I'm not totally up on the history of that flag in respect to SC, but it seems to me that the elected officials in SC dealt with the pressure from the Feds around 20 years ago. Since then, it hasn't been an issue and still isn't as far as the Feds are concerned.
That kind of makes the point of your post moot...don't you agree?
I dont find the link between the south and the crown all that surprising in 1776. It was the greatest concentration of british influence, there was a greater interdependence on textiles and trade...fiscal realities. Not surprising based on the facts of the day. I also dont find the race riots that occurred in the northern cities from 1900-1930 all that surprising. Its just part of history.
And I think its fine to have discussions on race and racism as historical realities. Great opportunities to learn. Sadly...some ****head will seize on the opportunity to try to capitalize today on the fact that in 1850, Asians in California were treated as slaves, not allowed to associate with non-Asians, couldnt marry, couldnt own proeprty, etc. Modern California doesnt own the actions of historical California. But you know...next thing you know people will be demanding the flag of California be changed...
Sure I have - that flag was raised in 1961, and it's not a coincidence that the raising of a Confederate battle flag occurred during a bitter battle over civil rights for blacks. You have to be willfully ignorant to conclude that the events are mere coincidences, and especially given the fact that the same flag was adopted by other states and by white racists opposing civil rights and fighting to maintain white supremacy. Those events are all related, part of the history of that flag.
The alternative explanation is the flag was raised to honor the Southern heritage or some such nonsense, and that might fly if the Confederate battle flag was raised to commemorate some event and then removed after a week, a month, even a year, but it stayed for DECADES, an historical artifact, flying over the State's Capitol.
And we have to assume that the white leaders who raised that flag had the support of 'the [white] people' in those states, because they elected white leaders who defended white supremacy and Jim Crow for DECADES. You're asking me to believe that gutless politicians who have always pandered to voters were somehow acting contrary to the will of the majority of their constituents, and there is simply NO evidence that is the case.
I can acknowledge what that flag might mean to some people all day long and it won't change the fact that it was a mostly obscure flag until the civil rights battles started, and that the leaders of the movement against civil rights for their black residents raised that flag as their symbol of protest. That some might honor their dead relatives with it doesn't change that in 2015 that flag has been adopted as a symbol for white supremacists, same as it was the symbol for white supremacists occupying the highest state offices in the 1950s and 1960s.
OK, accepting your premise, then as this transformation of the symbol takes place, would you suggest that white, blue eyed, blonde Germans raise the flag and then ask Jewish residents to accept that when THEY raise the flag on the State Capitol, it means peace? Come one. Those Jewish residents would have known friends or family members slaughtered, millions of them in total, under that banner. No one with the slightest respect for Jews and the pain of that recent history would fly that flag and expect them to understand that it no longer means hate and a desire to wipe them off the face of the earth, but peace and love.
And remember that you'd be asking Jews to ignore that white, blue eyed blonde Germans raised that Nazi banner in 1961 while fighting to keep Jews as second class citizens BY LAW, prohibited from attending state colleges, segregated in inferior schools, unable to eat in the same restaurants as Christians, or sit in the same movie seats, Jews only allowed in the back rows of buses, and unable to vote and exercise their rights as Americans, etc. and kept that Nazi banner on the state house continually for another 37 years and only removed it under protest from the Jewish community.
Seriously, I can't believe you believe your own rhetoric. Please, put yourself in the shoes of Jews and ask yourself if you'd buy that nonsense....
What will we have lost? A symbol of a racist past? Good riddance.
This follows on your previous claim that I am ignorant of US history, where upon you delve in current Russian history (!!) in a false analogy of the US Civil War.
What is to be done is for US state governments to remove a symbol that represents an attempt to dissolve the Union and maintain a system of slave labor. The US is usually a place that does not celebrate rebellious losers.
I guess you mean nearly 50 years ago, with the passage of the CRA and VRA that pretty much gutted the Jim Crow laws and voter suppression efforts common throughout the South?
But even if so I don't think it makes the observation moot at all. I've been through the history but that particular flag was raised atop the S.C. capitol in 1961 during a time when those raising it (the legislature and/or the Gov) were engaged in a bitter fight AGAINST extending civil rights to blacks. So that flag, that particular design, is intimately associated with state-sponsored efforts to continue the second class treatment of blacks in S.C., and that flag flew continuously over the capitol for 37 years.
Let me ask you this. Say you're invited to attend a black church in S.C. Given that flag's history, are you going to wear your Confederate Battle Flag belt buckle to the service? Unless you're extremely rude you won't because what you should know is most of not nearly all of that congregation will consider your belt buckle a symbol of past oppression by whites including their own government that only ended when the Feds forced its end. It doesn't even matter what it means to you - to those on the receiving end of centuries of state sponsored oppression, that particular symbol has a very definite meaning, and that meaning is enforced every day because that flag on your belt has been adopted by a slew of racist organizations in your state that say a return to white supremacy is their goal, the same goal the S.C. government fought to maintain when the Confederate flag was raised on the state house.
And if you say, well, the flag represents my southern pride, the response from a black congregant could be, "you mean the pride and nostalgia for a time when the state prevented me from voting, from eating in the same restaurants as you, etc. and fought a years long battle using that flag as a symbol to perpetuate that state of affairs?"
I'll go ahead and repost this since it seems to have slipped past without understanding...
Our new Government is founded upon exactly the opposite ideas; its foundations are laid, its cornerstone rests, upon the great truth that the negro is not equal to the white man; that slavery, subordination to the superior race, is his natural and normal condition.
The Nazi flag was created for and used by a racist. Now...should those German citizens be shamed to fly a German flag?
The Stars and Stripes, the Flag of the North, flew for over 80 years while Slavery was legal.
Allot longer than the Confederate flag flew. Also the Confederate flag was a Battle flag, not a National flag.
The National flag of the South had a different design.
And yes, the North used slaves. Really, the North never had a problem with slavery until the South wanted to secede.
Come to think of it, Dutch, English and Porteguese Ships brought slaves over to the US.
Should those flags be taken down ?
Maybe if people were more educated they wouldn't be so insulted over a flag.
They definitely wouldn't compare it to the Nazi flag, thats for sure.
I'm not sure. I would have to believe however that violations of the law are grounds for impeachment and likely go against the oath of office. Contrary to what seems to have become the standard mindset of many in America, Executive Branch officers are not Kings that simply can disregard and break the law because they feel like it.
That's a silly argument. The Stars and Stripes wasn't created for the primary purpose of maintaining slavery.
What flag was created for the primary purpose of maintaining slavery?
Sorry, was still editing my posts.
OK, so does a decent Southern person take down the flag or keep it flying high, and offending most of the blacks in that state?
Right, but this same POTUS was an abolitionist, which is why BEFORE HE WAS INAUGURATED the South seceded in protest. You're trying to draw some equivalency between the person who would free slaves and those who fought a war to keep them enslaved.
When you made excuses for Jim Crow, blaming it on the North and reconstruction without nodding to an embedded culture of white supremacy that lasted for decades after reconstruction and only ended after equal rights for black citizens was forced on them by the rest of the country.
So, you're pointing to outliers, the 1 in 1,000 or less, as evidence of some broader point?
You're defending racism and the defense of white supremacy, from pre Civil War days through at least the 1960s. We know where they were "coming from" and that era and the romanticizing of it needs to end.
And I'm not taking one snapshot in time. What I've pointed out is a culture of racism and white supremacy that stretches unbroken from pre-colonial days through my lifetime, and that didn't end until change was forced on the south by the rest of the country. That flag was raised on a flagpole in S.C. in the 1960s in defense of that racist, white supremacist culture.
Actually, I was referring to the SC Legislature that moved that flag off their Capitol building to the memorial site where it now resides...and, I'll add, where it has resided for around 20 years.
In any case, your analogy about the black church doesn't fit. In regards to this flag, we are talking about it existing at a location that anyone is free to visit...or not. Therefore, any ill feeling anyone might experience from seeing it can be quickly remedied by not going near it. On the other hand, anyone who DOES want to see it...for whatever reason (maybe their ancestor fought in that war and they want to pay their respects to the sacrifices the ancestor made)...are free to visit the memorial. Unlike your church analogy, nobody is getting that flag shoved in their face.
what georgia did there,i saw it.
OK, 15 years (moved in 2000) and it wasn't moved in response to Federal pressure as you suggested, and hasn't to my knowledge ever been an issue for the Feds. The opposition came from within the state of S.C., mostly from black residents, who fully understand the history of that flag in their state.
Stand on the steps of the Capitol and the flag is hard to miss. It's a very prominent location. And there is no reason that particular flag with its history and current use as a symbol for white racists has to fly over any memorial to those who fought and died in the Civil War. There are many options to choose from and nearly all of them if not all carry a lot less recent emotional baggage.
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The Confederate flag was created an used by a government whose primary reason for secession was slavery. So anyways, are you going to answer the question?
One of many reasons was slavery.
The Nazi flag is not the German flag
Are you just not very good at that whole reading and comprehending thing?None of which are cited in their actual secession documents to any meaningful degree. So anyways, are you going to answer the question or not?
From 1933 to 1945 it definitely was. Please, stop trying to change history. Anyways, are you going to answer the question?
Are you just not very good at that whole reading and comprehending thing?
"I think I did answer your question. The Nazi flag is not the German flag. The Nazi flag symbolized Hitlers Nazi party. The German flag symbolizes the whole of Germany. If someone flew a Nazi flag as a means fo honoring their family that served under that flag, they would be honoring the Nazi party. Kinda tough to deny that."
Their decency is not predicated on it one way or another. The point I think your missing is that your sense of morality isn't necessarily theirs.
No, I'm demonstrating that the idea that blacks were inferior back then was damn near universal and a position held by the very man who set them free. Thus separating the issue of slavery and "white supremecy".
So you can't tell the difference between an explanation and an excuse. OK.
When said "outlier" was the plaintiff in a decided case that set legal precedent here in the good ole US for the allowing of servitude for life, i.e. slavery? That that individual. that that "outlier" was black? That at that point in time, that moment right there was the exact moment that Slavery became an Institution recognized by the precursor to the US government? Again, I'm separating the issue of slavery and "white supremacy". You're focusing on the outcome, I'm showing you the beginnings.
No, you're trying to pigeonhole me into that position. I'm explaining that racism and slavery aren't necessarily -- as has been shown -- tied at the hip. At least not originally, but let me ask you this -- what is your definition of white supremacy?
You are I believe lest you wouldn't be brushing aside my salient points so carelessly and parroting the same old mantra "you're defending racism and white supremacy"
The Federal government, the North once again imposing themselves on the sovereignty of a State, forcing on them that which they do not want, telling them how to handle themselves, just like the time of pre-secession, the reason for secession -- and you think them raising that flag was just about reassuring white people that they're the best?
You couldn't think that the raising of the flag had anything to do with the Federal government's encroachment, once again? That the Confederate Flag was a symbol of defiance of that Federal encroachment?
I've answered the question twice.All I've read from you so far is evasion.
This has already been corrected so that you are able to answer the post. It was definitely the German flag from 1933 until 1945. So the question stands. Are you going to answer it or not?
So it's been there for 15 years...apparently with no ill effect, nobody killed because of it, etc...but now that some nut-job kills people it's suddenly a cause for this kind of event and people like you will dredge up any reasoning...no matter how outlandish or illogical...create analogies that don't work...basically raise so much of a ruckus...that the Governor and Legislature of that State will have no choice but to remove it.
15 years, it's been okay. A week from a tragedy, it's got to go.
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