Going to Jail For Good Morals

[blackjack50]

This is a thought that I had the other day while coming out of my martial arts class. What would happen in a court of law if a LEGAL CCP holder shot an unarmed person in self defense? Now of course we can get into the Zimmerman issue, but this is more the scenario I was thinking.

My concern with the way lawyers are now...basically...if you pull a gun out in self defense because of a legitimate fear for your life or personal well being, and the situation changes to YOUR favor. The person surrenders. The police arrive. They get statements. They take evidence. You claim self defense. Of course...if the bad guy scuffled with you and you got the upper hand and they surrendered before you pull the trigger...you are legally obligated NOT to shoot them (not to mention the moral/ethical dilemma of unarmed person shooting anyway). They surrender you can no longer justify use of force. What happens when they tell the cops that they were begging for money and you tried to beat the crap out of them? They defended themselves and you pulled a gun when they started to win? Then they called the cops.

It is really just an interesting thought. I think I am not the only one who has a legitimate paranoia about lawyers and concealed carry. I don't like the idea of the possibility of going to jail over a GOOD decision because of a scummy lawyer. I do the ethically/morally correct thing and DON'T shoot the surrendering person. I mean there is a CHANCE that I spend thousands defending myself in court. Not to mention the chances of losing in court for a GOOD choice. Basically if the gun is pulled by a good guy, the good guy has to shoot.

ANOTHER issue to ponder that REALLY bothers me. I as a CCP holder CANNOT go onto a school campus. I am walking just off a college campus and I hear gunfire errupt. I SEE the shooter. I have my weapon and I CAN shoot the person. But of course my BULLETS cannot cross the threshold of that campus or else I am illegal. I cannot cross onto the campus either. So having the OPPORTUNITY to intervene and doing so...a good guy can go to jail.

I don't understand how lawyers opperate. I personally could not create a moral vaccum that skewed. But that isn't the issue. What do we as Concealed Carry Permit Holders do for such things? I suppose the ONLY thing we can do is have a good lawyer(aka $$$$$$$$) and hope our decision making is good. We also better sit by and watch when some whack goes into a gun free zone and starts shooting the bejesus out of the proverbial fish.

 

[SMTA]

You and I have very different views of carrying concealed.

I am not a cop, and have no interest of acting like one when carrying a gun.

I am not looking for scenarios where I can jump in armed and save the day.

I am not looking to be a hero.

My intentions are to protect my self and my family - that is all.

If the best defense is to move away from a problem without firing a shot, I would consider that a win.

 

[blackjack50]

You and I have very different views of carrying concealed.

I am not a cop, and have no interest of acting like one when carrying a gun.

I am not looking for scenarios where I can jump in armed and save the day.

I am not looking to be a hero.

My intentions are to protect my self and my family - that is all.

If the best defense is to move away from a problem without firing a shot, I would consider that a win.

But you mean to tell me you would not intercede if you saw someone else's life in jeopardy? I have no intentions of acting like a cop either. I am not trying to arrest bad guys. I have no intentions of wading into a gunfight for no reason. But if I saw someone whose life was in jeopardy, I don't believe that my moral compass would allow me to stand by and watch. I would feel an obligation to protect an innocent person. It isn't about punishment or being a hero, or anything like that. It is about keeping someone from harm.

I am a lifeguard. I would jump into the water to save someone from drowning. I would do CPR. Not because of being a hero, but because I would feel it to be necessary.

 

[spanky]

IMO a ConCarry is for personal defense, not to play Batman. For all you know the person you perceive to be the victim might not be the innocent one. Call the police, be a good witness and take care of your own business.

 

[samsmart]

This is a thought that I had the other day while coming out of my martial arts class. What would happen in a court of law if a LEGAL CCP holder shot an unarmed person in self defense? Now of course we can get into the Zimmerman issue, but this is more the scenario I was thinking.

My concern with the way lawyers are now...basically...if you pull a gun out in self defense because of a legitimate fear for your life or personal well being, and the situation changes to YOUR favor. The person surrenders. The police arrive. They get statements. They take evidence. You claim self defense. Of course...if the bad guy scuffled with you and you got the upper hand and they surrendered before you pull the trigger...you are legally obligated NOT to shoot them (not to mention the moral/ethical dilemma of unarmed person shooting anyway). They surrender you can no longer justify use of force. What happens when they tell the cops that they were begging for money and you tried to beat the crap out of them? They defended themselves and you pulled a gun when they started to win? Then they called the cops.

It is really just an interesting thought. I think I am not the only one who has a legitimate paranoia about lawyers and concealed carry. I don't like the idea of the possibility of going to jail over a GOOD decision because of a scummy lawyer. I do the ethically/morally correct thing and DON'T shoot the surrendering person. I mean there is a CHANCE that I spend thousands defending myself in court. Not to mention the chances of losing in court for a GOOD choice. Basically if the gun is pulled by a good guy, the good guy has to shoot.

ANOTHER issue to ponder that REALLY bothers me. I as a CCP holder CANNOT go onto a school campus. I am walking just off a college campus and I hear gunfire errupt. I SEE the shooter. I have my weapon and I CAN shoot the person. But of course my BULLETS cannot cross the threshold of that campus or else I am illegal. I cannot cross onto the campus either. So having the OPPORTUNITY to intervene and doing so...a good guy can go to jail.

I don't understand how lawyers opperate. I personally could not create a moral vaccum that skewed. But that isn't the issue. What do we as Concealed Carry Permit Holders do for such things? I suppose the ONLY thing we can do is have a good lawyer(aka $$$$$$$$) and hope our decision making is good. We also better sit by and watch when some whack goes into a gun free zone and starts shooting the bejesus out of the proverbial fish.

Honestly, I think there's a problem in the United States in which most people believe that the only force of self-defense should be a lethal force of self-defense.

I understand that people use guns for self-defense. But, truly, there are a lot of problems that come with that. Such as does a person with a lethal firearm actually had enough fear for their lives to use lethal force to defend themselves? And the police have to investigate to ensure it was self-defense and not some kind of foul play.

That's why I think non-lethal forms of self-defense should be better research, developed, manufactured, and marketed for people who wish to defend themselves but do not want to be lethal. Many women have cans of chemical mace in their purse or keychain. Personally, I would like it if we put better designs for tasers and the like.

That way lethal force would not be the only force in which people would feel the need to defend themselves with.

 

[joko104]

IMO a ConCarry is for personal defense, not to play Batman. For all you know the person you perceive to be the victim might not be the innocent one. Call the police, be a good witness and take care of your own business.

I do think total apathy towards others is mostly what the law is in real terms now. I don't see it as a good evolution. 10,000,000 non-drug felonies a year now.

It would be legal to pull up a chair, eat popcorn and drink a beer if you came across a man raping and murdering a child. No duty to even dial 911.

 

[joko104]

Honestly, I think there's a problem in the United States in which most people believe that the only force of self-defense should be a lethal force of self-defense.

I understand that people use guns for self-defense. But, truly, there are a lot of problems that come with that. Such as does a person with a lethal firearm actually had enough fear for their lives to use lethal force to defend themselves? And the police have to investigate to ensure it was self-defense and not some kind of foul play.

That's why I think non-lethal forms of self-defense should be better research, developed, manufactured, and marketed for people who wish to defend themselves but do not want to be lethal. Many women have cans of chemical mace in their purse or keychain. Personally, I would like it if we put better designs for tasers and the like.

That way lethal force would not be the only force in which people would feel the need to defend themselves with.

Many states outlaw non-lethal force weapons claiming they are tools for rapists. Examples are tazers and mace/pepper spray. In most states that outlaw those, a person could openly walk around with a 12 gauge shotgun in their hands except where weapons are specifically prohibited (schools, g-buildings, banks etc).

 

[H. Lee White]

This is a thought that I had the other day while coming out of my martial arts class. What would happen in a court of law if a LEGAL CCP holder shot an unarmed person in self defense?

It depends entirely on the situation. If Chuck Norris were beating you to death, you have every right to shoot him.

ANOTHER issue to ponder that REALLY bothers me. I as a CCP holder CANNOT go onto a school campus. I am walking just off a college campus and I hear gunfire errupt. I SEE the shooter. I have my weapon and I CAN shoot the person.

If you're just off-campus and see an on-campus crime that warrants the use of deadly force - say, someone raping a student - and then act, no DA in the country will prosecute you for having a gun on-campus.

 

[JackFrost]

I do think total apathy towards others is mostly what the law is in real terms now. I don't see it as a good evolution. 10,000,000 non-drug felonies a year now.

It would be legal to pull up a chair, eat popcorn and drink a beer if you came across a man raping and murdering a child. No duty to even dial 911.

I had extra butter on my popcorn. BTW, how did you know what I did last Saturday night:shock:

 

[joko104]

I had extra butter on popcorn. BTW, how did you know what I did last Saturday night:shock:

Naw, you were too busy pouring over statement transcripts in the GZ case. You're getting mighty close to finding the silver conviction bullet I'm sure. :lol:

 

[JackFrost]

Naw, you were too busy pouring over statement transcripts in the GZ case. You're getting mighty close to finding the silver conviction bullet I'm sure. :lol:

That was Sunday. Are you stalking me?! How do you know all this:shock:

 

[wolfman24]

IMO a ConCarry is for personal defense, not to play Batman. For all you know the person you perceive to be the victim might not be the innocent one. Call the police, be a good witness and take care of your own business.

the problem is that these guys think they are Wyatt Earp and the Mongol Hordes are invading the playground.

 

[SMTA]

I do think total apathy towards others is mostly what the law is in real terms now. I don't see it as a good evolution. 10,000,000 non-drug felonies a year now.

It would be legal to pull up a chair, eat popcorn and drink a beer if you came across a man raping and murdering a child. No duty to even dial 911.

Well played!

 

[blackjack50]

IMO a ConCarry is for personal defense, not to play Batman. For all you know the person you perceive to be the victim might not be the innocent one. Call the police, be a good witness and take care of your own business.

It isn't about bein "batman." It is about being a GOOD PERSON and not wanting to see some innocent person beaten to death in front of me. A store robbed at gunpoint while I stand by impotently and watch, even if they decide to shoot the store owner and run out. Who cares right? Just be a good witness? Let the woman behind the Walmart counter get stabbed to death by her ex-husband because...I can't tell that the knife wielding maniac isn't actually defending himself? No. Sorry. I won't ever let something like that happen and "be a good little witness."

That is part of the problem with this country. People don't understand what it means to have some sense of honor and responsibility. I don't carry my gun and draw it at every little injustice. No. That is a felony. But if someone's life is in danger? You want me to watch that happen? Just watch? Call the police and make sure I can tell them how many times that old guy was stabbed for his wallet? Maybe give a crappy description of the mugger? I don't know. Do unto others applies to me. I would want someone to intervene if I were in danger. I will do the same.

It isn't about being a hero. Don't insult people with civic duty. It is about helping out your fellow man.

McDonalds Beating - Two black girls beat down a white girl - YouTube

Man punches teenage girl at McDonald's for line jumping arguement - YouTube

That is what happens when people stand by and watch. Do you want those things to happen in front of you? I mean I may not have drawn my weapon in either situation. I am more than capable of handling unarmed confrontation. But do you think stopping either incident takes batman? If you notice police didn't show up in either video. Not till after.

 

[joko104]

That was Sunday. Are you stalking me?! How do you know all this:shock:

I keep a very careful eye on you, yes, but I'm just "watching" you, not "stalking" you. Where are you running off to hide on the forum now? That sort of thing. Every good citizens duty towards strangely acting suspicious people.

 

[blackjack50]

It depends entirely on the situation. If Chuck Norris were beating you to death, you have every right to shoot him.


If you're just off-campus and see an on-campus crime that warrants the use of deadly force - say, someone raping a student - and then act, no DA in the country will prosecute you for having a gun on-campus.

Do you really think so? About the campus? I mean obviously that scenario would NEVER happen. It just isn't a likely occurance. But do you really trust a slick lawyer? I mean a DA may not want to prosecute criminally, but what about a family lawyer of the possibily deceased suspect trying for a civil case? Maybe I am paranoid? I don't like lawyers though.

 

[blackjack50]

Honestly, I think there's a problem in the United States in which most people believe that the only force of self-defense should be a lethal force of self-defense.

I understand that people use guns for self-defense. But, truly, there are a lot of problems that come with that. Such as does a person with a lethal firearm actually had enough fear for their lives to use lethal force to defend themselves? And the police have to investigate to ensure it was self-defense and not some kind of foul play.

That's why I think non-lethal forms of self-defense should be better research, developed, manufactured, and marketed for people who wish to defend themselves but do not want to be lethal. Many women have cans of chemical mace in their purse or keychain. Personally, I would like it if we put better designs for tasers and the like.

That way lethal force would not be the only force in which people would feel the need to defend themselves with.

I personally carry OC Gel in my truck. It is a less lethal (really can't say "non lethal") option. I do so because I feel it is important to have the option. Not every situation calls for a gun. That is so very true. I also like the idea of better quality less lethal options. Not everyone is comfortable with a gun, nor capable with one. I think it is important to give them a chance at self defense when outmatched physically.

Part of the reason I hate school campus gun restrictions on concealed carry holders. I personally bought my girlfriend pepper spray (legal on campus) so she can carry it on campus at night (she has 1 night class). I am into self defense sure. I never really pushed the issue, but after seeing a rise in some campus crimes in the area I asked her if she would mind carrying some just to make me feel better. You run into the issue with the 85% effective OC sprays/gels and of course the taser problems too. So I agree they need to be increased in effectiveness, and I also believe that restrictions should be minimal on self defense tools (dart firing tasers...IDK the legislation on them, no "restricted capacity on OC sprays, nor minimization of % of active ingredient to under 10%).