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Grade school education

KevinKohler

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So my daughter is in 2nd grade, and I have to say, I think I've just about had it with common core. I can barely help her with basic math, addition and subtraction, because they have doing the weirdest **** to solve those problems. Drawing dots. It's clear my daughter is not getting, and she's a smart girl. I know that some of you are teachers. Can anyone explain this **** to me? Why are we over complicating simple, basic math? Last night I had to teach how to write out a problem, add the ones, then the tens, the the hundreds, breaking it down into multiple parts, and carrying over when needed. She took to that much easier. On her report card, her teacher has stated that she performs at grade level for math, but needs to practice it with a parent at home. And those report cards, Jesus titty ****ing Christ! Why can't **** be simple any more? A, B, C, D, or F. Give a number score. I don't give a **** how well others know the material, that doesn't have any affect on my kids knowing it or not.

I have half a mind to go off on the next PTO meeting...I work from 6am till around 5:30pm most days. That's when I get home with the kids. I have to then make dinner, while they do their homework, get them fed, have a little bit of TV time, brush teach, bathe, comb hair, put on pajamas, etc. When, in all of that, am I to practice math with my daughter so she can understand their convoluted way of solving basic addition and subtraction?


End rant.
 
Sure. First of all, the complaints you have are not at all related to Common Core. Not at all. Common Core are merely standards, they do not direct or influence curriculum.

Why are we over complicating simple, basic math?
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Because we always have.

Think about how you were likely taught to subtract 100-99. Obviously, in the real world, our minds say "99 is 1 away from 100, so the answer is 1". But, using the older methods of teaching, you have to borrow from the 1 and add ten to the first 0, borrow from the first 0 and add 10 to the last 0, all so we can have 10-9, 9-9 and 0-0 to give us the answer of 1.

That was most definitely over complicating simple, basic math. But it's how I was taught and I suspect it was how you were taught.

You'll have to be more specific about her report card, as we're lacking some information here.

I understand what's causing you to be upset. And, honestly, I don't know how your daughter is being taught, so I cannot comment on whether it makes sense or not. All I'm saying is Common Core has nothing to do with your problem, so if you do go to a meeting, don't rant about Common Core, because anyone who understands Common Core will think you are merely an ignorant person and not worth listening to. You'll want to criticize the curriculum, the "how" concepts are being taught. Use the words "curriculum" and "teaching methods", not Common Core, it'll get you further.

And, as far as math goes, your frustration is not so much about what your daughter has to do, but your own lack of understanding. But, before you get too frustrated, remember 100-99 and remember the way you were taught math was pretty dumb too.
 

What's complicated about the dots?

From my understanding they use them to teach multiplication. Just as a visual aid.

3 x 5

Draw 3 rows of 5 dots.

Equals 15 and it gives the kids a way to visualize it. They are described as "arrays". They simply want the kids to understand why math works rather than simply memorize tables.
 





I always see proponents of common core make this argument. if this is true, where does the goofy, inefficient "math" come from. Before common core it was not taught, after common core it is what's taught.


And, as far as math goes, your frustration is not so much about what your daughter has to do, but your own lack of understanding. But, before you get too frustrated, remember 100-99 and remember the way you were taught math was pretty dumb too.
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My son is also in 2nd grade and a bit of a prodigy in both math and reading. while we both can easily figure out the goofy math he is frustrated that the answers are so much simpler to come by without the inefficient aimless methodology to arrive at the conclusion.
 

Your complaint has NOTHING to do with common core, but rather with what the term is "new math". BTW, here in Nevada, ALL the charter schools (you know the ones conservatives rave about) all teach the new math here like you have described. It isn't part of common core.
 

The Common Core standards simply state that 2nd graders need to understand place value -- hundreds, tens and ones. Math companies are constantly trying to come up with new ways of teaching things so their program will be deemed the "NEW AND IMPROVED!" program of the year and districts will spend millions of dollars buying it. Now, it could be that this new way of teaching place value is something they'll have to know for the PARCC testing (I don't really know - I don't give it), but it's not specifically a Common Core standard to teach it that way. The standards don't tell you HOW to teach it -- just what the kids need to know.
 


He's not talking about making arrays for multiplication. He's talking about addition and subtraction with regrouping.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I always see proponents of common core make this argument. if this is true, where does the goofy, inefficient "math" come from. Before common core it was not taught, after common core it is what's taught.
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First of all, goofy inefficient "math" was likely taught when you were a child. Again, think about how you were taught 100-99.

Second of all, teachers have long had different ways to teach math. I moved schools between second and third grade. The first few weeks of my third grade year had a lot of review of what I learned my second grade year. But even though we were doing basically the same math, it was being taught differently. Additionally, math is hardly the only subject where the content is taught differently.

So where did it come from? It came from where it always has, which is different teachers trying different things and researchers constantly trying to find better methods of teaching.

You don't have to take my word for it. You can go to the Common Core website itself. You can read all of the standards. Not once will you see anything about HOW to teach math. You can read their FAQ, where it specifically says it is not curriculum. I'll even copy and paste it for you:

Myths vs. Facts | Common Core State Standards Initiative


All Common Core is is an attempt to create standards which are universally accepted across all states.
And, again, I don't know the methods your son is learning because I'm not there. All I can say is Common Core has nothing to do with it and that you don't have to trust me, you can see for yourself. Also, I want to point out we were taught math stupidly too, so try to keep that in mind before you criticize other methods.
 
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OK, report cards first. It's all graphs, showing her relationship to the material compared to other kids her grade. So, it's not....she knows the material, or doesn't, its...she knows the material better, equal, or worse than other kids. Which is BS, IMO.

I always thought common core dictated curriculum? I'll strike that from my hate speech, then.

So what they're doing is, say you have 64 subtracted from 88. Bellow the problem will be three boxes, and the idea is, you draw dots in the ones, tens, and if needed, the hundreds box. Now, my daughter comes home, and has no idea what to do. OK, well, I'm not buying that, I tell her, she knows what to do, she just doesn't want to do it. She wants me to hold her hand, and in essence, solve it for her. So I sat her there, for over an hour, her whining, me eventually yelling. Now I've got her good and scared because I'm getting upset. At which point, she still doesn't know what to do. So now I'm giving her story more credibility. So now I'm interrogating her about paying attention in class. But she always comes home on good colors. So I drop it. Knuckle, down, we get through the math together. I show her my way. Subtract the 4 from the 8, write that in the one spot. Subtract the 6, write that in the ten spot. I fail to see how that is more comp,I acted than drawing dots and counting. Further, I fail to see how Cary overs work with the dot system.
 

:lol:

I was the same way when my daughter started her math but now in 3rd grade, I am starting to understand it a little better. It does work for her but everyone learns a different way.

My daughter struggles in reading and needs extra practice in reading and like you it seems like after work, dinner, homework, chores, and whatnot it's already time for bed. However sometimes there is sacrifices to make and that might mean no TV time and doing more reading and that's how it is. But she loves her TV so she always makes the time to get her extra reading in so she still has that TV time.
 
Slyfox696 said:
First of all, goofy inefficient "math" was likely taught when you were a child. Again, think about how you were taught 100-99.
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I actually don't remember, like my son, I just "see" math, I never followed up on it because I was never interested in the path, my brother has a doctorate in math, and is currently a professor there.

I found it boring as **** so I went into comp security after I got out of the military. I know what you are saying, however, you take the word problems, as well as some of the goofy pattern "problems", and tell me what they are for.



That's a non answer. Common core problems, are different, and "Common" now than what we grew up with. if it's better, show me.







Right. this is the nonsense I hear all the time. without common core, they would not be doing goofy inefficient math.
 

She doesn't receive specific grades/numbers for each standard or group of standards? Just graphs comparing kids? That's dumb.

KevinKohler said:
I always thought common core dictated curriculum? I'll strike that from my hate speech, then.
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Standards have always been the foundation of curriculum -- they just don't tell teachers how to teach, just what needs to be learned.


Can you find an example of what you're talking about? We don't have new math curriculum yet at my school (and to that I say - thank God), but I'm sure it's coming.
 
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ReverendHellh0und said:
Right. this is the nonsense I hear all the time. without common core, they would not be doing goofy inefficient math.
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There are math curricula aligned to the common core standards that don't teach "goofy math" (I teach math using a common core aligned non-goofy math program). But, as I said, the "goofy math" might be on the PARCC tests ...
 

Reading I have no problem with. We read a book every night in bed. Math isn't that simple. Has to be done at the kitchen table. So either before, or after dinner. Well, before dinner, it's homework time. After dinner (usually around 7-7:30pm), shouldn't kids get a little down time, free time before bed? I put them to bed at 8. I'm not trying to make excuses here, it just seems to me that...well, she's freaking 7! There is such a thing as pushing too hard, I think. I don't know. I feel like like 30-45 minutes of TV or playtime ain't asking for much, after 8 hours of school, and then several more hours of daycare.
 
It's actually, in some ways, a better way to report how your child is doing.

Think about it for a second. What does an "A" or a "B" mean? It merely means the child is satisfactorily completing the work given. But it does not express an understanding of the material, only that the child scores well. Usually those two things go hand in hand, but they don't always. By comparing how she understands the material compared to the way other children understand it, you get a better understand of how she is doing in class.

There are pros and cons to both approaches. Honestly, using both at the same time probably wouldn't be a terrible idea.

I always thought common core dictated curriculum? I'll strike that from my hate speech, then.
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Not really. Common Core is just standards. First of all, Common Core itself has no legal authority. The authority given to Common Core comes from when states individually adopt Common Core standards. Common Core itself has no authority. Second of all, all Common Core says is what students should know at different points of their educational career. For example, it might say "Fourth grade students should be able to identify all countries in North America". It doesn't say how the teacher should teach that. It doesn't say, "geography teachers have to use a map and make children color each country a different color". It merely says students should know countries (and I completely made up that standard as an example).

As a teacher, I promise you that doesn't just occur at home.

I'd have to see it in person, I'm more of a visual person. Perhaps Josie could explain it better, I think she teaches elementary.

But, again, you have to remember the way we were taught was stupid as well. You're just used to it. I can tell you if I saw 88-64, I'd subtract 8-4 and 8-2 and that's easy in your head. But what if it were 84-68? In that case, I'd two to 68 to get 70 and then 84-70 is 14, plus my 2, gives me 16. That would not be the way you or I were taught math, but it would be the more efficient way. And I believe some of the newer methods teach something more similar to that.

I'm not saying the way your daughter is taught sense, as I don't teach elementary or math. I'm just saying that, given how we were taught, I can't imagine their way of learning being any less dumb than ours.
 


I understand she's a young girl and 30-45 minutes of TV is no problem at all after a long day. Since she's in second grade, I would say give her one sheet of paper with some easy math problems to do with her regular homework just to work on the basics. Math can be simple when you start simple.
 
Slyfox696 said:
I'd have to see it in person, I'm more of a visual person. Perhaps Josie could explain it better, I think she teaches elementary.
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Nope, she can't. We don't have "new math" curricula yet.

I would like to see it, though, since I'm a visual person too.
 
ReverendHellh0und said:
I actually don't remember, like my son, I just "see" math, I never followed up on it because I was never interested in the path, my brother has a doctorate in math, and is currently a professor there.
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I suspect you were taught to borrow from the 1, borrow from the 0, etc. to do 100-99. And that's very inefficient.

That's a non answer.
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No, it's an accurate answer. Teaching has always differed among teachers, schools and states. It's just that you've noticed it more now than you would have previously. Again, I was taught the same material in different ways when I was a student and changed schools. You just may be more aware of it now than you were before, for numerous reasons.

Common core problems
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There is no such thing as a Common Core problem. Again, I refer you to the Common Core website.

if it's better, show me.
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I gave an example to KevinKohler in my first post.

Right. this is the nonsense I hear all the time. without common core, they would not be doing goofy inefficient math.
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And this is just false. I've even told you that you don't have to take my word for it, you can look at the Common Core website itself.

Here's what you need to know. There are at least two teachers in this thread (Josie and myself) and we're both telling you that you are wrong. You are not a teacher and from what you said, never were. So two teachers who deal (or have dealt) with Common Core are telling you are wrong and you have no experience in this area. You should probably trust what we're telling you. But, even if you don't trust, you can literally view the Common Core website yourself and see what we're saying is accurate.
 

I feel your pain. Is it common core that's responsible for schools no longer teaching children to write?
 
Josie said:
Nope, she can't. We don't have "new math" curricula yet.

I would like to see it, though, since I'm a visual person too.
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Is your state still operating under Common Core? Missouri is an absolute mess right now when it comes to standards. I don't know what state you're from (and I don't want to pry), but I was just curious if your state still uses Common Core.
 
MaggieD said:
I feel your pain. Is it common core that's responsible for schools no longer teaching children to write?
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Nope.

I'm also not familiar with that concept.
 
MaggieD said:
I feel your pain. Is it common core that's responsible for schools no longer teaching children to write?
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There are Common Core writing standards for every grade level, Maggie.
 
Slyfox696 said:
Is your state still operating under Common Core? Missouri is an absolute mess right now when it comes to standards. I don't know what state you're from (and I don't want to pry), but I was just curious if your state still uses Common Core.
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Yep -- we're all Common Core. Just haven't quite made the switch to new math.
 

Which I've thought doing. Which will make my daughter hate me even more than when I put here in time out, lol. But, do I give her the math problems to be solved my way, or the way her teacher is doing that...frankly, I'm struggling to understand?
 
Josie said:
He's not talking about making arrays for multiplication. He's talking about addition and subtraction with regrouping.
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Either way I doubt it's complicated enough to warrant a post like this. In the day of the internet he could have figured this out in less time than it takes to write a grumpy forum post.
 
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