alphamale said:Retired Gen. Richard Myers, a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and retired Gen. Tommy Franks, who developed and executed the Iraq invasion plan, both came out in support of Rumsfeld friday. Hmmmm ... didn't seem to make as big a splash in the liberal media as the others, did it.
aps said:Sure it did. I saw it discussed in the Washington Post, and the New York Times. Specifically, the wittle memo that the Pentagon drafted to say what a great job wittle wummy is doing. LOL Rather pathetic, if you ask me.
Regardless, the retired generals speaking out against the Secretary of Defense is unprecedented, and is big news. Rumsfeld, stick around. You're only helping my party win in November. :lol: :lol:
aps said:Sure it did. I saw it discussed in the Washington Post, and the New York Times. Specifically, the wittle memo that the Pentagon drafted to say what a great job wittle wummy is doing. LOL Rather pathetic, if you ask me.
Regardless, the retired generals speaking out against the Secretary of Defense is unprecedented, and is big news. Rumsfeld, stick around. You're only helping my party win in November. :lol: :lol:
Should Ex-Military Generals Be Endorsing Anybody?
Harry Levins, in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch (Aug. 1, 2004):
Missouri's Omar Bradley once said, "Thirty-two years in the peacetime Army taught me to do my job, hold my tongue and keep my name out of the papers."
But last week's papers listed a dozen retired generals and admirals who allied themselves with Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry. Even more retired officers are expected to rally this month behind Republican George W. Bush.
Their involvement runs against the grain of American military tradition, several scholars say. What's more, say the scholars and one retired general, this involvement packs the possibility of problems.
Other retired generals call that view nonsense. They say retired military people have the right to speak out -- and the experience that qualifies them to speak out.
"We fought the wars, and we understand what war is all about," says retired Army Lt. Gen. Sam Wetzel.
"Neutral servants"
Until recent decades, American generals and admirals have largely steered clear of politics...
...But by and large, tradition in the officers' mess held that politics (like sex) was a taboo topic. Until Dwight Eisenhower sought the Republican nomination in 1952, nobody knew whether he was a Republican or a Democrat...
...Political scientist Peter Feaver of Duke University cites the demise in the Vietnam era of the pro-defense wing of the Democratic Party and its leader, Sen. Henry M. "Scoop" Jackson of Washington. Then, says Feaver, along came Ronald Reagan to build up the armed forces. "You had one party embracing the military and one party spurning the military," Feaver says.
Under Bill Clinton, Feaver adds, the politicization spread to the ranks of the retired.
"In 1992, Clinton trotted out retired flag officers to counter the charge that he was a draft-dodger," says Feaver. Among them was Adm. William Crowe, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff from 1985-89 -- and one of last week's campaigners for Kerry.
Still, some question the wisdom -- and the long-range effect.
North Carolina's Kohn says, "It sends a message to active-duty people: 'It's OK to be political.'"...
cnredd said:Just food for thought...Nothing factual...
This is from August 6, 2004, so understand that this was before the recent story that this has been questioned...
alphamale said:Retired Gen. Richard Myers, a former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and retired Gen. Tommy Franks, who developed and executed the Iraq invasion plan, both came out in support of Rumsfeld friday. Hmmmm ... didn't seem to make as big a splash in the liberal media as the others, did it.
Defending the General
The New Yorker's unfair slam on Wes Clark and his role in the Kosovo war.
By Fred Kaplan
Posted Thursday, Nov. 13, 2003, at 7:13 PM ET
...Kosovo was the United States' first post-Cold War experiment in "humanitarian intervention." Clark, who was the U.S. Supreme Allied Commander in Europe (and who, before that, had been a military aide in the Dayton negotiations over Bosnia), supported going to war in order to protect the Kosovars from the savagery of Serbian leader Slobodan Milosevic. Secretary of Defense William Cohen and the entire Joint Chiefs of Staff, who had no taste for interventions of practically any sort, opposed it...
...Clark was fired by Secretary of Defense William Cohen shortly after the war ended—and, just to make sure Clark didn't try to make an end-run, the chiefs leaked the firing to the Washington Post. The reasons for his dismissal seem clear: Clark had pushed a policy that Cohen and the chiefs had opposed (and, even after the war, continued to oppose); he went around them in his advocacy; he was too close, for the chiefs' taste, to Clinton (in signing Clark's release papers, Clinton was led to believe the move was a normal succession, not a dismissal); and, toward the end of the war, he pushed for a ground-invasion option that none of the Pentagon's top officials supported in the slightest.
alphamale said:Actually, this ends the big BIG "retired generals" media crapola. Now it's clear to the public that generals, like any group, have differences of opinion, as opposed to the previous clumsy lib media attempt to make it appear to be "Rumsfeld vs. the generals". The lib media hatches these little sorties against the Bush administration about once a week, but this one has flopped just like the others. :mrgreen:
aps said:It's flopped? How so?
Remember Brig. Gen. Terryl J. Schwalier? A decade ago, he was a rising star in the Air Force, wrapping up a successful tour as commander of the 4404th Wing (Provisional) in Saudi Arabia and on the list for promotion. Then, disaster struck his troops. On the night of June 25, 1996, an unprecedentedly large terrorist truck-bomb exploded outside the Khobar Towers military billet in Dhahran, killing 19 airmen and wounding 240 others.
Secretary of Defense William S. Cohen, facing political pressure to fix blame, went against the views of his military advisors and fingered Schwalier, saying that he had decided to deny the general his previously approved second star. Schwalier then immediately retired and dropped out of public view...(cnredd note - What a dick!)
...Yet the Schwalier case didn’t die. Far from it. As it happens, Schwalier and Air Force officials spent much of the past four-and-a-half years waging a behind-the-scenes struggle to clear his besmirched name. Specifically, they attempted to re-establish for Schwalier his major general’s rank. And they encountered an unexpected opponent—the Office of the Secretary of Defense...
...Hindsight
In the end, Cohen put aside these factors and came to his own conclusion, which was greatly to Schwalier’s detriment. On July 31, 1997, the former Maine Republican Senator declared Schwalier “could and should have done more” to defend Khobar Towers. He announced he would stop Schwalier’s promotion, though it already had been confirmed by the Senate and had been scheduled under the Air Force’s official appointment system...
...Following Cohen’s announcement, a reporter asked whether he had made Schwalier a scapegoat. “He’s not being made a scapegoat,” said Cohen. “He is being held accountable.”
In reality, Cohen was responding to political demands in Congress and the media for a sacrifice. That, at least, was the way it looked to Gen. Ronald R. Fogleman, USAF’s Chief of Staff. Unable to stomach what he saw coming, Fogleman several days earlier had stepped down from the Chief’s post and retired a year earlier than planned.
“You really do have to get up and look at yourself in the mirror every day and ask, ‘Do I feel honorable and clean?’ ” Fogleman told Aerospace Power Journal “I just could not begin to imagine facing the Air Force after Secretary Cohen made the decision to cancel General Schwalier’s promotion.”...
akyron said:I agree with you. They have succeeded wonderfully.
They have accomplished their goal of getting much publicity so they can sell books like hotcakes.
"Marine Gen. Anthony Zinni, a longtime critic of Rumsfeld and the administration's handling of the Iraq war, has been more vocal lately as he publicizes a new book, "The Battle for Peace.""
Lets see how fast Rumsfeld resigns.
I think he will soon anyway since hes offered it up twice(But not becasue of this. He is certainly getting on in years and probably tired of the BS by now)
Rumsfeld ahs offered his resignation twice, willing to do whatever he thought might be best for the country. Both times, the President refused to accept it. I'm glad he did and I hope you're correct that they stand their ground.aps said:I do not believe that Rummy will resign. I think even if he submitted his resignation to Bush that Bush would not accept it. I think that the criticism will cause Bush and Rummy to stand their ground.
Oh, and I hope the dissenting generals sell a lot of books.
Captain America said:Exactly..................
Not defending Rummy, but that speaks volumes KCC.
Raise the flag! We agree on something.!
aps said:Newbold (did I get that name correct?) wrote a short article for Time magazine. There's no book involved.
Follow the money. These generals have millions of reasons ($$$) for writing their books.Captain America said:Exactly..................
Not defending Rummy, but that speaks volumes KCC.
Raise the flag! We agree on something.!
aps said:I do not believe that Rummy will resign. I think even if he submitted his resignation to Bush that Bush would not accept it. I think that the criticism will cause Bush and Rummy to stand their ground.
aps said:Regardless, the retired generals speaking out against the Secretary of Defense is unprecedented, and is big news. Rumsfeld, stick around. You're only helping my party win in November. :lol: :lol:
hipsterdufus said:It's not big news when military subordinates support their civilian masters.
It seems utterly ironic to me that Myers and Franks say that it is not the job of the military to criticize the leadership of Rummy. Yet they seem to be perfectly ok using their pulpit to support him.
aps said:It's flopped? How so? Let's see, every political show I watch on Sundays, and even those I don't watch, discussed this issue. So saying it has flopped is, I believe, in your imagination.
alphamale said:Yaaaa yaaaa .... the LME talking airheads are blathering hi-speed, but ordinary people who are concerned with this will have heard General Myers comments, a former JCS Chief who reached the top of his profession, who served in a all the wars back to and including Vietnam, and who CERTAINLY knows what he's talking about.
The Mark said:I've been wondering why no one mentions all of the retired generals who didn't say anything.
There are probably about 4-6 thousand or so of them out there. Those few who decide to make a public statement just represent the healthy percent who disagree with the general consensus among them. (Pun intended)
In any group you chose, there will be those who disagree with many of the rest, this is to be expected. But to focus exclusively on those few and give little notice to how small a percentage they represent......That seems like irresponsible reporting to me.
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