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I guess you're not old enough to understand that phrase's meaning.
I guess you're not old enough to understand that phrase's meaning.
The Japanese came in and set up auto assembly plants in America. Those workers are paid near union wages and benefits without there being a union. Why isn't there a union at those Japanese auto plants? Because it's not needed. Too bad other American companies can't learn that lesson.You can't reason with these people. They think we're trying to ban unions, which is ridiculous. Personally the only issue I have with it is that it can be made mandatory. People should certainly be able to associate with and pay who they please. They still have failed over and over and over again to give a real reason why something as awesome as they describe it is must be mandatory. Nothing says confidence in your ideals like making it compulsory.
Then there's always the "Well you can just go find another job in your completely unionized career field." BS.
You can't reason with these people. They think we're trying to ban unions, which is ridiculous.
Personally the only issue I have with it is that it can be made mandatory. People should certainly be able to associate with and pay who they please. They still have failed over and over and over again to give a real reason why something as awesome as they describe it is must be mandatory. Nothing says confidence in your ideals like making it compulsory.
:lamo You can lead them to the wiki but you can't force them to read it. :lamoOr enslave workers, or etc. etc. etc. ; ridiculous charges are thrown at you if you dare to have a problem with union leadership :roll:
frankly, it's surprising it took this long to reach for the language of racism. That's usually a bugaboo of choice when you want to try to delegitimize the opposition.
NO clue. The board hiccuped about that time so I submitted again. (I guess that's why we're always told not to submit again when making CC transactions!) Oddly enough, the strip under that post shows "You and [ARG:2 UNDEFINED] like this." on my computer - but on my user page it comes up as me Liking it twice at the same time - very strange.
The Japanese came in and set up auto assembly plants in America. Those workers are paid near union wages and benefits without there being a union.
Why isn't there a union at those Japanese auto plants?
Are you suggesting that withou unions, those wages at Toyota and Honda would be lower? That's a pretty bold claim to make without providing a single scrap of reference to support it.The Japanese came in and set up auto assembly plants in America. Those workers are paid near union wages and benefits without there being a union. Why isn't there a union at those Japanese auto plants? Because it's not needed. Too bad other American companies can't learn that lesson.
You are special and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!Here I was thinking I was special or something! :2razz:
You are special and don't let anyone tell you otherwise!
Not necessarily. What I'm suggesting is that if workers were actually paid what they're worth to the company (instead of their market value) and treated like people (instead of being just a line on the ledger like sheet steel or brake pads) there would be no need for unions. Things like unions don't form in a vacuum, they form from a need in society. If there is no need then, eventually, the unions would fade away on their own.Are you suggesting that withou unions, those wages at Toyota and Honda would be lower? That's a pretty bold claim to make without providing a single scrap of reference to support it.
Are you suggesting that withou unions, those wages at Toyota and Honda would be lower? That's a pretty bold claim to make without providing a single scrap of reference to support it.
I think so. Union wages make it so that other companies have to be competitive with their wages and benefits. That isn't so far fetched or hard to believe.
Also, I recall a time in the 80s, when those cara broke into our market...because they were so much cheaper than cars made in the US, without a sacrifice in quality. Then, we started building US cars in Mexico, and Japanese cars in the US. And last I checked, toyotas cost more than Chevys, and chevy has had fewer recalls in the last couple years, sans the issues with the Volt, the super car savior of the world. Go figure, eh?
I don't see what that has to do with the unions.
Not at all. What I'm suggesting is that if workers were actually paid what they're worth to the company (instead of their market value) and treated like people (instead of being just a line on the ledger like sheet steel or brake pads) there would be no need for unions. Things like unions don't form in a vacuum, they form from a need in society. If there is no need then, eventually, the unions would fade away on their own.
This is true and it's the reason unions tend to demand non-union workers pay some (usually less than member) union dues, because they also benefit from union negotiations. I've never seen an entity that has a pay scale for union members and one for non-union members. Everyone gets paid the same - what the union has negotiated.I think so. Union wages make it so that other companies have to be competitive with their wages and benefits. That isn't so far fetched or hard to believe.
This is true and it's the reason unions tend to demand non-union workers pay some (usually less than member) union dues, because they also benefit from union negotiations. I've never seen an entity that has a pay scale for union members and one for non-union members. Everyone gets paid the same - what the union has negotiated.
AKA prevailing wage.
Hmmm.....
If 10 men in state A all earn $10 an hour
And 10 men in state B have seven who earn $13 an hour, but three who are unemployed (and therefore earn $0 an hour)
Which state has the higher average wage?
On my iPhone, so can't parse this correctly...but anyway...I think so. Union wages make it so that other companies have to be competitive with their wages and benefits. That isn't so far fetched or hard to believe.
I don't see what that has to do with the unions.
That IS a pretty far fetched idea to believe. It ignores a principle characteristic of unions...which is to say...in a union shop, it's join the union, or don't work there. It also ignores another principle...when an employer doesn't need new help...they don't hire new help. This makes getting employment at union shops next to impossible. Hard to fire folks in unions, regardless of their performance...and all the workers there are union, by force...so yeah, on average, not a lot of openings...and when they do come, they go to family members, or friends. For those outside that circle? Forget it. They have to get employment elsewhere, and if they build cars, that means the non union Toyota shops and such. And that's if the two shops are close to each other. I mean, to believe as you do, then you must also believe that these sAme workers are willing and able to relocate in order to get the union job, over the non.
On my iPhone, so can't parse this correctly...but anyway...
That IS a pretty far fetched idea to believe.
Obviously you don't know anything about a union job site then. :shrug:
It ignores a principle characteristic of unions...which is to say...in a union shop, it's join the union, or don't work there.
Wrong. You can still work there, but you have to pay union dues in MOST cases because you would benefit from any negotiations that the union made with the business.
It also ignores another principle...when an employer doesn't need new help...they don't hire new help.
Good Lord! :roll:
This makes getting employment at union shops next to impossible. Hard to fire folks in unions, regardless of their performance...and all the workers there are union, by force...so yeah, on average, not a lot of openings...and when they do come, they go to family members, or friends.
This is such bull crap. All you have to do is pay your initial membership fee, and anyone can be a member.
For those outside that circle? Forget it. They have to get employment elsewhere, and if they build cars, that means the non union Toyota shops and such. And that's if the two shops are close to each other. I mean, to believe as you do, then you must also believe that these sAme workers are willing and able to relocate in order to get the union job, over the non.
I find it hard to believe that you know what you're talking about here.
It's too early for silly word problems cpwill. I hate math! :lamo
I think in the auto industry unions do set a kind of pay scale, yes. But if non-union jobs continued to pay a reasonable wage there would be no need for the union. People don't form unions when they're happy with their jobs and their basic needs are being met. I've given up promotions and higher paying jobs because I didn't like the work I would be required to do and liked where I was - haven't you?So why the comment? I mean, it read to me like you were saying that Japanese auto workers get paid what they do because, thanks to unions, other auto workers get paid that...
Unions may be businesses but they're (more or less) owned by the members. Or are you saying you think business men own the unions and take all the profits? If so, I'd like to see evidence of that.But now you've dropped another egg, lol. Are you now suggesting that WORKERS are seen as ANYTHING more than a potential resource to be exploited by the union? You realize that unions are businesses, for profit, right? You honestly think that union leadership sees their members as names, and numbers on a page, meaningless beyond the union income they represent?
sorry, that was a bit round-a-bout.
One state has 10 men making 10 dollars apiece - average of $10 an hour.
But the other state has two ways of counting. Either the 7 men working earn $13 for an average wage of $13 an hour, or only $91 is earned for the same 10 men as in State A who all want jobs, in which case the average wage is $9.10 an hour.
Depending on how you measure state B (our union state), it will have better or worse wages than State A (our right to work state).
We all want to make a decent living, and we want that for others to. Those are good instincts, and should be encouraged. Unfortunately, because of that, we tend to be willing to forget that labor exists on a supply/demand curve, and that when you increase the price of labor, you decrease demand for it.
I didn't know that. What plants are those?And for the record, many Japanese cars made in the US ARE made by union workers.
You're giving me a headache. :2razz:
Seriously, the union wages set a standard for others.
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