics. It is also very intuitive: as the price of a good decreases, the quantity demanded of that good increases.

Suppose a grocery store sells frozen pizzas for $7 each, and at that price they sell 10 per day. When they have the pizzas on sale for $5 each, they sell about 17 per day.

One day a clerk accidentally orders a tractor trailer full of frozen pizzas, so the store reduces the price to $2 each and they start selling 50 per day. Finally, the store offers the pizzas for free, and they are all gone in a couple of days. That's how the law of demand works.

Here's an excellent 3-minute video you should watch:




So here's the argument:

Since: The overwhelming majority of Americans have medical problems.

And: There are roughly 75 to 100 million Americans who can't get the healthcare they need because the price is way too high, even with health insurance.

Therefore: It follows that there is an enormous pent-up demand for healthcare in the US.

With the stroke of a pen, Bernie's M4A plan will bring the price of healthcare down to zero for everyone. This will cause a massive stampede of new patients into every hospital in the country.

In a free market, the supply of hospitals, doctors, nurses, etc would quickly expand to fill the need, but that can't happen here, because the supply of healthcare is being artificially restricted by the progressive regulatory state - this is why healthcare is so expensive in the US in the first place. The entire industry is full of government-created monopolies, labor cartels, and special interest groups that make bank because of the restrictions on supply and competition. The drastic increase in demand will result in wait times ridiculous even by socialism's standard. Stories of people suffering and dying while waiting for treatment will fill social media.

Wait, it gets worse. No amount of "progressive legislation" will fix this disaster, because what has to be done will not be politically possible for the idiot politicians who put it in place. We will be stuck with it, for a long, long time.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

Therefore: It follows that there is an enormous pent-up demand for healthcare in the US.

With the stroke of a pen, Bernie's M4A plan will bring the price of healthcare down to zero for everyone. This will cause a massive stampede of new patients into every hospital in the country.

This is stupid for two reason. For one, demand for healthcare is what is known as in-elastic demand; or in other words fixed. It’s not like cars or something where people would buy lots if the price was 0. In not going to go to the dentist 5 times a day because it’s free.

Secondly, the government can simply allocate more resources towards healthcare until there is sufficient productive capacity to meet demand. You are assuming it will be underfunded, but that doesn’t have to be the case.

 

[Nomad4Ever]

In a free market, the supply of hospitals, doctors, nurses, etc would quickly expand to fill the need

Also not true. You’ll notice there is no race to provide cheap healthcare to the totally underserved population in Africa. Why don’t they want these potential hundreds of millions of costumers? Because they simply cannot pay. No matter how free market it is, there will be people who it simply is not profitable to serve. Nobody profits from treating the homeless or unemployed. If you can’t pay, you aren’t profitable and might as well die. Hospitals would at best expand to the treat only those who can pay as the best case scenario.

 

[Integrityrespec]

There is no doubt Americans over pay for health care and the fault really goes to the American government system over the past 100 years. Political dontributions in exchange for influence is ruining every aspect of the average citizens economic life. Doctors, hospitals, specialists and professional societies of all sorts are contributing massive sums of money to political parties in return for a hands off policy toward pricing regulation. The government in this country hasn't done much over the past 100 years to keep pricing reasonable. College cost, both undergraduate and graduate schools along with medical schools are far too expensive and all of it boils over to the pocketbook of average America.
Many can afford it by sacrificing some other creature comfort, new home, new car, fancy vacation but many cannot and will do without health care and keep the house, car and vacation in the Bahamas. The US culture has become one of "let someone else pay for me". A compromise needs to happen. Some control of pricing for health care and insurance pricing through government (both state and federal) regulation and a better set of morals and values when it comes to forging our own way without expecting the government through taxpayer contributions to do it for us.
I've been paying for my own health care for 49 years. Except for a small scholarship I paid for mine and my wife's education. I really expect others to do all they can to take care of themselves with only some slight oversight by the government in keeping prices reasonable. That's simply not done because the politicians are being swayed by businesses, universities, the elite earners and their professional organizations. I've never not had health insurance for my myself and my family that I didn't pay for myself.
I've been fortunate to travel to a lot of places and the medical services in the US far outweigh the rest of the world. People I've met in foreign countries and ones from foreign countries that have moved to the US almost always confirm that opinion. Better care, better doctors, nurses, hospitals and much greater accessibility. The problem, pricing.
If we paid fire, police, teachers the way we pay doctors they'd be making 150,000 a year. If we paid doctors the way we pay teachers, police, fire, they'd make about 60,000. Both are important but all essential and all require expertise requiring specialized training and all impart critical services.

 

[aociswundumho]

This is stupid for two reason. For one, demand for healthcare is what is known as in-elastic demand;

Then why don't the literally millions of people with health problems who either have no insurance or are underinsured go to the hospital?

or in other words fixed. It’s not like cars or something where people would buy lots if the price was 0. In not going to go to the dentist 5 times a day because it’s free.
Secondly, the government can simply allocate more resources towards healthcare until there is sufficient productive capacity to meet demand. You are assuming it will be underfunded, but that doesn’t have to be the case.

No, the government can't and won't increase the supply of healthcare. The number of hospitals, doctors, nurses, etc, is all controlled by labor cartels and special interest groups. That's why it's so expensive.

 

[craig]

continued from the OP:

3. The law of demand is the most solid concept in economics. It is also very intuitive: as the price of a good decreases, the quantity demanded of that good increases.

Suppose a grocery store sells frozen pizzas for $7 each, and at that price they sell 10 per day. When they have the pizzas on sale for $5 each, they sell about 17 per day.

One day a clerk accidentally orders a tractor trailer full of frozen pizzas, so the store reduces the price to $2 each and they start selling 50 per day. Finally, the store offers the pizzas for free, and they are all gone in a couple of days. That's how the law of demand works.

Here's an excellent 3-minute video you should watch:




So here's the argument:

Since: The overwhelming majority of Americans have medical problems.

And: There are roughly 75 to 100 million Americans who can't get the healthcare they need because the price is way too high, even with health insurance.

Therefore: It follows that there is an enormous pent-up demand for healthcare in the US.

With the stroke of a pen, Bernie's M4A plan will bring the price of healthcare down to zero for everyone. This will cause a massive stampede of new patients into every hospital in the country.

In a free market, the supply of hospitals, doctors, nurses, etc would quickly expand to fill the need, but that can't happen here, because the supply of healthcare is being artificially restricted by the progressive regulatory state - this is why healthcare is so expensive in the US in the first place. The entire industry is full of government-created monopolies, labor cartels, and special interest groups that make bank because of the restrictions on supply and competition. The drastic increase in demand will result in wait times ridiculous even by socialism's standard. Stories of people suffering and dying while waiting for treatment will fill social media.

Wait, it gets worse. No amount of "progressive legislation" will fix this disaster, because what has to be done will not be politically possible for the idiot politicians who put it in place. We will be stuck with it, for a long, long time.

So you have no solution. If we want health care we must immigrate to Canada.

 

[aociswundumho]

So you have no solution.

The solution is a free market in healthcare, but that's not going to happen.

If we want health care we must immigrate to Canada.

Their wait times are approaching 6 months:

Waiting Your Turn: Wait Times for Health Care in Canada, 2020 is a new study that finds Canada’s health-care wait times reached 22.6 weeks in 2020—the longest ever recorded—and 143 per cent higher than the 9.3 weeks Canadians waited in 1993, when the Fraser Institute began tracking medical wait times. Before this year, the longest recorded wait time was 21.2 weeks in 2017. Atlantic Canada has the longest wait times in the country this year, and Ontario recorded the shortest wait time, which was still more than four months long.

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/categories/health-care-wait-times

Socialist institutions tend to get worse over time, not better.

 

[Bullseye]

This is stupid for two reason. For one, demand for healthcare is what is known as in-elastic demand; or in other words fixed. It’s not like cars or something where people would buy lots if the price was 0. In not going to go to the dentist 5 times a day because it’s free.

Secondly, the government can simply allocate more resources towards healthcare until there is sufficient productive capacity to meet demand. You are assuming it will be underfunded, but that doesn’t have to be the case.

And where do those "resources" come from? You also ignore the "if it's free, it's for me" effect on demand; people will flock to providers for the most minor or complaints to ensure they get THEIRS.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

The purpose of this post is to completely and utterly destroy this insane idea that Medicare for All will benefit the American people.

I will use Bernie's plan for this post.

What if we instead went with the plan the Cato institute did their study on?

They said it'd save Americans tens of billions every year, iirc.

What is your take on their study?

 

[Simon W. Moon]

And where do those "resources" come from? You also ignore the "if it's free, it's for me" effect on demand; people will flock to providers for the most minor or complaints to ensure they get THEIRS.

iirc, the Cato institute found we'd end up saving billions every year compared to what we're spending now

so, the resouces'd come from the same places resources come from now
just we'd have more resources leftover than we do now cause it's cheaper

 

[aociswundumho]

What if we instead went with the plan the Cato institute did their study on?

They said it'd save Americans tens of billions every year, iirc.

What is your take on their study?

Sorry, I've never read it or even heard of it.

 

[uptower]

Sounds expensive but it can be paid for: cut back on military spending, foreign wars; pay politicians less, tax the rich more and enforce it.

 

[Bullseye]

iirc, the Cato institute found we'd end up saving billions every year compared to what we're spending now

so, the resouces'd come from the same places resources come from now
just we'd have more resources leftover than we do now cause it's cheaper

I find that hard to believe. We're having problems with dwindling health care resources and doctor shortage now. Particularly in rural areas.

 

[craig]

The solution is a free market in healthcare, but that's not going to happen.



Their wait times are approaching 6 months:

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/categories/health-care-wait-times

Socialist institutions tend to get worse over time, not better.

You need to do some research. Do you have any friends in Canada? Also try to schedule a physical with your doctor for next week.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Sorry, I've never read it or even heard of it.

ahh ****

they have too many to wade through

I'll just withdraw the assertions cause I'm insufficiently motivated

 

[aociswundumho]

You need to do some research. Do you have any friends in Canada? Also try to schedule a physical with your doctor for next week.

I'm a builder, and a long time ago I had a french-canadian drywall subcontractor. One time on lunch we were all talking about healthcare, and he told us a story about how Canada's healthcare system killed his father. I don't remember the details, but I remember him crying.

 

[craig]

I'm a builder, and a long time ago I had a french-canadian drywall subcontractor. One time on lunch we were all talking about healthcare, and he told us a story about how Canada's healthcare system killed his father. I don't remember the details, but I remember him crying.

How long? Before they had universal health care? I usually take anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt but I would like to hear details.

 

[aociswundumho]

How long? Before they had universal health care? I usually take anecdotal evidence with a grain of salt but I would like to hear details.

Around 20 years ago.

 

[Greenbeard]

“A lot of people have health problems, a lot of people need care” is the worst ****ing argument against single-payer I’ve ever heard.

 

[Slartibartfast]

So the argument is “Americans suck too much to have health care”

 

[Greenbeard]

So the argument is “Americans suck too much to have health care”

There is no “argument.” It’s just that people need health care and we should be concerned about them getting it. There are decent arguments against single-payer but this train of thought is borderline sociopathic.

 

[Helix]

I'm for an expansive single payer system that covers everyone. Everyone who can be convinced in advance is already convinced. It's time to do it by chipping away at the opposition at the polls until it happens.

 

[dmpi]

What insurance company can get away with charging higher premiums to the very people who put the most money into the system? And people want to expand this!?

 

[aociswundumho]

“A lot of people have health problems, a lot of people need care” is the worst ****ing argument against single-payer I’ve ever heard.

No.

I tried to dumb it down as much as possible, but apparently that wasn't enough.

Let's try to find out what you disagree with. Consider the following claims:

1. The overwhelming majority of Americans have medical problems.

2. As many as 133 million Americans — roughly half the population under the age of 65 — have pre-existing medical conditions

3. Somewhere around 75 million Americans are either uninsured or underinsured.

Do you disagree with any of them?

If yes, say why.

Based on those claims being true, I concluded:

The US has somewhere around 75 million people who need healthcare but can't get it because they either have no insurance or are underinsured, which means serious financial hardship if they go to the hospital. It might be 50 million or 100 million, but the exact number doesn't matter, because it's a huge number no matter what.

Again, if you believe that's wrong, say why.