Health Insurance vs Medicare for All

Ok, tell me why anyone would defend the current system.

Typical monthly health insurance premium: $1500 to $2000, half of which is a burden on private business. Deductibles ranging from $2000 to $5000. Co-pays that can reach $10,000.

So, at best, if you are a healthy family, you are paying $18,000 a year for insurance. If you are a sick one, it could be as high as $35,000 after maxing out deductibles and copay. And, that's if you are lucky enough to have your illness covered in full by the scam company sucking away your money. Sometimes, you get the "sorry, not covered" response. And, other times, you get sued by hospitals because your insurance refused to pay the bill in full, a trick they use to max out your out-of-pocket expensive and minimize their own liability.

But, yet, millions of people in the US believe upending this broken system is the most horrible thing ever. That any politician who slams it hard and wants to replace it is advocating Socialism! They are a Commie! A Pinko! You get the drift.

Who honestly believes that bull****?

calamity said:

Ok, tell me why anyone would defend the current system.

Typical monthly health insurance premium: $1500 to $2000, half of which is a burden on private business. Deductibles ranging from $2000 to $5000. Co-pays that can reach $10,000.

So, at best, if you are a healthy family, you are paying $18,000 a year for insurance. If you are a sick one, it could be as high as $35,000 after maxing out deductibles and copay. And, that's if you are lucky enough to have your illness covered in full by the scam company sucking away your money. Sometimes, you get the "sorry, not covered" response. And, other times, you get sued by hospitals because your insurance refused to pay the bill in full, a trick they use to max out your out-of-pocket expensive and minimize their own liability.

But, yet, millions of people in the US believe upending this broken system is the most horrible thing ever. That any politician who slams it hard and wants to replace it is advocating Socialism! They are a Commie! A Pinko! You get the drift.

Who honestly believes that bull****?

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On the other hand, if you are a healthy individual, you could choose to buy a catastrophic insurance plan, have extremely reduced premiums and deductibles. You could pay for over the counter meds to take care of the sniffles and the insurance would take care of that broken leg you got skateboarding.

But under medicare for all, you would be slapped upside the head with higher taxes and get nothing out of it except the urge to run to the doctor every time you sneeze (just in case you get the sniffles, you know).

Mycroft said:

On the other hand, if you are a healthy individual, you could choose to buy a catastrophic insurance plan, have extremely reduced premiums and deductibles. You could pay for over the counter meds to take care of the sniffles and the insurance would take care of that broken leg you got skateboarding.

But under medicare for all, you would be slapped upside the head with higher taxes and get nothing out of it except the urge to run to the doctor every time you sneeze (just in case you get the sniffles, you know).

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Ah, so you believe the bull****. Thanks.

Personally, I struggle to understand why there is so much resistance to improve or replace the health insurance in this country.

Mycroft said:

On the other hand, if you are a healthy individual, you could choose to buy a catastrophic insurance plan, have extremely reduced premiums and deductibles. You could pay for over the counter meds to take care of the sniffles and the insurance would take care of that broken leg you got skateboarding.

But under medicare for all, you would be slapped upside the head with higher taxes and get nothing out of it except the urge to run to the doctor every time you sneeze (just in case you get the sniffles, you know).

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Do you really think your catastrophic coverage will pay ALL or even come remotely close to covering the actual cost of cancer care, heart attack, stroke, etc. Look it over closely, because most of these plans will pay about 200.00 per day for a max ## of days in the hospital for a stay that will cost far more than 200.00 per day....not to mention after care costs and prescriptions, diagnostic testing, lab work, heaven help you if you need surgery on top of it all and so on and so on. Kiss goodbye that little 200.00 per day and that 5-10-15 or 20k cash option if you could afford it on your plan. That is how supplement insurance works...it pays a set $ amount towards a covered benefit IF they deem it a covered benefit and after that, everything is your responsibilty not the insurance plan you thought would protect you in event of a catastrophic illness. Working in this industry allows me to see and hear all the stories, tears, fears, and anger of those who THOUGHT they had it covered until they got sick!

calamity said:

Ok, tell me why anyone would defend the current system.

Typical monthly health insurance premium: $1500 to $2000, half of which is a burden on private business. Deductibles ranging from $2000 to $5000. Co-pays that can reach $10,000.

So, at best, if you are a healthy family, you are paying $18,000 a year for insurance. If you are a sick one, it could be as high as $35,000 after maxing out deductibles and copay. And, that's if you are lucky enough to have your illness covered in full by the scam company sucking away your money. Sometimes, you get the "sorry, not covered" response. And, other times, you get sued by hospitals because your insurance refused to pay the bill in full, a trick they use to max out your out-of-pocket expensive and minimize their own liability.

But, yet, millions of people in the US believe upending this broken system is the most horrible thing ever. That any politician who slams it hard and wants to replace it is advocating Socialism! They are a Commie! A Pinko! You get the drift.

Who honestly believes that bull****?

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Red:
One reason is that the defender holds an equity position in the health insurance industry.

calamity said:

Ok, tell me why anyone would defend the current system.

Typical monthly health insurance premium: $1500 to $2000, half of which is a burden on private business. Deductibles ranging from $2000 to $5000. Co-pays that can reach $10,000.

So, at best, if you are a healthy family, you are paying $18,000 a year for insurance. If you are a sick one, it could be as high as $35,000 after maxing out deductibles and copay. And, that's if you are lucky enough to have your illness covered in full by the scam company sucking away your money. Sometimes, you get the "sorry, not covered" response. And, other times, you get sued by hospitals because your insurance refused to pay the bill in full, a trick they use to max out your out-of-pocket expensive and minimize their own liability.

But, yet, millions of people in the US believe upending this broken system is the most horrible thing ever. That any politician who slams it hard and wants to replace it is advocating Socialism! They are a Commie! A Pinko! You get the drift.

Who honestly believes that bull****?

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Kamala has a better idea. Give poor Americans by the tens of millions monthly cash gifts and put everybody on government healthcare at no personal cost. Don't worry about the $3 to $5 trillion yearly tax bill.

marke said:

Kamala has a better idea. Give poor Americans by the tens of millions monthly cash gifts and put everybody on government healthcare at no personal cost. Don't worry about the $3 to $5 trillion yearly tax bill.

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Yup. In this terrible system it would actually be easier to live on unemployment where you would get free medicare
Working would be too costly

calamity said:

Ok, tell me why anyone would defend the current system.

Typical monthly health insurance premium: $1500 to $2000, half of which is a burden on private business. Deductibles ranging from $2000 to $5000. Co-pays that can reach $10,000.

So, at best, if you are a healthy family, you are paying $18,000 a year for insurance. If you are a sick one, it could be as high as $35,000 after maxing out deductibles and copay. And, that's if you are lucky enough to have your illness covered in full by the scam company sucking away your money. Sometimes, you get the "sorry, not covered" response. And, other times, you get sued by hospitals because your insurance refused to pay the bill in full, a trick they use to max out your out-of-pocket expensive and minimize their own liability.

But, yet, millions of people in the US believe upending this broken system is the most horrible thing ever. That any politician who slams it hard and wants to replace it is advocating Socialism! They are a Commie! A Pinko! You get the drift.

Who honestly believes that bull****?

Click to expand...

I am in favor of finding fixes to our HC system. In fact was in favor of Medicare for all rather than ACA. Still think it is workable but people have to understand the complications. For example most people who are not covered by the government via Medicade,Medicare or the VA have have the majority of their costs paid by their employer. So we have to have an adult discussion of who will pick up those costs.

Many large companies are actually self-insured. Insurance companies are the administrators of the policies of the companies. So there is no one great evil that if we just fix all our cost problems go away.

calamity said:

Ok, tell me why anyone would defend the current system.

Typical monthly health insurance premium: $1500 to $2000, half of which is a burden on private business. Deductibles ranging from $2000 to $5000. Co-pays that can reach $10,000.

So, at best, if you are a healthy family, you are paying $18,000 a year for insurance. If you are a sick one, it could be as high as $35,000 after maxing out deductibles and copay. And, that's if you are lucky enough to have your illness covered in full by the scam company sucking away your money. Sometimes, you get the "sorry, not covered" response. And, other times, you get sued by hospitals because your insurance refused to pay the bill in full, a trick they use to max out your out-of-pocket expensive and minimize their own liability.

But, yet, millions of people in the US believe upending this broken system is the most horrible thing ever. That any politician who slams it hard and wants to replace it is advocating Socialism! They are a Commie! A Pinko! You get the drift.

Who honestly believes that bull****?

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I am not allowed to answer that question in accordance with the rules.

However, I can say that the people who say that bull**** in their posts are saying something very stupid, very dishonest, or both. Quite a lot of developed nations have single-payer and it operates quite efficiently. The biggest complaint some of those people make is generally based on some story about a guy complaining he had to wait for a non-emergency appointment. (Which also happens here).

straykatz said:

Personally, I struggle to understand why there is so much resistance to improve or replace the health insurance in this country.

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because people think that the government is more capable than you in knowing what is best for your healthcare.
the government has proven itself 100% inept at actually doing this.

the solution is simple insurance is a hedge against something bad happening to you.
this is how we treat all forms of insurance except health insurance.

health insurance has to cover every sniffle, sneeze and cough someone has. this leads to higher costs and higher usage rates.
on top of that doctors have to order 1m un-needed tests to cover you from suing them.

I have always been a fan of treating health insurance like car insurance.
you pay for the sniffles, coughs, and sneezes and the insurance will cover you in case of an accident.

by dropping out every day uses and putting in a HSA system we can cover pretty much everyone while making sure if you get cancer you are covered.
the only thing you have to pay for how much insurance will cover. 70-100%.
the more covered the more it costs, but you can pay for it out of your HSA as well.

no one has what say in what doctor you see or treatment you get.

straykatz said:

Do you really think your catastrophic coverage will pay ALL or even come remotely close to covering the actual cost of cancer care, heart attack, stroke, etc. Look it over closely, because most of these plans will pay about 200.00 per day for a max ## of days in the hospital for a stay that will cost far more than 200.00 per day....not to mention after care costs and prescriptions, diagnostic testing, lab work, heaven help you if you need surgery on top of it all and so on and so on. Kiss goodbye that little 200.00 per day and that 5-10-15 or 20k cash option if you could afford it on your plan. That is how supplement insurance works...it pays a set $ amount towards a covered benefit IF they deem it a covered benefit and after that, everything is your responsibilty not the insurance plan you thought would protect you in event of a catastrophic illness. Working in this industry allows me to see and hear all the stories, tears, fears, and anger of those who THOUGHT they had it covered until they got sick!

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I don't think you really understand what "catastrophic insurance" is. Here...this will help you: https://www.insurance.com/health-in...nd-cons-of-catastrophic-health-insurance.aspx

The overarching point I was trying to make is that "medicare for all" takes away choice and makes you pay whether you need it or not. That's bad government.

calamity said:

Ok, tell me why anyone would defend the current system.

Typical monthly health insurance premium: $1500 to $2000, half of which is a burden on private business. Deductibles ranging from $2000 to $5000. Co-pays that can reach $10,000.

So, at best, if you are a healthy family, you are paying $18,000 a year for insurance. If you are a sick one, it could be as high as $35,000 after maxing out deductibles and copay. And, that's if you are lucky enough to have your illness covered in full by the scam company sucking away your money. Sometimes, you get the "sorry, not covered" response. And, other times, you get sued by hospitals because your insurance refused to pay the bill in full, a trick they use to max out your out-of-pocket expensive and minimize their own liability.

But, yet, millions of people in the US believe upending this broken system is the most horrible thing ever. That any politician who slams it hard and wants to replace it is advocating Socialism! They are a Commie! A Pinko! You get the drift.

Who honestly believes that bull****?

Click to expand...

A few things.

1. If these company are "scams," then you shouldn't have health insurance period. Why pay, according to your figures, $18,000 a year, to a scam company? I believe Social Security is a scam however I have really no choice in the matter. You do however have a choice of not getting health care.

2. Nobody is forcing these people to have children. That is a life choice they made which costs a lot of money.

3. I can only support a new system if it only covers something that is life threatening. The proposals Demorat socialists are proposing are making so everything is covered - life threatening or not.

Things that shouldn't be covered through single payer:

Gastric bypass surgery
Most cosmetic/plastic surgery
Anything caused by smoking cigarettes
Nursing home care
Acupuncture
Dental/Vision
Weight Loss
Preventative tests

I do not want a system where these things are automatically provided to millions of people that cannot pay for them. It just is a terrible idea.

calamity said:

Ok, tell me why anyone would defend the current system.

Typical monthly health insurance premium: $1500 to $2000, half of which is a burden on private business. Deductibles ranging from $2000 to $5000. Co-pays that can reach $10,000.

So, at best, if you are a healthy family, you are paying $18,000 a year for insurance. If you are a sick one, it could be as high as $35,000 after maxing out deductibles and copay. And, that's if you are lucky enough to have your illness covered in full by the scam company sucking away your money. Sometimes, you get the "sorry, not covered" response. And, other times, you get sued by hospitals because your insurance refused to pay the bill in full, a trick they use to max out your out-of-pocket expensive and minimize their own liability.

But, yet, millions of people in the US believe upending this broken system is the most horrible thing ever. That any politician who slams it hard and wants to replace it is advocating Socialism! They are a Commie! A Pinko! You get the drift.

Who honestly believes that bull****?

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many of the same folks who believed that the "you're fired" conman / 80s estate shyster would turn the country into big rock candy mountain.

Mycroft said:

The overarching point I was trying to make is that "medicare for all" takes away choice and makes you pay whether you need it or not. That's bad government.

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All insurance makes you pay whether you need it or not.

Mycroft said:

...but under medicare for all, you would be slapped upside the head with higher taxes and get nothing out of it except the urge to run to the doctor every time you sneeze (just in case you get the sniffles, you know).

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Hey as a taxpayer you pay for roads you'll never drive on


Universal Healthcare is a great idea but it is VERY expensive.

It worked very well in the UK for many years but as the population gets older, the financial strains start to show.

In 1986 I dislocated my shoulder, had to have two operations...the cost to me �£0.00.


No worries about showing insurance cards...just check into the hospital, get the op.
No bills afterwards.

straykatz said:

Personally, I struggle to understand why there is so much resistance to improve or replace the health insurance in this country.

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This.

Greenbeard said:

All insurance makes you pay whether you need it or not.

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Shh...some people might suddenly realize that's a form of socialism. And, then their heads will explode.

Greenbeard said:

All insurance makes you pay whether you need it or not.

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Nobody forces people to get car or life insurance. Democrats want to force people to get health insurance. There is no penalty anymore. They want to treat it like entitlement benefits where it is automatically taken out of your check and put it into a ponzi scheme like system.

Greenbeard said:

All insurance makes you pay whether you need it or not.

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Of course, but it's your choice. Not so with medicare for all.

Bucky said:

Nobody forces people to get car or life insurance. Democrats want to force people to get health insurance. There is no penalty anymore. They want to treat it like entitlement benefits where it is automatically taken out of your check and put it into a ponzi scheme like system.

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If you have a job, health insurance is already taken out of your check.

calamity said:

If you have a job, health insurance is already taken out of your check.

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Correct, although you do not have to get health insurance. It is optional. You are advocating treating health care like SSI.

Bucky said:

Correct, although you do not have to get health insurance. It is optional. You are advocating treating health care like SSI.

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Health care should be compulsory.

It should not be optional - especially if you are self employed and have dependents.

You should not have to option to "take a risk" and go without health insurance for you and your family for a year.

Mycroft said:

On the other hand, if you are a healthy individual, you could choose to buy a catastrophic insurance plan, have extremely reduced premiums and deductibles. You could pay for over the counter meds to take care of the sniffles and the insurance would take care of that broken leg you got skateboarding.

But under medicare for all, you would be slapped upside the head with higher taxes and get nothing out of it except the urge to run to the doctor every time you sneeze (just in case you get the sniffles, you know).

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I wouldn't say you get nothing out of it. You get to see your sick mother or grandmother get the medical help they need without losing the house. You get to see prevention and actual health be the focus, rather than profit, which will stabilize costs, lowering them for the patients. You will get the security of knowing that, when and if your own health fails, you have those professionals there to help, not just selling pills.

Only a few, idiots, have the urge to run to the doctor every time they sneeze. Most of us find the waiting and the invasive parts a drag and have jobs to do any way.

calamity said:

Ok, tell me why anyone would defend the current system.

Typical monthly health insurance premium: $1500 to $2000, half of which is a burden on private business. Deductibles ranging from $2000 to $5000. Co-pays that can reach $10,000.

So, at best, if you are a healthy family, you are paying $18,000 a year for insurance. If you are a sick one, it could be as high as $35,000 after maxing out deductibles and copay. And, that's if you are lucky enough to have your illness covered in full by the scam company sucking away your money. Sometimes, you get the "sorry, not covered" response. And, other times, you get sued by hospitals because your insurance refused to pay the bill in full, a trick they use to max out your out-of-pocket expensive and minimize their own liability.

But, yet, millions of people in the US believe upending this broken system is the most horrible thing ever. That any politician who slams it hard and wants to replace it is advocating Socialism! They are a Commie! A Pinko! You get the drift.

Who honestly believes that bull****?

Click to expand...

The nature of US health insurance -- coverage made available for sale, sale of it, purchase of it, and reimbursement of claims -- is more than sufficiently and existentially "SNAFU'd" that one's case for fixing it isn't abetted by overstating the qualities you have. Moreover, despite Trump's incorrect assertion, "nobody knew health insurance could be complicated," health insurance is a complex matter, and everyone who's seriously pondered it has for decades known so. Consequently, discussions about it aren't abetted by incomplete characterizations of the gross and net costs insured persons incur for health insurance coverage.


Blue:
I suspect you have cited figures from Section 1, "Cost of Health Insurance," from the Kaiser Foundation's (KFF) analysis/reporting. I don't dispute KFF's figures for they are close enough to the quoted annual premium sums my firm's benefit coordination team evaluated and reported to senior management along with a recommendation for incremental changes in the portion of the premium the firm would pay and the portion we'd pass on to employees.

That said to obtain a clearer picture of what individual insured persons, those buying employer-sponsored health insurance, pay out-of-pocket for their coverage, one must turn to Section 6, "Worker and Employer Contributions for Premiums," of the same report. There one'll find the following two charts that include the sums you cited along with the employer subsidy component.

Those two charts make abundantly clear why people are reticent to risk suffering major changes to the general nature of the health insurance coverage structure/market in the US: in the scheme of things, they aren't paying much for health insurance. Does that mean health insurance doesn't cost too much? No. It means that people like being on the "benefitting side" of extant moral hazard in the health insurance market. (I suspect most folks haven't taken and comprehended the concepts taught in a principles of economics course; thus they have no idea that that's the term for what they like. That they don't isn't a big deal provided folks who analyze the matter do.)


Of course, not everyone obtains employer subsidized health insurance; as the charts below show, the average out-of-pocket costs for such folks are roughly in line with those paid by employer-subsidized insured folks.






The above figures pertain, as indicated, to folks who don't have an employer or other subsidy associated with their premium liability/payments.


Red:
The lower limit of the range you've noted strains credulity because the average deductible amount is $1500.

• Sep 2018 - Average Health Care Deductible Nearly $1,500 for Individual Coverage Through an Employer Plan
  • "The average [one] can expect to pay is $1,491 with single coverage and $2,788 with family coverage."
• See also: the KFF report on deductibles, Section 7. There again, you'll find the range you've cited doesn't comport with their calculations.