Homeschooling

1069 · Dec 7, 2006

Johnny_Utah said:
Like everything, not everything is good for everybody.

Some kids will excel at homeschooling, but that is not because public school teachers are bad, it is because of other factors. Some kids need quiet settings, some kids get more parent support, but if a kid tries in public school and have parental support, they can and will do great. Public school teachers are mandated to be very qualified now. They go through almost as many years of study as lawyers many times. A teacher that has a Masters might have gone to school for up to 8 years of college.

Homeschooling in general, I have noticed, is full of introverts and psuedo-wierdos.

I agree.
Different strokes for different folks.

RightinNYC · Dec 7, 2006

Jerry said:
I didn't say that you said that is was a fact, I said that you say it as though it were fact.

What gave it away, the fact that I qualified all my points with 'think':roll:

I don't know where these magical schools exist that has all these diverse backgrounds....Hogwarts perhaps?.....but my experience is that schools are assigned by residential district, thus all the children attending are from the same general aria. This means that the diversity of the children a home schooler would interact with is no different than what/who a non-home schooler would interact with.

1) In many places such as NYC, children attend schools nowhere near their homes, with students from all over the city.

2) Even outside the city, in any public school, you're interacting with hundreds of different kids, 6 hours a day. How many do you interact with while being homeschooled?

Indeed. I see a greater value on my children than my income.

An interesting way to phrase it.

No, that's moral relativism.
That common measure you spoke of earlier regarding education....the same concept is present in morality as well.

According to my tools, which we all have, your decision is neither square, level, plum nor the correct dimension.

And that's great, best of luck with your tools. I have my own, and they serve me quite well.

RightinNYC · Dec 7, 2006

Rev. said:
It's great that you have that choice. But somehow you miss the point that not everyone does or can live in an area where there are "high quality public schools that offer advanced curricula..." If all American had equal access to a "high quality public education" why then do we have "No Child Left Behind" and citizen initiatives for vouchers (which, by the way, the government opposes. So much for the idea that the government education links provided earlier are "unbiased." The governement has proven itself to be VERY biased when it comes to education.)

One reason homeschoolers like myself homeschool is because they want their children to get a "high quality education" and they are more likely to get that at home.

And that's completely true. If I lived in an area with seriously sub-par public schools, I might consider private schooling. I think it would take a lot more to get me to consider homeschooling.

Granted. The ability to interact appropriately with others is a crucial skill. But I contest that public school is the best place to learn those skills.

Public school, unless it is part of an IEP, does not provide direct instruction in "social skills" beyond Kindergarten. The whole purpose of Kindergarten is to teach children how to behave in school...sit quietly while teacher talks, don't run in the hall, line up to go to library, line up to go to music, line up to go to the bus, ask permission to use the bathroom. Nowhere since I have graduated from highschool have I had to use any of these "skills." This was socialization specifically to the public school environment. Can a person be successful in life without ever having had to line up for the bus? Yes.

But people wait in line every day, at the supermarket, the bank, etc. Its a natural act.

But the "social skills" you all are so hot on...handling social interaction...are not directly taught in school anyway. "When somebody waves a greeting at you, it is socially proper to wave back." My kids must attend public school to learn that? "Use a fork to eat your green beans, but it's okay to use your fingers to eat the chicken nuggets." Which class must my child take to receive this instruction? And what if my child insists on eating his nuggets with a fork and his greenbeans with his fingers? Will someone correct him? If so, who...the cafeteria moniter who is refereeing a disgreement acroos the room?

Did I say they only get taught at school? No. I'd tell my kid that at dinner.

To say that "there is no better place to learn how to deal with bullies, become confident in yourself, interact with members of the opposite (or same, however you roll) sex, and deal with both fair and unfair grading systems" assumes several things:

1. "Becom[ing] confident in yourself" is a social skill. It's not...it's an emotional skill and follows a series of successful experiences. Not everyone can be successful in public school, and if you've read anything at all about learning theories (The Way They Learn by Cynthia Tobias; One Mind at a Time by Dr. Mel Levine; Better Late Than Early by Dr. Raymond Moore) it is clear that only a very small percentage of the population can be successful in Public School. So if self-confidence is based on success, and only a small portion of the population experiences success in school, then it seems that public school is the least likely environment for a child to develop self-confidence.

Where do you get support for this fallacious claim?

2. Public School is a naturally occuring environment. It's not. At no other time or place in life do you interact with 30 people your exact age for six hours a day. At home, at work, at the beach, at the grocery store...you must interact with people of all ages, experiences, socio-economic backgrounds etc. Not so in school. The demographics of a school are determined very much by location, and often by the tax base that support it. A child in public school will interact with children his exact age, developmental level, and similar life experience. There is limited contact with older and younger students, so the opportunities for watching how older students behave and being the model for younger students is lost.

Who said they're only your age? I had classes with people a couple years older, music/art with people 2 or 3 years older/younger, played sports with people 2/3 years younger, rode on the bus and played on the playground with people 4/5 years younger, etc.

3. Public Schools provide instruction for negotiating social situations that is unavailable anywhere else. Except for the recent interest in social instruction regarding harrassment, this is untrue. How does the school teach about boy/girl interaction? Is there someone standing by teaching a young man how to properly ask a girl out on a date (other than his geeky friends who prove nine times out of ten to be no help at all). Is there someone to guide the girl on how to properly turn down the young man when she is not interested (other than her air-head friends who prove nine times out of ten to be no help at all). Who will debrief them when the whole social situation goes bad?

And they learn that in homeschooling? I know that I learned a hell of a lot more about whether a girl was cute or liked me on the playground from actually interacting with them and discussing it with my friends than I would have from asking my mom.

In the past, the school's attempt to teach children proper social responses (Just Say No, D.A.R.E.) have proven largely unsuccessful. Kids still use drugs/start smoking/drink and drive/have unprotected sex.

File this under "duh"

You wanted statstics about how successfully socialized public school kids are compared to homeschool kids? That's where you'll find them...if socialization is the learning of the acceptable behaviors of a society, find out how many kids use drugs public school vs. homeschool. How many unplanned teen pregnancies are there public school vs. homeschool. How many kids get expelled from college public school vs. homeschool. How many kids end up in jail public school vs. homeschool. I don't have the statistics, but I'd wager that generally speaking, homeschool kids ARE successfully socialized because they understand the rules of society and obey them.

You're self selecting. The kind of parent who homeschools their child is likely to be significantly more wealthy than the average public school child, and is also (this part is from my own experience, not citing it as a fact) much more likely to be more controlling as to what the child does. Of course they're going to do less of those things.

1069 · Dec 7, 2006

It seems to me that we reached an unproductive impasse some posts back, and now we're just going around in circles.
What if, instead of debating "public and/or private school education versus homeschool education", we discussed "Homeschool: pros and cons" (we could also discuss "Public and/or private school education: pros and cons", if y'all want).
Because there are, of course, pros and cons to everything in life.
I think it would be interesting to hear one of the homeschool parents' perspective on what the "cons" of homeschooling are (we've already heard what they consider to be the "pros", although they can feel free to reiterate these once again, if they want to), what difficulties they've encountered, what concerns (if any) they have about it, etc.
Then those of us who have children in public and/or private school (or who attended or still attend public or private school ourselves) can talk about what we consider to be the pros and cons of public and/or private school education.
Does that sound like a good idea?
You see, instead of putting each other on the defensive (which results in nothing more but blind, blanket, partisan proclamations of superiority, as well as some general snarkiness on both sides, ie, "Home schooling is child abuse"... "I guess you value money more than you value your children"... etc), this way we can honestly critique the systems we know best, whether that's homeschooling or public schooling or whatever. And maybe we can all learn something about the pros and cons of different types of education.
Since there appear to be no unbiased statistics or empirical data on the issue (I've looked and looked, trust me) this is probably the only way we will learn anything.

CaptainCourtesy · Dec 8, 2006

Rev. said:
Captain did you read this one at all?

Research on Homeschooling Socialization (Learn in Freedom!)

Yup, I read this one a couple of times.

Because the website is Christian, you may have rejected this as biased at the outset. However, this IS exactly the information you are looking for. I've spent two days trying to locate the dissertation (I think I found it at the University of Flordia library) so I could bring that to the table, and then realized I was looking for the work of Shyers instead of Smedley...

Anywhoo...the Vineland is a test I am well familiar with. It is administered by parent interview/direct observation and looks at four areas of development: fine/gross motor, language, social, and self-help. Questions include: "Does the child respond to his name...tie his shoes...ride a bike...make eye contact...speak four word sentences..." and the responses are "Always, Frequently, Often, Rarely, Never." It is a tool used to screen for developmental disabilities such as autism. My son has taken it four times.

It is unlikely that results could be skewed to read "more sociable" or "less sociable" (believe me...I've tried). Especially with more than one person administering the tests and contributing to the answers. The focus of the test is social skills and seeing how they've developed in comparison to other areas of development...so this is exactly the kind of test results we've been seeking. Regardless of the religious affliation of the website owner or Thomas Smedley, the results are unbiased and I propose these results be accepted as valid.

I just did a search for Radford University

About RU

It's a public college, rated in the top 25 Master's Programs in the South by U.S.News and World Report. IF Mr. Smedley is a Christian, I suspect it would have no bearing at RU. Again, validates the findings (IMO).

:rofl I just found this article which appears to be written by our Mr. Smedley...he appears to be an angry Libertarian, but "God" did not appear once in his article. :rofl

The Libertarian Home Schooler, Thomas C. Smedley

What a riot!

So, I make a motion these (impartial) results be accepted. :smile:

Sorry, as I said I had read this several times, and rejected it as valid research (the Smedley study) for a variety of reasons.

1. Too small sample size (20 and 13 is tiny)

2. Agenda: Smedley, based on the article you linked (one I had seen before, also) seems like a rabid homeschool proponent. One should question his imparitality in research.

3. Non-representative population: the homeschoolers chosen for his study, were 'religious homeschoolers' (NHEN Thoughts on Protecting Children in Homeschooling Families - Homeschooling Information from the National Home Education Network endnote #9). This is good example of the bias I have been finding and showing.

So, sorry. based on these confounds, this study cannot be accepted as impartial.

Also, though the Smedley study doesn't, the Shyer study utilizes a research tool that many pro-homeschooled studies use and on which both you and I have rejected as being not a good sole determinant for positive socialization: self-concept.

tecoyah · Dec 8, 2006

A few interesting tidbits....something to chew on anyway:

ARE HOMESCHOOLERS PREPARED FOR COLLEGE?

Toch (as quoted in Galloway, 1995), estimates that 50% of homeschooled children attend college, the same percentage as children educated in public schools. But are these students skilled enough to compete successfully with conventionally-schooled students in the college setting? Galloway (1995) concludes that homeschoolers and traditionally educated students demonstrate similar academic preparedness for college and academic achievement. And according to Rudner (1999), achievement test scores of homeschooled students are high. The students' average scores were typicality in the 70th to 80th percentile, with 25% of homeschool students enrolled one or more grades above their age-level peers in public and private schools. Christopher Klicka, Senior Counsel for the Home School Legal Defense Association, reports that homeschoolers tend to score above the national average on both the SAT and ACT, the primary tests used by colleges in evaluating college applicants. A study of 2219 students who reported their homeschooled status on the SAT in 1999 showed that these students scored an average of 1083--67 points above the national average of 1016; similarly, the 3616 homeschooled students who took the ACT scored an average of 22.7--1.7 points above the national average of 21 (Klicka, 2002).

Statistics are limited as of yet, as the homeschooled population is still below 2%....but those who are....seem to fare well in college:

HOW DO HOMESCHOOLERS FARE IN COLLEGE?

"Current evidence indicates that homeschoolers' college academic performance is comparable to that of traditionally educated students. Oliveira's study (as cited in Galloway, 1995) found no significant differences in critical thinking skills among college freshmen who had graduated from different types of high schools, including home schools, public schools, conventional Christian schools, and accelerated Christian education schools (Galloway, 1995). Sutton and Galloway (2000) also investigated the undergraduate success of college graduates from home schools, private schools, and public schools nationwide. They used 40 indicators of college success that reflected five domains of learning outcomes-achievement, leadership, professional aptitude, physical activity, and social behavior. They concluded that, overall the students from all settings received equivalent educations."

As for the Cons of homeschooling....

1) It is a large amount of work, and can be difficult on the parents.

2) Depending on your area, extra curricular activities may be hard to come by. (we are fortunate to have a big population of homeschoolers here)

3) State testing requirements can be more advanced for homeschoolers, than a regents exam.

4) You still pay school taxes, whether your kids attend one or not.

5) You always seem to feel you are not doing as good a job as you could.....heh.

Jerry · Dec 8, 2006

RightatNYU said:
What gave it away, the fact that I qualified all my points with 'think':roll:

You agree with me then. Thank you.

RightatNYU said:
1) In many places such as NYC, children attend schools nowhere near their homes, with students from all over the city.

Now there's an interesting dynamic I hadn't realized. The socialization argument gains and looses merit depending on where the family is located. Good food for thought.

RightatNYU said:
2) Even outside the city, in any public school, you're interacting with hundreds of different kids, 6 hours a day. How many do you interact with while being homeschooled?

The premise that interaction with a bigger number of people = superior social development is not established, so I have nothing to refute.

RightatNYU said:
And that's great, best of luck with your tools. I have my own, and they serve me quite well.

Yeah......I speak from a carpenter's POV.....try showing up to a job site with your own version of a framing square or your own unit of measurement on a tape and see how far that gets you.

Relativism and personal choice/preference has its place. It matters not what brand you proffer...be it the First Church of DeWALT, the CRAFTSMAN Day Saints, or even the pagan Black & DeckerSociety. Some brands are better for some people but not for others. It’s a matter of preference.

What really matters is that regardless of what brand of tape you have, an inch needs to equal in inch. Not what you personally feel or reason and inch should be, but an objective inch.

Moral relativists are as workers on a site, each with their own unit of measure and idea of what "square" is.

I am greatly concerned as to what sort of societal structure we will end up with with relativism in charge. Taking Rome as an example (to say nothing for other historical examples like Sodom) the Relativist structure is not sound.

cheeseburger · Dec 12, 2006

Victorious Art said:
Why do you think it sucks?
I think it's perfect. Sure, it divides the people a little, but so what? If you want to spend a lot of money on an education, you can have a great teacher, and therefor learn much more.
But if you're poor, well then... Too bad for you :lol:

Seriously now, i don't see the downside of it. There is still a choice between going in a regular school, and homeschooling. If you are rich, then be my guest study home for lots of money, and if you are poor, study in a regular school. I think this is brilliant

Ok, first of all "if you're poor, well then... Too bad for you :lol:" you're an idiot. But that's not what I want to discuss.

Divides people a little? It divides people alot!
The children that are homeschooled don't get the same social experience at all. Sure the education might be good, and they learn the same as other kids when it comes to fact. But when it comes to debates and different peoples opinions, all they have to rely on is their teacher and what the teacher thinks, they don't get as many perspectives as children who go to school. So all of you who accuse people of getting their political view or whatever from their parents, homeschooled kids really do. They do not have the same opportunity of having an opinion of their own, isn't that a problem worth discussing?

tecoyah · Dec 12, 2006

cheeseburger said:
So all of you who accuse people of getting their political view or whatever from their parents, homeschooled kids really do. They do not have the same opportunity of having an opinion of their own, isn't that a problem worth discussing?

Yes...it is. My opinion on the socialization issue might seem a bit Bigotted in a way....but its a reality to me, and my children. Have you spent much time talking to the average American Youth today? Good, then you know just how informed they are on issues pertinent to education, and world affairs. Personally I dont care if my Kids know who Brittany Spears is, or how to use Ebonics in a social setting. I dont much care to have my Kids learn about Violence and Drugs from firsthand experience, until I have the opportunity to prepare them for this wonderful aspect of School life.
As it is, my Kids spend time with relatively moderate children and parents, in a homeschooling community of like minded individuals intent of providing a bit more guidance than the local schools are capable of giving. Granted this expendature of time and resources is not for everyone, and might be a serious burden at times.....but my kids are well worth the effort involved and I am confident the results will be worth it.

Rev. · Dec 12, 2006

cheeseburger said:
Divides people a little? It divides people alot!
The children that are homeschooled don't get the same social experience at all.

You're right, homeschooled kids don't get the same social experience...thank goodness!

cheeseburger said:
Sure the education might be good, and they learn the same as other kids when it comes to fact. But when it comes to debates and different peoples opinions, all they have to rely on is their teacher and what the teacher thinks, they don't get as many perspectives as children who go to school.

Every book is a teacher. My children have read many many books (probably more than your average public-schooler) and have therefore been exposed to many many different people's ideas and opinions.

"Homeschool" does not mean just sitting at the kitchen table doing lessons all day. That is "school at home" and what most HSers I know are trying to avoid. Many homeschoolers join co-ops, clubs (like 4-H), debate teams, sport teams, civics leagues and get opinions, ideas and perspectives there as well.

cheeseburger said:
So all of you who accuse people of getting their political view or whatever from their parents, homeschooled kids really do. They do not have the same opportunity of having an opinion of their own, isn't that a problem worth discussing?

It's always suspicious when a child takes the same stand on an issue as the parent :roll: It's so much better when children are left to come to their own conclusions about matters. There was a mock election in our state during the recent gubinetorial race. One school had 100% of the students vote for a particular candidate. They voted for him because of his name...Woodcock. Now THAT'S wisdom!!:mrgreen:

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