How I learned about ETHICITY vs. RACE...It was eye opening

[RetiredNSmilin]

For the longest time I thought ethnicity and race were the same thing.

Then when I was living in Rhode Island, I had a lady friend of mine totally blow my mind with a perfect example of how they are NOT the same thing.

She was a black lady of whom I worked with. I got along fine with her as I do with pretty much everyone I meet.

One day on St Patrick's Day she had a hat that said, KISS ME I AM IRISH. I chuckled a bit at that, and kissed her, but then later in the break room after a job I returned from, I asked her about it. She said she comes from a proud IRISH heritage, in that her father was IRISH and her mother was black. Her mother married into that heritage, and they celebrate that holiday all the time. She also told me there are quite a few Mexicans that are also IRISH and do the same thing.

That is when she told me about ETHNICITY vs. RACE....and blew my mind.

She said to explain ETHNICITY, she will tell me there are two ethic groups that completely hate each other generally, but...

are the same race
are the same religion
are loyal to the same country
live in the same cities

but generally can't stand each other.

She said it was the IRISH and the ITALIANS

both are white
both are staunch Catholics
both love America
and both live close to each other in most major cities

but...let one or the other walk into the other neighborhood, and a rock or pipe might be laid upside their head. Being a Texan, I have no understanding of this, but I can hear the jokes and slurs all over the place up there in Rhode Island.

BOOM!...mind blown, and since I had lived in the eastern seaboard for a little bit, I could see exactly what she was talking about.

That is when I was made to understand how a person's ethnic makeup can be a major factor is some prejudices.

I experienced it myself, being a Cajun in ethnicity. The spelling of my last name leaves no doubt of my Cajun heritage. My football coach hated me, I have been harassed on the job, been lead on false job interviews for a laugh, and growing up my dad pronounced our last name totally wrong so HE could get a job. Once I got out of the Navy and came back to Houston, I could see what he was talking about.

It was not until I was working on Cajun river towboats where I learned the correct way to pronounce my last name. I would still love to learn to speak Loosiana Cajun French.

Well, there it is. ETHNICITY can make a huge difference in how a person is treated. I know it is wrong to do so, but understanding the difference might help all of us know better. It is also quite fascinating to have someone tell you and explain their ethnic background.

 

[Abbazorkzog]

Indeed. Technically I am of a Mixed Race (around 50% Creole, which includes Black, Native-American and Italian - and the other half various slivers of different European races) but of European/Native-American ethnicity. I take pride in being more American than most Americans. It's a funny sort of irony.
Plays well into my cynical brand of Patriotism.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

Indeed. Technically I am of a Mixed Race (around 50% Creole, which includes Black, Native-American and Italian - and the other half various slivers of different European races) but of European/Native-American ethnicity. I take pride in being more American than most Americans. It's a funny sort of irony.
Plays well into my cynical brand of Patriotism.

Was it you who posted that pic on the political pics thread about those Bundy guys saying..." They are taking our land!"...and below a native American was throwing his head back in laughter.

You know, Native American is the only PC term I like. I think it is right.

Calling a black person African-American is just silly, since I have been to Africa many times and see night and day differences in them both.
Black skin does not make an African. The blackest skinned people I have ever seen were in the Philippines. The Negritos people.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

The one thing I always chuckled a bit about was how, no matter who you talked to, all said they had some Cherokee in them. Almost without exception, they would say there is a sliver of Cherokee somewhere in their genetics.

 

[Sweden]

For the longest time I thought ethnicity and race were the same thing.

Then when I was living in Rhode Island, I had a lady friend of mine totally blow my mind with a perfect example of how they are NOT the same thing.

She was a black lady of whom I worked with. I got along fine with her as I do with pretty much everyone I meet.

One day on St Patrick's Day she had a hat that said, KISS ME I AM IRISH. I chuckled a bit at that, and kissed her, but then later in the break room after a job I returned from, I asked her about it. She said she comes from a proud IRISH heritage, in that her father was IRISH and her mother was black. Her mother married into that heritage, and they celebrate that holiday all the time. She also told me there are quite a few Mexicans that are also IRISH and do the same thing.

That is when she told me about ETHNICITY vs. RACE....and blew my mind.

She said to explain ETHNICITY, she will tell me there are two ethic groups that completely hate each other generally, but...

are the same race
are the same religion
are loyal to the same country
live in the same cities

but generally can't stand each other.

She said it was the IRISH and the ITALIANS

both are white
both are staunch Catholics
both love America
and both live close to each other in most major cities

but...let one or the other walk into the other neighborhood, and a rock or pipe might be laid upside their head. Being a Texan, I have no understanding of this, but I can hear the jokes and slurs all over the place up there in Rhode Island.

BOOM!...mind blown, and since I had lived in the eastern seaboard for a little bit, I could see exactly what she was talking about.

That is when I was made to understand how a person's ethnic makeup can be a major factor is some prejudices.

I experienced it myself, being a Cajun in ethnicity. The spelling of my last name leaves no doubt of my Cajun heritage. My football coach hated me, I have been harassed on the job, been lead on false job interviews for a laugh, and growing up my dad pronounced our last name totally wrong so HE could get a job. Once I got out of the Navy and came back to Houston, I could see what he was talking about.

It was not until I was working on Cajun river towboats where I learned the correct way to pronounce my last name. I would still love to learn to speak Loosiana Cajun French.

Well, there it is. ETHNICITY can make a huge difference in how a person is treated. I know it is wrong to do so, but understanding the difference might help all of us know better. It is also quite fascinating to have someone tell you and explain their ethnic background.

Really great post. But can we please avoid using the word 'race'? Genetics has advanced enormously over the last few decades and it is now beyond doubt that there are no definable 'races'. Using this deeply flawed concept leads to endless confusion.

 

[longview]

I also come from southern Louisiana, and several of my family names are Cajun.
When I did my genealogy, I found out much of my family was actually Spanish,
from the Florida parishes.

 

[WCH]

Most of us are mutts. Sooner we realize that the better.

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

Really great post. But can we please avoid using the word 'race'? Genetics has advanced enormously over the last few decades and it is now beyond doubt that there are no definable 'races'. Using this deeply flawed concept leads to endless confusion.

Well, of that I have no doubt, but those same advances went completely over this dumb squid's head.

I use the term RACE very loosely.

Like why I love Italians.

Who can fault a race of people whose main attributes are cooking, singing, and making love.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

Well, of that I have no doubt, but those same advances went completely over this dumb squid's head.

I use the term RACE very loosely.

Like why I love Italians.

Who can fault a race of people whose main attributes are cooking, singing, and making love.

That post was largely incorrect.

An example,

chimps and bonobos in particular take pride of place as our nearest living relatives, sharing approximately 99 percent of our DNA

Tiny Genetic Differences between Humans and Other Primates Pervade the Genome - Scientific American

You wouldn't think we should stop defining species, would you?

Edit add: It's a bit more complicated than what was posted.
There are definite genetic differences between regional populations.

 

[longview]

I suspect culture has much more to do with a persons identity than race.
Someone once told me a story about why racism is wrong, (not the usual reasons).
The story was phrased as a question,
How many friends do you have that you would trust your life with?
Friends who would help you without question?
Most people cannot use all the fingers on one hand to count them.
Why would a person exclude large portions of the planet from what could be a very short
list, because of who their parents were?

 

[Sweden]

That post was largely incorrect.

An example,



Tiny Genetic Differences between Humans and Other Primates Pervade the Genome - Scientific American

You wouldn't think we should stop defining species, would you?

Edit add: It's a bit more complicated than what was posted.
There are definite genetic differences between regional populations.

The dividing line between species is can they successfully interbreed - that is they produce offspring that can themselves breed. Example: horses and donkeys can produce mules but mules cannot breed. Therefore horses and donkeys are separate species Of course there are DNA differences between the hundreds of thousands Homo
Sapiens gene pools but they can and do interbreed with no difficulty.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

The dividing line between species is can they successfully interbreed - that is they produce offspring that can themselves breed. Example: horses and donkeys can produce mules but mules cannot breed. Therefore horses and donkeys are separate species Of course there are DNA differences between the hundreds of thousands Homo
Sapiens gene pools but they can and do interbreed with no difficulty.

Yes, I know this but it was a just an example.
Right now, there is a "race genetics" debate, where there is no firm opinion.

Beyond that though, we do know some things, ethnic groups do tend to harbor specific genetic markers that can manifest themselves as disease (hereditary hemochromatosis, Tay Sachs, Sickle Cell, etc).
We also know that North African and Euro-Asian groups interbred with Neanderthals, where Subsaharan African groups largely did not.

The reason there is a debate is in part because of past actions of people trying to define race and doing bad things.
In reality, if there is a firm genetic stance with race, it can be used to customize disease treatment, which is something that would be revolutionary.

 

[Sweden]

Yes, I know this but it was a just an example.
Right now, there is a "race genetics" debate, where there is no firm opinion.

Beyond that though, we do know some things, ethnic groups do tend to harbor specific genetic markers that can manifest themselves as disease (hereditary hemochromatosis, Tay Sachs, Sickle Cell, etc).
We also know that North African and Euro-Asian groups interbred with Neanderthals, where Subsaharan African groups largely did not.

The reason there is a debate is in part because of past actions of people trying to define race and doing bad things.
In reality, if there is a firm genetic stance with race, it can be used to customize disease treatment, which is something that would be revolutionary.

I agree with most of what you say. There are indeed genetic differences between gene pools. But they are not discreet, defined, separate. They all overlap with many others. The trouble with the idea of 'races' is that puts people into groups which are artificial and which have no biological reality.

A day or so ago we saw a link to a US gov stats paper on crime. It classified 'Asian' as a 'race': beyond absurd. I find it hard to find words to describe this apaling ignorance hardly seems to do justice to such gross stupidity.

 

[RAMOSS]

The one thing I always chuckled a bit about was how, no matter who you talked to, all said they had some Cherokee in them. Almost without exception, they would say there is a sliver of Cherokee somewhere in their genetics.

Well, one reason for that is that it was custom for the Cherokee to seal treaties through marriage. That increases the likelihood (does not prove it by any means), that the claim is correct if you go back far enough.

 

[Harry Guerrilla]

I agree with most of what you say. There are indeed genetic differences between gene pools. But they are not discreet, defined, separate. They all overlap with many others. The trouble with the idea of 'races' is that puts people into groups which are artificial and which have no biological reality.

A day or so ago we saw a link to a US gov stats paper on crime. It classified 'Asian' as a 'race': beyond absurd. I find it hard to find words to describe this apaling ignorance hardly seems to do justice to such gross stupidity.

Well yea, that's stupid "Asian" can include anyone from Asia, which is idiotic.
Def good points.

 

[Carjosse]

I agree with most of what you say. There are indeed genetic differences between gene pools. But they are not discreet, defined, separate. They all overlap with many others. The trouble with the idea of 'races' is that puts people into groups which are artificial and which have no biological reality.

A day or so ago we saw a link to a US gov stats paper on crime. It classified 'Asian' as a 'race': beyond absurd. I find it hard to find words to describe this apaling ignorance hardly seems to do justice to such gross stupidity.

Race is a cultural concept more than anything but is very often ties to ethnicity. For example someone of exclusively European heritage cannot and most likely will not identify as Black. Asian can be a race, you just have to decide it is.

If you want to see how race works just look at South Africa and it's four distinct "racial" groups that all have their own cultural identity. You have White, Coloured, Black, and Asian. They have cultural significance and members of the groups define themselves a such based on their ethnic backgrounds. What would you call White Africans or Asian Africans?

 

[Carjosse]

It was not until I was working on Cajun river towboats where I learned the correct way to pronounce my last name. I would still love to learn to speak Loosiana Cajun French.

You could learn proper French, then you could probably get more use out of it then learn the pidgin.

 

[Sweden]

Race is a cultural concept more than anything but is very often ties to ethnicity. For example someone of exclusively European heritage cannot and most likely will not identify as Black. Asian can be a race, you just have to decide it is.

If you want to see how race works just look at South Africa and it's four distinct "racial" groups that all have their own cultural identity. You have White, Coloured, Black, and Asian. They have cultural significance and members of the groups define themselves a such based on their ethnic backgrounds. What would you call White Africans or Asian Africans?

There we have it. Agreement at last. Race is a 'cultural concept' with no more scientific justification or underpinning than the latest artistic fad. Upon this thing which has been decided on a whim rests a great tower of public policy. No wonder that the tower is tottering and bits keep falling off it.

If you want to see how 'race' doesn't work look at President Obama who has been shoehorned into an imaginary 'black race' a million times. Whereas the reality is that he is a man of both European and African ethnic heritage, culturally influenced by both.

With regard to South Africa I do not think that the groups have a neatly defined cultural identity. I would start by calling 'White Africans', 'Black Africans' and 'Asian Africans' people. One from each group that are, say, university lecturers would culturally be almost indistinguishable. While two 'black' South Africans with different educational backgrounds, one Zulu ethnicity and the other of Tswana ethnicity might be culturally very different.

So the cultural concept which is 'race' should be junked. Now.

 

[Sweden]

You could learn proper French, then you could probably get more use out of it then learn the pidgin.

Do you mean the proper French as spoken in Québec and New Brunswick or the proper French they speak in France? With my Belgian French education I have a little trouble with spoken version of the former.

 

[PoS]

I agree with most of what you say. There are indeed genetic differences between gene pools. But they are not discreet, defined, separate. They all overlap with many others. The trouble with the idea of 'races' is that puts people into groups which are artificial and which have no biological reality.

A day or so ago we saw a link to a US gov stats paper on crime. It classified 'Asian' as a 'race': beyond absurd. I find it hard to find words to describe this apaling ignorance hardly seems to do justice to such gross stupidity.

Well said. Science does not recognize race at all, its a cultural construct. There just isnt enough differences between people of varying skin colors to classify them as a sub race in any way.

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2015/mar/01/racism-science-human-genomes-darwin

 

[Gathomas88]

She said it was the IRISH and the ITALIANS

both are white
both are staunch Catholics
both love America
and both live close to each other in most major cities

Well... In fairness, Irish and Italians (i.e. Northern European Celts and Mediterranean peoples) are different enough in terms of genetics and overall appearance to basically be described as, at the very least, belonging to different subdivisions of the same race. It's not like you won't, in the vast majority of circumstances, be able to tell the difference between the two if you stand them side by side.

Mind you, I can say this as someone who claims partial descent from both groups. I'm reasonably dark complected, and can tan (enough so that I could probably pass for latino with enough sun exposure), but I also have a ginger younger sister, and red highlights in my beard. :lol:

In any case, however, I understand what you mean. I actually recently found out something rather interesting about Israelis which goes towards your point here.

I was always the impression that Israel was primarily settled by European Jews fleeing from the Holocaust. What puzzled me about that, however, was that basically every Israeli I have ever met looks like a swarthy Middle Easterner. They don't really look like American Jews either.

It turns out that this is because most of the population of Israel is made up of ethnic Mizrahi Jews, who have spent the last thousand years living with and intermingling with Arab, Persian, Syrian, and Turkish populations, and immigrated to Israel from those nations. European Jews are a different ethnic group, known as the Ashkenazi.

They're the same race, but completely different ethnicities, with different cultures.

 

[PoS]

Mind you, I can say this as someone who claims partial descent from both groups. I'm reasonably dark complected, and can tan (enough so that I could probably pass for latino with enough sun exposure), but I also have a ginger younger sister, and red highlights in my beard. :lol:

Or it could also be that you were adopted... :2razz:

 

[Gathomas88]

Or it could also be that you were adopted... :2razz:

More seriously, however, I'm basically the spitting image of my dad, both in terms of looks and personality, so I kind of doubt it. :lol:

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

That post was largely incorrect.

An example,



Tiny Genetic Differences between Humans and Other Primates Pervade the Genome - Scientific American

You wouldn't think we should stop defining species, would you?

Edit add: It's a bit more complicated than what was posted.
There are definite genetic differences between regional populations.

I guess some just don't have it in them to just relax and enjoy the day.

Every party has a Mr. Buzzkillington in it I guess.

I make a polite post about the Italian "race", and here come the overanalylticals swooping down to peck it to death with technical details rather than going with the sweet flow of the conversation.

PS...Both the Zulu and the Sioux consider their "race" the only good human beings on the planet. All others are a bit less. There is nothing wrong with that kind of pride in one's heritage. Why overanalyize it with scientific and genetic jiberjabber.

Someone is technically wrong on the internet...so what? Could someone please post that cute drawing to that effect?

 

[RetiredNSmilin]

You could learn proper French, then you could probably get more use out of it then learn the pidgin.

Compra, yea mo shea.