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Good piece on immigration from Stossel and the guy who runs the Rand Institute

Questerr said:
You think the rich are just going to give up the system that supports their wealth and that they manipulate to enhance their profits?
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No, I don't think the rich are going to give up democracy.
 
aociswundumho said:
Yes, as I said, they are far left.
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So is Trump and all of his supporters on this site far left?

Because look at all of this:

www.ctvnews.ca

U.S. authorities closing Canadian access to library that straddles Quebec-Vermont border

A small town in southern Quebec says American authorities have decided to close the Canadian access to an historic library that sits on the border between the two countries.
www.ctvnews.ca www.ctvnews.ca


I assume you will pull out a ''No True Scotsman'' fallacy in response to this eh?

No true Scotsman - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
medi said:
Do you view the ROK and/or Japan as authoritarian?

On the other hand, you may not know how strict the governments in those two nations are about such matters as you were focused on in that which I quoted.
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It isn’t difficult to travel to the ROK or Japan.
 
aociswundumho said:
No, I don't think the rich are going to give up democracy.
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The rich hate democracy. They would happily abandon it for a dictatorship they control. Countries where the rich wield the most direct open power are authoritarian, not democratic.
 
Questerr said:
It isn’t difficult to travel to the ROK or Japan.
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I thought your reference was to border control. Of course, if you enter either nation in a legal manner and don't overstay your visa, no trouble at all. You try to land illegally from a boat and get caught, off to jail immediately, and little chance to get out without some really, really good information that indicates you are some sort of special refuge from some awful bad place.

Of course, tourism is very welcomed, as in just traveling to one of those nations.

Let me go back to page one and check to see if I erred in reading your post:

Questerr said:
The countries with the strictest border controls are all authoritarian.
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Looks like my reading skills aren't yet diminshed with old age. Did I interpret your vocabulary usage incorrectly?
 
aociswundumho said:
No. Most people hold a mix of left and right wing political views.
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Really, but you said only the ''far left'' support restrictive borders, which seems like the opposite position all the Trump supporters say on this site, that the ''far left'' is for open borders. So who is correct here? You both can't be right.
 
medi said:
I thought your reference was to border control. Of course, if you enter either nation in a legal manner and don't overstay your visa, no trouble at all. You try to land illegally from a boat and get caught, off to jail immediately, and little chance to get out without some really, really good information that indicates you are some sort of special refuge from some awful bad place.

Of course, tourism is very welcomed, as in just traveling to one of those nations.

Let me go back to page one and check to see if I erred in reading your post:



Looks like my reading skills aren't yet diminshed with old age. Did I interpret your vocabulary usage incorrectly?
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Compare Japan to North Norea or China.

If you land in a boat and get caught, you’ll be lucky if you don’t get tortured before you get shot.

Border controls don’t solely apply to illegal immigration. They apply to legal immigration and just travel too.

Authoritarian nations don’t like travelers bringing in potentially harmful ideas like “maybe people should be able to vote”.
 
Yes_Minister said:
Really, but you said only the ''far left'' support restrictive borders,
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Extremely restrictive. As in no one gets out. Of course they don't have to worry about people trying to get in, since all far left countries are living nightmares.

Yes_Minister said:
which seems like the opposite position all the Trump supporters say on this site, that the ''far left'' is for open borders.
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They are mistaken.

Yes_Minister said:
So who is correct here? You both can't be right.
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I am. Here's one of the most famous far left politicians in the entire world telling you in plain English that open borders are right wing (timestamped):

 
Questerr said:
Compare Japan to North Norea or China.

If you land in a boat and get caught, you’ll be lucky if you don’t get tortured before you get shot.

Border controls don’t solely apply to illegal immigration. They apply to legal immigration and just travel too.

Authoritarian nations don’t like travelers bringing in potentially harmful ideas like “maybe people should be able to vote”.
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Sir, you are now painting with a mop, not a paint brush. You do that style in the brick-and-mortar world at a political gathering and . . . Well, it could be unpleasant for you. Sayonara.
 
aociswundumho said:
Extremely restrictive. As in no one gets out. Of course they don't have to worry about people trying to get in, since all far left countries are living nightmares.
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And yet it's the right-winger Trumpers who are having tourists sent to ICE camps to be tortured and closing off that library on the US-Canada border, how does that work?
aociswundumho said:
They are mistaken.
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Based on what? I doubt the Trump supporters on this site would agree with you. Have you ever told Mycroft or Captain Adeverse they are wrong on this?
aociswundumho said:
I am. Here's one of the most famous far left politicians in the entire world telling you in plain English that open borders are right wing (timestamped):

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And I can post a thousand videos of Stephen Miller or Steve Bannon saying the left is using ''open borders'' to promote ''cultural Marxism'' in the US. Are they left-wing? You are really leaning on the ''No True Scotsman Fallacy" here, eh?
 
aociswundumho said:
Wrong, as usual.



You mean like China, where billionaires often disappear?
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China is authoritarian and not democratic. And billionaires don’t “often” disappear there.

But no, I was referring more to places like Saudi Arabia, where the billionaires are the government.
 
aociswundumho said:
Let's get to the point. Do you believe the wealthy use government regulation to enrich themselves?
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Yes and if you get rid of the government, they will fill the power vacuum and become defacto governments, like the East India company did:

en.m.wikipedia.org

East India Company - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

The wealthy do not want small government, they want socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor:

Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org

Your ideology doesn't work because it ignores all the times a corporation has violated human rights and ignores right wing big government ideologies like social conservatvism.
 
Yes_Minister said:
Yes and if you get rid of the government, they will fill the power vacuum and become defacto governments, like the East India company did:
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But you don't have to get rid of it. Simply reduce it's power over the economy, so that politicians cannot grant favors to corporations.

Yes_Minister said:
The wealthy do not want small government, they want socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor:

Socialism for the rich and capitalism for the poor - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org en.m.wikipedia.org
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I agree. With a small government, there's nothing for them to buy.

Yes_Minister said:
Your ideology doesn't work because it ignores all the times a corporation has violated human rights and ignores right wing big government ideologies like social conservatvism.
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aociswundumho said:
But you don't have to get rid of it. Simply reduce it's power over the economy, so that politicians cannot grant favors to corporations.
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And who will fill the vacuum when the government retreats from those sectors? Corporations, which we have established have no more virtue than any government. Nature cannot abide a vacuum and it will get filled whether you like it or not.
aociswundumho said:
I agree. With a small government, there's nothing for them to buy.
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Except your ideology will just create some nightmare Blade Runner future, not anything good.
 
Yes_Minister said:
And who will fill the vacuum when the government retreats from those sectors? Corporations, which we have established have no more virtue than any government. Nature cannot abide a vacuum and it will get filled whether you like it or not.


Except your ideology will just create some nightmare Blade Runner future, not anything good.
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There is exceptional value in much of the thought processes you've posted in that #48 post in this thread, and I am of the mind that because of the basics you have summarized in that post it is necessary for some sharp mind, or minds, to come up with a new form of government to replace that which we currently see used in the majority of the governments that scholars have taught us allow the citizens to be "free".

I may have posted that same idea around this community and am forgetting where. I know I have posted the idea of coming up with some new form of government elsewhere on the Net, but it seems the idea is so daunting that folks just brush the idea away, sort of like we'd brush away a fly on our hand as we engage in outdoor activities.

If that "New Government Fly" is seen when we are indoors, like at a gathering of political specialists, that New Government Fly is not brushed away; it is killed. Folks well established within a governing institution of some sort are scared of such ideas as figuring out something new.

But the "New Government" is definitely going to happen eventually. No doubt about it. Humans have developed their brains and habits in this supposedly free governing styles to the point that we've outgrown the existing governing institutions. And I think we may just have managed to survive blowing ourselves into nothingness with that mighty nasty piece of equipment that can be defined as a nuke. I honestly did not think we'd make it this far; that is, back in the 70s and into the 80s. But we did. Might be more out of luck, rather than brains.

So we need a whole new idea, folks. A whole new idea about how we should govern ourselves. Any of you have any ideas?
 
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