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"Horseshoe Theory"

Z3n

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The Horseshoe theory states that the extreme left and the extreme right are closer to each other ideologically than either party would admit.

Is it true? Does an extreme leftist who would abolish any sort of economic authority and advocate welfare or communist states have that much difference between an extreme rightist who ultimately wants to abolish the state as a means of progress and social change? Are the two not the same means to the same end... smaller government, minarchism, or perhaps anarchism--- and are they both telling the same story?

Is "reactionary conservatism" a mechanism to put dictatorial fiat back in the power of the elite, and is progressive liberalism's ultimate end to put dictatorial control back in the power of "the vanguard of the proletariat"?


well? thoughts?
 
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Generally, but certainly not universally, any position taken to an irrational extreme is simply a form of insanity. The leaders who promote such philosophies are generally mad, cynical manipulators grasping for power, or both.

And of course, no one is ever an extremist in their own mind, "extremism" is a term for other people.
 
Generally, but certainly not universally, any position taken to an irrational extreme is simply a form of insanity. The leaders who promote such philosophies are generally mad, cynical manipulators grasping for power, or both.

And of course, no one is ever an extremist in their own mind, "extremism" is a term for other people.

what do you regard as an irrational extreme though?

and is it a universal definition or context dependant?
 
what do you regard as an irrational extreme though?

Symptoms include poor capitalization and spelling.

That said, in politics, any system which attempts to compel and limit rigid modes of thought. (Not necessarily of action.) Or one which assumes ownership of its adherents.



and is it a universal definition or context dependant?

All things known, indeed in order for anything at all to be known, there must be a context. It is as all things in politics, a practical definition.
 
I dont know. But the right believes in property rights, and they definitely believe in elitism (oddly enough, the people that tend to argue in favor of elitism are not in any form of elite and will never achieve that status)

I dont believe in property rights, or keeping elitism.
 
The Horseshoe theory states that the extreme left and the extreme right are closer to each other ideologically than either party would admit.

Is it true? Does an extreme leftist who would abolish any sort of economic authority and advocate welfare or communist states have that much difference between an extreme rightist who ultimately wants to abolish the state as a means of progress and social change? Are the two not the same means to the same end... smaller government, minarchism, or perhaps anarchism--- and are they both telling the same story?

Is "reactionary conservatism" a mechanism to put dictatorial fiat back in the power of the elite, and is progressive liberalism's ultimate end to put dictatorial control back in the power of "the vanguard of the proletariat"?






well? thoughts?
Interesting thought. When you look at the types of government they set they both have dictators. In the 40's we have Stalin and Hitler as an example.
 
Stalin was the dictator of the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics and Hitler was the dictator from the National Socialist Party, so their difference was primarily in how they chose to color their socialism. Hitler was hardly a rightwing conservative.

Re the Horseshoe Theory: the one thing the extremists on both ends have in common is their desire to impose their ideals on everybody, and I find that unacceptable. There have to be some agreed-upon rules for the conduct of society (e.g., the Ten Commandments), and the real difference in political philosophy is between authoritarianism and libertarianism. Personally I am firmly somewhere in the middle.

Just my opinion.
 
calling fascism socialism doesnt mean its actually socialism.

if i call a duck a shotgun, it doesnt make the duck a shotgun. nazis were in no way socialist as they striclty believed in elitism, whereas socialism explicitly believes in equality.

they cannot be the same, they cannot compromise.
 
I dont know. But the right believes in property rights, and they definitely believe in elitism (oddly enough, the people that tend to argue in favor of elitism are not in any form of elite and will never achieve that status)

I dont believe in property rights, or keeping elitism.

You're a self-admitted liberal, you bathe in elitism.
 
calling fascism socialism doesnt mean its actually socialism.

if i call a duck a shotgun, it doesnt make the duck a shotgun. nazis were in no way socialist as they striclty believed in elitism, whereas socialism explicitly believes in equality.

they cannot be the same, they cannot compromise.

Socialists don't believe in equality.

Socialists can't define equality. All they have is some misguided notion that everyone should be made equally poor by letting the government steal everything.
 
Socialists don't believe in equality.

Socialists can't define equality. All they have is some misguided notion that everyone should be made equally poor by letting the government steal everything.

socialists believe in equal access to resources.

Theres your definition.

Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism]Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
 
Both parties are just two sides of the same coin. they just act as a distraction, while guys with Cuban Cigars decide our future. Wake up America.
 
socialists believe in equal access to resources.

Theres your definition.

Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended

[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialism]Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame][/QUOTE

Socialism is a theory that doesn't work no matter how fair anyone tries to make it sound.
Suppose you were an average student, but worked your butt off and got an A.
Say, 10 students got A's, 10 got F's and numerous others got B's, C's or D's.
The board of education then gave all the students a C to be fair. How long would you and the other A students strive for A's. For that matter how long would the B,C, or D students strive for their grades.
Socialism ends up making all people poor because it punishes those who achieve.

As far as the horseshoe theory goes, not sure I get it, or believe it.
I want a whole different country than the far left wants.
 
socialists believe in equal access to resources.

Theres your definition.

Socialism refers to various theories of economic organization advocating public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources, and a society characterized by equal access to resources for all individuals with a method of compensation based on the amount of labor expended

Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/QUOTE

Socialism is a theory that doesn't work no matter how fair anyone tries to make it sound.
Suppose you were an average student, but worked your butt off and got an A.
Say, 10 students got A's, 10 got F's and numerous others got B's, C's or D's.
The board of education then gave all the students a C to be fair. How long would you and the other A students strive for A's. For that matter how long would the B,C, or D students strive for their grades.
Socialism ends up making all people poor because it punishes those who achieve.

As far as the horseshoe theory goes, not sure I get it, or believe it.
I want a whole different country than the far left wants.



that has absolutely nothing to do with socialism. I gave you the definition of socialism. you are wrong about what socialism is.

socialism does not give you good grades because others may get them. Equal access to resources and democratic ownership of the means of production says NOTHING about grades.
 
You're a self-admitted liberal, you bathe in elitism.

not true at all, most liberals are populists, and champion a government that is for the poor

Socialists don't believe in equality.

Socialists can't define equality. All they have is some misguided notion that everyone should be made equally poor by letting the government steal everything.

Equality is a facade. Allowing social legislation that makes sense to pass isn't
 
that has absolutely nothing to do with socialism. I gave you the definition of socialism. you are wrong about what socialism is.

socialism does not give you good grades because others may get them. Equal access to resources and democratic ownership of the means of production says NOTHING about grades.

It's a comparison. Socalisism tries to make everyone equal financially, (financially poor.) by "spreading the wealth around." It does away with all incentive to get ahead financially by hard work and a good education. Why should Jane slave away 80 hrs a week to get a business off the ground, when if successful, she has to share with Johnny who chose to flip hamburgers his whole life. Which is more fair? Jane has nice house in a nice neighborhood and drives a new car. and Johnny rents a small apartment and uses public transit. Or, should they both live in a poor neighbood, in run down houses and drive older cars? If you chose the latter than you prefer socialism, which you have a right to your opinion. However, how long do you think Jane will keep that incentive to work hard? How long do you think it will be before Jane and Johnny both have apartments and are using public transit? Socialism does not raise up the poor, it only tears down the achievers.
 
It's a comparison. Socalisism tries to make everyone equal financially, (financially poor.) by "spreading the wealth around." It does away with all incentive to get ahead financially by hard work and a good education. Why should Jane slave away 80 hrs a week to get a business off the ground, when if successful, she has to share with Johnny who chose to flip hamburgers his whole life. Which is more fair? Jane has nice house in a nice neighborhood and drives a new car. and Johnny rents a small apartment and uses public transit. Or, should they both live in a poor neighbood, in run down houses and drive older cars? If you chose the latter than you prefer socialism, which you have a right to your opinion. However, how long do you think Jane will keep that incentive to work hard? How long do you think it will be before Jane and Johnny both have apartments and are using public transit? Socialism does not raise up the poor, it only tears down the achievers.

Its a faulty comparison. which is a logical fallacy.

Saying socialism leads to poverty is cherry picking at best(I think you personally would probably call norway socialist, as well as a place like cuba however both of those countries have very different standards of living). Getting ahead financially is not the be all end all of life unless you actively want to be a slave to money.

Its funny that you mention education, because it seems that countries with better equality tend to have better education.
Poor Marks For U.S. Education System - CBS News


Jane shouldnt slave 80 hours a week, but if she chooses to thats her own thing. the point of socialism is to have people be able to do what they want whether or not they have the money to do it. So if I want to build houses for people i dont need to save up a lot of money, or any money at all in a completely equal system. I could just do it. so whatever janes business is, she could merely do it without financial incentive. she can do it because its what she likes to do.

"Jane has nice house in a nice neighborhood and drives a new car."

That is a logical fallacy. Its an appeal to wealth and it cannot be accepted.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_wealth]Argumentum ad crumenam - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

"and Johnny rents a small apartment and uses public transit.'
This is an appeal to poverty, also cannot be accepted.
[ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_poverty]Argumentum ad lazarum - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]

"Or, should they both live in a poor neighbood, in run down houses and drive older cars?"
Theres no indication that socialism leads to poverty, rundown houses or drive older cars.

"If you chose the latter than you prefer socialism,"
No. If you believe that capitalism leads to wealth and equality leads to poverty then Hong Kong should have the highest standard of living in the world as they have the freest markets. However, Norway actually has thehighest standard of living and ranks number one in human development

Norway still the world's best place to live - Aftenposten - News in English - Aftenposten.no
Human Development Index - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



im not saying that norway is truly socialist, but rather they have a fairly equal society. I do think most conservatives would consider norway to be socialist if they think the usa is socialist with obama...
 
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