Greenland’s Melting Ice Nears a ‘Tipping Point,’

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Visbek said:

lol

The Sierra Nevada Field Campus is, in their own words, a "nature camp for adults."

This summer, Mr (not Dr) Steele is teaching a class on birdsongs. The Campus is also teaching classes on watercolor painting and "Copperplate Calligraphy Illuminated by the Sierra."

They don't do climate research. He does not do climate research. He basically maintained a small eco preserve. Running that center, to put it mildly, does not in any way establish his credentials in the field of climate science.

(Finding out what the Field Campus actually is took me about 2 minutes. Maybe you should have done the same, before proclaiming that running it makes him an expert in an unrelated field.)

The process by which he became a climate change denier also trashes his credibility (when it comes to climate science, not his work at the Nature Camp For Adults). He basically looked at the max daily temps for one station (Tahoe), saw it wasn't changing much, and decided that climate change was all a result of ENSOs. To put it mildly, that sounds rather delusional, since we can remove the impact of ENSOs and still see temperatures rising. And, of course, it is wholly unscientific to measure global temperatures by looking at the thermometer in your backyard.

As usual, deniers will cling to anyone who can claim to be a "scientist" to bolster their views -- even when their scientific training (e.g. degrees in biology, work experience in ornithology) have very little to do with climate science. Any port in a storm....

Click to expand...

Seems like a fine institution to me.

[h=3]Sierra Nevada Field Campus - San Francisco State University[/h]
[url]https://sierra.sfsu.edu/
[/URL]

San Francisco State University's Sierra Nevada Field Campus is dedicated to promoting an understanding and appreciation of the biological diversity, ...

What is not fine is you ducking Steele's important and well-sourced points to engage in cowardly ad hominem. I hoped for better.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Visbek said:

lol

The Sierra Nevada Field Campus is, in their own words, a "nature camp for adults."

This summer, Mr (not Dr) Steele is teaching a class on birdsongs. The Campus is also teaching classes on watercolor painting and "Copperplate Calligraphy Illuminated by the Sierra."

They don't do climate research. He does not do climate research. He basically maintained a small eco preserve. Running that center, to put it mildly, does not in any way establish his credentials in the field of climate science.

(Finding out what the Field Campus actually is took me about 2 minutes. Maybe you should have done the same, before proclaiming that running it makes him an expert in an unrelated field.)

The process by which he became a climate change denier also trashes his credibility (when it comes to climate science, not his work at the Nature Camp For Adults). He basically looked at the max daily temps for one station (Tahoe), saw it wasn't changing much, and decided that climate change was all a result of ENSOs. To put it mildly, that sounds rather delusional, since we can remove the impact of ENSOs and still see temperatures rising. And, of course, it is wholly unscientific to measure global temperatures by looking at the thermometer in your backyard.

As usual, deniers will cling to anyone who can claim to be a "scientist" to bolster their views -- even when their scientific training (e.g. degrees in biology, work experience in ornithology) have very little to do with climate science. Any port in a storm....

Click to expand...

Well... it’s pretty close.

More science than Jack, at least.

Jack Hays said:

Still dodging. Cowardice.

Click to expand...

Black knighting does not become you.

Threegoofs said:

Black knighting does not become you.

Click to expand...

I like it.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Visbek said:

Incorrect. It says that about half of the ice sheet melts at some point during the year.

The ice sheet is 660,000 square miles. So basically, the area that had some melt in 2018 is around the same size as Texas.

If you look at the FULL graphic, and read the FULL article, you'd know that what they're saying does not support your skepticism. E.g. they point out how there were multiple massive melt spikes during the summer, which were among the largest on record; how the glaciers are flowing faster now than in the past; and as a result, even with above-average snowfall in 2018, the ice sheet won't change much this year.

Oh, and the NSIDC are the ones that produced the data used for this chart....

I hate to disappoint you, but talk about Greenland losing ice mass is not going to stop any time soon, because Greenland's ice sheet will not stop losing ice mass any time soon.

Click to expand...

Whether Greenland or Antarctica for that matter, gains or loses ice, has nearly
nothing to do with temperature and everything to do with how much snow falls
and how much ice calves into the sea. All the palaver about melting is just so
much BS.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Steve Case said:

Whether Greenland or Antarctica for that matter, gains or loses ice, has nearly
nothing to do with temperature...

Click to expand...

lol.. fail

and everything to do with how much snow falls
and how much ice calves into the sea. All the palaver about melting is just so
much BS.

Click to expand...

Yeah, it's not like we have decades of objective data showing that the ice mass losses of Greenland's ice sheet is accelerating. Unless, y'know, we do. E.g. Accelerating changes in ice mass within Greenland, and the ice sheet’s sensitivity to atmospheric forcing | PNAS


And since you apparently accept NASA as a reliable source:

The mass of the Greenland ice sheet has rapidly declined in the last several years due to surface melting and iceberg calving. Research based on observations from the NASA/German Aerospace Center’s twin Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment (GRACE) satellites indicates that between 2002 and 2016, Greenland shed approximately 280 gigatons of ice per year, causing global sea level to rise by 0.03 inches (0.8 millimeters) per year.
Greenland Ice Loss 2002-2016 : GRACE-FO

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Visbek said:

lol.. fail



Yeah, it's not like we have decades of objective data showing that the ice mass losses of Greenland's ice sheet is accelerating. Unless, y'know, we do. E.g. Accelerating changes in ice mass within Greenland, and the ice sheet’s sensitivity to atmospheric forcing | PNAS


And since you apparently accept NASA as a reliable source:

The mass of the Greenland ice sheet has rapidly declined in the last several years due to surface melting and iceberg calving. Research based on observations from the NASA/German Aerospace Center’s twin Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment (GRACE) satellites indicates that between 2002 and 2016, Greenland shed approximately 280 gigatons of ice per year, causing global sea level to rise by 0.03 inches (0.8 millimeters) per year.
Greenland Ice Loss 2002-2016 : GRACE-FO

Click to expand...

Already refuted. Please see #333 and #339.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Visbek said:

Incorrect. It says that about half of the ice sheet melts at some point during the year.

The ice sheet is 660,000 square miles. So basically, the area that had some melt in 2018 is around the same size as Texas.

If you look at the FULL graphic, and read the FULL article, you'd know that what they're saying does not support your skepticism. E.g. they point out how there were multiple massive melt spikes during the summer, which were among the largest on record; how the glaciers are flowing faster now than in the past; and as a result, even with above-average snowfall in 2018, the ice sheet won't change much this year.

Oh, and the NSIDC are the ones that produced the data used for this chart....

I hate to disappoint you, but talk about Greenland losing ice mass is not going to stop any time soon, because Greenland's ice sheet will not stop losing ice mass any time soon.

Click to expand...

In order to be losing ice mass it must have massive outflows of water or ice. 18 Mississippi months gets you to a balance point if you take the lower end of the precipitation numbers. The outflows will contain lots of sediment which will colour the water grey. Where are they?

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Visbek said:

...The mass of the Greenland ice sheet has rapidly declined in the last several years due to surface melting and iceberg calving. ...

Click to expand...

Hmmm surface melting AND iceberg calving. I wonder which one is greater.
If it's melting then there should be huge rivers discharging into the sea.

Wikipedia List of Greenland's rivers
Looks like 19 rivers you never heard of before. The largest, the Børglum river
is someplace in Peary Land.

Here's a map of Peary Land

If it's iceberg calving, then there should be great glaciers calving ice into the sea.

Wikipedia List of Greenland's glaciers
About 100 Ice sheeets, Ice caps and glaciers - mostly glaciers

Here's a map of Greenland's glaciers

I'm going with the glaciers as having the greatest effect on Greenland's ice balance.
Melt water rivers? Not so much if hardly at all. How 'bout you?

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Steve Case said:

Hmmm surface melting AND iceberg calving. I wonder which one is greater.
If it's melting then there should be huge rivers discharging into the sea.

Wikipedia List of Greenland's rivers
Looks like 19 rivers you never heard of before. The largest, the Børglum river
is someplace in Peary Land.

Click to expand...

Yeah, you forgot the fjords. There's over 100 of those.
List of fjords of Greenland - Wikipedia

There is also a lot of water in and running through the ice sheet -- moraines, lakes, aquifers, crevasses, rivers through and underneath the ice sheet.

If it's iceberg calving, then there should be great glaciers calving ice into the sea.

Click to expand...

Yes, there is a massive amount of calving, and glaciers flowing into the ocean, and glaciers retreating, and meltwater flowing into the ocean. The ice also very likely flows faster when there is water running underneath the ice sheet. These processes are happening all around the entire perimeter of Greenland -- that's 44,087km, by the way. I.e. Greenland is huge.

About 100 Ice sheeets, Ice caps and glaciers - mostly glaciers

Click to expand...

And that proves... nothing.

I'm going with the glaciers as having the greatest effect on Greenland's ice balance.
Melt water rivers? Not so much if hardly at all. How 'bout you?

Click to expand...

Yeah, I do this crazy thing called paying attention to scientists.

They are still trying to understand the glaciology and hydrology of Greenland's ice sheets -- as you might imagine, it is not easy, given that *cough* Greenland is HUGE and it is not easy to keep an eye on over hard-to-access 140 rivers and fjords. However, they are actively conducting research, have made a lot of headway in the past ~20 years, and are finding that most of the ice loss now is due to meltwater.

"We no longer see giant icebergs calving" from glaciers, releasing ice into the sea, said Lora Koenig, a glaciologist at the National Snow and Ice Data Center, who led one of the new studies. "The majority of water is coming from surface melt."
Greenland's Ice Loss Now Comes from Surface

I assure you, I could find plenty of links to articles and scientific papers and even a TED talk on this.


And again... Ice melts faster when temperatures rise.

And again... We know, based on objective measurements, that Greenland's ice sheet is losing mass, and the rate of loss is accelerating, and it is accelerating because of higher temperatures. Determining ratio of ice to meltwater as the vehicle of loss informs us about the mechanisms by which it's happening, but doesn't change that fact that it is happening.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Visbek said:

Yeah, you forgot the fjords. There's over 100 of those.
List of fjords of Greenland - Wikipedia

There is also a lot of water in and running through the ice sheet -- moraines, lakes, aquifers, crevasses, rivers through and underneath the ice sheet.



Yes, there is a massive amount of calving, and glaciers flowing into the ocean, and glaciers retreating, and meltwater flowing into the ocean. The ice also very likely flows faster when there is water running underneath the ice sheet. These processes are happening all around the entire perimeter of Greenland -- that's 44,087km, by the way. I.e. Greenland is huge.



And that proves... nothing.



Yeah, I do this crazy thing called paying attention to scientists.

They are still trying to understand the glaciology and hydrology of Greenland's ice sheets -- as you might imagine, it is not easy, given that *cough* Greenland is HUGE and it is not easy to keep an eye on over hard-to-access 140 rivers and fjords. However, they are actively conducting research, have made a lot of headway in the past ~20 years, and are finding that most of the ice loss now is due to meltwater.

"We no longer see giant icebergs calving" from glaciers, releasing ice into the sea, said Lora Koenig, a glaciologist at the National Snow and Ice Data Center, who led one of the new studies. "The majority of water is coming from surface melt."
Greenland's Ice Loss Now Comes from Surface

I assure you, I could find plenty of links to articles and scientific papers and even a TED talk on this.


And again... Ice melts faster when temperatures rise.

And again... We know, based on objective measurements, that Greenland's ice sheet is losing mass, and the rate of loss is accelerating, and it is accelerating because of higher temperatures. Determining ratio of ice to meltwater as the vehicle of loss informs us about the mechanisms by which it's happening, but doesn't change that fact that it is happening.

Click to expand...

Already refuted.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Jack Hays said:

Already refuted.

Click to expand...

Yes, I'm sure that some ornithologist figured out all of the flaws of the GRACE and Operation Ice Bridge data. Oh, and that there aren't actually any fjords in Greenland. lol

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Visbek said:

Yes, I'm sure that some ornithologist figured out all of the flaws of the GRACE and Operation Ice Bridge data. Oh, and that there aren't actually any fjords in Greenland. lol

Click to expand...

It's all just a display of cowardice until you respond to #333 and #339.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Jack Hays said:

It's all just a display of cowardice until you respond to #333 and #339.

Click to expand...

"Cowardice?" Is that your new hook now? Weren't you decrying ad hominem attacks just a day ago? Lol

Anyway, WUWT has zero credibility, as typified by the way your ornithologist buddy gets basic facts wrong and cherry-picks and misrepresents actual scientific data. That kind of garbage deserves no response.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Visbek said:

"Cowardice?" Is that your new hook now? Weren't you decrying ad hominem attacks just a day ago? Lol

Anyway, WUWT has zero credibility, as typified by the way your ornithologist buddy gets basic facts wrong and cherry-picks and misrepresents actual scientific data. That kind of garbage deserves no response.

Click to expand...

Yes, cowardice. Deflecting and dodging to avoid the substance.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Jack Hays said:

Yes, cowardice. Deflecting and dodging to avoid the substance.

Click to expand...

He still hasn't address post 333 and 339, maybe he knows he can't address it since he sure skates all around it with a lot of babble.

He writes this cowardly dodge:

Anyway, WUWT has zero credibility, as typified by the way your ornithologist buddy gets basic facts wrong and cherry-picks and misrepresents actual scientific data. That kind of garbage deserves no response.

Click to expand...

I notice a lot of warmists are TERRIFIED of that blog, as if visiting there might harm their climate delusions and make them normal.

Threegoofs said:

Oh look a blog

Click to expand...

Which links this:

Reconstructions of the 1900–2015 Greenland ice sheet surface mass
balance using the regional climate MAR model

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Visbek said:

...you forgot the fjords. There's over 100 There's over 100 of those.
List of fjords of Greenland - Wikipedia

Click to expand...

From Wikipedia a fjord or fiord ... is a long, narrow inlet
with steep sides or cliffs, created by a glacier.
​

Key words in that are "Created by a glacier."

Visbek said:

There is also a lot of water in and running through the ice sheet -- moraines, lakes, aquifers, crevasses, rivers through and underneath the ice sheet.

Click to expand...

If so,there always have been, it's not a new thing,
not due to "Global Warming/Climate Change" of
one degree over the last 200 years.

Visbek said:

Yes, there is a massive amount of calving, and glaciers flowing into the ocean and melt water flowing into the ocean.

Click to expand...

Yes, but you're claiming there's more melt water right?
And the evidence for that is?

Visbek said:

The ice also very likely flows faster when there is water running underneath the ice sheet.

Click to expand...

If there's water flowing under the ice sheet,
then there's always been water flowing under
the ice sheet. It wouldn't be new.

Visbek said:

These processes are happening all around the entire perimeter of Greenland...

Click to expand...

If that's so, then they always have been

Visbek said:

And that proves... nothing.

Click to expand...

Glaciers are the big players in Greenland's ice mass balance.
The rivers that you can't even find on a map barely make a
contribution.

Visbek said:

Yeah, I do this crazy thing called paying attention to scientists.

Click to expand...

I pay attention to facts and data. I don't listen to spin doctors.

Visbek said:

They are still trying to understand the glaciology and hydrology of Greenland's ice sheets -- as you might imagine, it is not easy, given that Greenland is HUGE and it is not easy to keep an eye on over hard-to-access 140 rivers and fjords. However, they are actively conducting research, have made a lot of headway in the past ~20 years, and are finding that most of the ice loss now is due to melt water.

Click to expand...

It's obviously necessary for climate science to make that finding.
Calving ice bergs doesn't fit the narrative. Let's pretend that small
streams on the surface disappearing down moulins have more
impact than the entire coast line of 1,000 foot thick glaciers calving
into the sea.

Visbek said:

"We no longer see giant icebergs calving" from glaciers, releasing ice into the sea...The majority of water is coming from surface melt." Greenland's Ice Loss Now Comes from Surface

Click to expand...

The link:
Greenland's Ice Loss Now Comes from Surface
says:

SAN FRANCISCO — Greenland's disappearing ice shifted gears in the past decade,
switching from shrinking glaciers to surface melting, researchers reported here
last week at the American Geophysical Union's annual meeting.​

It's difficult dealing with bald faced lies.

Visbek said:

I assure you, I could find plenty of links to articles and scientific papers and even a TED talk on this.
YouTube 8nbeD1mwCdo

Click to expand...

I've seen her on a TED talk interesting stuff. But again, discovering
something today doesn't mean it hasn't been there all along.

Visbek said:

And again... Ice melts faster when temperatures rise.

Click to expand...

If the temperature is still below freezing there won't be any melting.

Visbek said:

And again... We know, based on objective measurements, that Greenland's ice sheet is losing mass

Click to expand...

You know what? Sea level is rising and the water has to be coming from somewhere,
and Antarctica and Greenland are good bets to be that somewhere.

Visbek said:

and the rate of loss is accelerating,

Click to expand...

That's most probably BS

Visbek said:

and it is accelerating because of higher temperatures.

Click to expand...

More BS. Ice loss or gain in Antarctica and Greenland is a function of snowfall and the
calving of icebergs. The two events are separated in time by decades centuries or longer.

Visbek said:

Determining ratio of ice to melt water as the vehicle of loss informs us about the mechanisms by which it's happening, but doesn't change that fact that it is happening.

Click to expand...

Claiming it's due to warming (A degree over the last 200 years) fits the narrative.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Steve Case said:

Claiming it's due to warming (A degree over the last 200 years) fits the narrative.

Click to expand...

Temperatures require units - 1 deg C = 1.8 deg F. Run an experiment at your home - get two buckets of icy water - one at 30.2 deg F and the other at 32 deg F. Let them sit for two days at these temperatures. Turn them upside down. Did you need a mop for one?

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Media_Truth said:

Temperatures require units - 1 deg C = 1.8 deg F. Run an experiment at your home - get two buckets of icy water - one at 30.2 deg F and the other at 32 deg F. Let them sit for two days at these temperatures. Turn them upside down. Did you need a mop for one?

Click to expand...

If I could figure out what the point is you're trying to make is, I'd provide a response.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

10 times '''experts''' predicted the world would end by now | Fox News

"Ohmigawdwereallgonnadieeeee!!!!!!! This time, for realz!!! No...Honest! I SWEAR!!!"

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Visbek said:

Yeah, you forgot the fjords. There's over 100 of those.
List of fjords of Greenland - Wikipedia

There is also a lot of water in and running through the ice sheet -- moraines, lakes, aquifers, crevasses, rivers through and underneath the ice sheet.

Click to expand...

All of which has to come out of the fjords.

Yes, there is a massive amount of calving, and glaciers flowing into the ocean, and glaciers retreating, and meltwater flowing into the ocean. The ice also very likely flows faster when there is water running underneath the ice sheet. These processes are happening all around the entire perimeter of Greenland -- that's 44,087km, by the way. I.e. Greenland is huge.

Click to expand...

Al of which has to come out of the fjords.

If there is a river the size of the Mississippi running under a glacier then there will not be a glacier there tomorrow.

And that proves... nothing.

Click to expand...

It shows that the river under the glacier (they all have one) is small.

Yeah, I do this crazy thing called paying attention to scientists.

Click to expand...

Even when the bleeding obvious says the opposite.

They are still trying to understand the glaciology and hydrology of Greenland's ice sheets -- as you might imagine, it is not easy, given that *cough* Greenland is HUGE and it is not easy to keep an eye on over hard-to-access 140 rivers and fjords. However, they are actively conducting research, have made a lot of headway in the past ~20 years, and are finding that most of the ice loss now is due to meltwater.

Click to expand...

It is very easy. Take the radar produced maps done in the 1960's and make new ones using the same process. It was easy and cheap back then. It generated a very very accurate map of the top of the ice sheet and the rock below it. Take the new one away from the old one and compare the result.

"We no longer see giant icebergs calving" from glaciers, releasing ice into the sea, said Lora Koenig, a glaciologist at the National Snow and Ice Data Center, who led one of the new studies. "The majority of water is coming from surface melt."

Click to expand...

The edge has retreated a bit. Now it has stabilized somewhat.

I assure you, I could find plenty of links to articles and scientific papers and even a TED talk on this.

Click to expand...

Yep, or you could have paid attention in school.

And again... Ice melts faster when temperatures rise.

Click to expand...

Nope, never were that good at physics were you.

And again... We know, based on objective measurements, that Greenland's ice sheet is losing mass, and the rate of loss is accelerating, and it is accelerating because of higher temperatures. Determining ratio of ice to meltwater as the vehicle of loss informs us about the mechanisms by which it's happening, but doesn't change that fact that it is happening.

Click to expand...

It is not happening. There needs to be 18 Mississippi months worth of flow out of Greenland to break even. This is very grey water full of sediment.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Steve Case said:

From Wikipedia a fjord or fiord ... is a long, narrow inlet
with steep sides or cliffs, created by a glacier.
​

Key words in that are "Created by a glacier."


If so,there always have been, it's not a new thing,
not due to "Global Warming/Climate Change" of
one degree over the last 200 years.


Yes, but you're claiming there's more melt water right?
And the evidence for that is?


If there's water flowing under the ice sheet,
then there's always been water flowing under
the ice sheet. It wouldn't be new.


If that's so, then they always have been


Glaciers are the big players in Greenland's ice mass balance.
The rivers that you can't even find on a map barely make a
contribution.


I pay attention to facts and data. I don't listen to spin doctors.


It's obviously necessary for climate science to make that finding.
Calving ice bergs doesn't fit the narrative. Let's pretend that small
streams on the surface disappearing down moulins have more
impact than the entire coast line of 1,000 foot thick glaciers calving
into the sea.


The link:
Greenland's Ice Loss Now Comes from Surface
says:

SAN FRANCISCO — Greenland's disappearing ice shifted gears in the past decade,
switching from shrinking glaciers to surface melting, researchers reported here
last week at the American Geophysical Union's annual meeting.​

It's difficult dealing with bald faced lies.


I've seen her on a TED talk interesting stuff. But again, discovering
something today doesn't mean it hasn't been there all along.


If the temperature is still below freezing there won't be any melting.


You know what? Sea level is rising and the water has to be coming from somewhere,
and Antarctica and Greenland are good bets to be that somewhere.


That's most probably BS


More BS. Ice loss or gain in Antarctica and Greenland is a function of snowfall and the
calving of icebergs. The two events are separated in time by decades centuries or longer.


Claiming it's due to warming (A degree over the last 200 years) fits the narrative.

Click to expand...

Essentially your arguments boil down to "it was probably always doing that" and "it's probably BS". Not exactly convincing!

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Steve Case said:

Glaciers are the big players in Greenland's ice mass balance.
The rivers that you can't even find on a map barely make a
contribution.

Click to expand...

Actually no. The tiny rivers are what carries the significant amount of mass. The calving is a lot less than the river.

So overall Greenland is retaining 70% of the snow that falls on it.

Re: Greenland's Melting Ice Nears a Tipping Point

Tim the plumber said:

It is not happening. There needs to be 18 Mississippi months worth of flow out of Greenland to break even. This is very grey water full of sediment.

Click to expand...

This is such obvious BS. The area of the Mississippi watershed is about 1.5 times the entire surface area of Greenland, and it also has more precipitation that Greenland. So why the hell would Greenland needs 18 Mississippis worth of flow to break even?