vergiss said:From the book of Deuteronomy:
"022:023
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
022:024
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
022:025
But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
022:026
But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
022:027
For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her."
Sounds like fun.
vergiss said:From the book of Deuteronomy:
"022:023
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
022:024
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
022:025
But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
022:026
But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
022:027
For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her."
Sounds like fun.
vergiss said:I read it. I thought "Good grief." I spoke to my mother to make sure I was clear, and she was of a similar reaction.
Want me to translate it for you? In a nutshell, if a woman is raped in the country by a man who is not her fiance, her rapist shall be stoned to death because, being the country, there was no one around to hear he scream. However, if the same situation were in the city, she presumably wasn't raped, or else she'd have been heard screaming - therefore, she'll be stoned to death with the man.
A passage just above that one says that if a man marries a woman and then decides he doesn't like her, he can demand proof from her father that she was a virgin until her wedding night (ie bloody sheets). If he is unable to find the proof, she is to be stoned to death:
"22:13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
22:14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
22:15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
22:16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
22:18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
22:19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
22:20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you."
Don't make the foolish of mistake of thinking I'm just some cynical atheist playing around with Bible quotes. I'm Jewish. I respect the Old Testament and I've been taught about it since childhood. My problem lies with fundamentalists who get anal retentive about certain passages, then conveniently ignore the existence of others. Either be literal about it all, or cut the rest some slack.
What worked 2000 years ago isn't going to work now, and if God's frothing at the mouth regarding homosexuality or whatever, technically he should also be having a hissy fit everytime you eat bacon.
Exodus 35:2 says that those who work on the Sabbath day should be put to death. I don't exactly see that mass executions every Saturday, do you?
vergiss said:I read it. I thought "Good grief." I spoke to my mother to make sure I was clear, and she was of a similar reaction.
Want me to translate it for you? In a nutshell, if a woman is raped in the country by a man who is not her fiance, her rapist shall be stoned to death because, being the country, there was no one around to hear he scream. However, if the same situation were in the city, she presumably wasn't raped, or else she'd have been heard screaming - therefore, she'll be stoned to death with the man.
A passage just above that one says that if a man marries a woman and then decides he doesn't like her, he can demand proof from her father that she was a virgin until her wedding night (ie bloody sheets). If he is unable to find the proof, she is to be stoned to death:
"22:13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,
22:14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:
22:15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:
22:16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;
22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.
22:18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;
22:19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.
22:20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you."
Don't make the foolish of mistake of thinking I'm just some cynical atheist playing around with Bible quotes. I'm Jewish. I respect the Old Testament and I've been taught about it since childhood. My problem lies with fundamentalists who get anal retentive about certain passages, then conveniently ignore the existence of others. Either be literal about it all, or cut the rest some slack. What worked 2000 years ago isn't going to work now, and if God's frothing at the mouth regarding homosexuality or whatever, technically he should also be having a hissy fit everytime you eat bacon.
Exodus 35:2 says that those who work on the Sabbath day should be put to death. I don't exactly see that mass executions every Saturday, do you?
HTColeman said:Back then, prior to Jesus ... there was no possibility for redemption, but now ... there is hope for us to redeem ourselves.
I don't understand this. Why couldn't God simply get his laws right the first time? I'd think he wouldn't hold anyone to laws that would only be revoked later. That's a double standard.YamiB. said:I believe this goes under the category of old laws that did not need to be followed after the death of Jesus.
Binary_Digit said:I don't understand this. Why couldn't God simply get his laws right the first time? I'd think he wouldn't hold anyone to laws that would only be revoked later. That's a double standard.
You are right, rape is still a crime (and a sin, I'm sure). I was replying to the statement "old laws that did not need to be followed after the death of Jesus" which implies that certain laws were revoked. Not just the method of punishment, but the actual law. Or are you suggesting that it's still a sin to be raped within city limits?leejosepho said:There is no double standard here -- no law has been revoked. Rape is still a crime, the offender is still to be punished (in whatever way), and forgiveness includes neither escape from punishment nor the ability to exonerate oneself.
Binary_Digit said:You are right, rape is still a crime (and a sin, I'm sure). I was replying to the statement "old laws that did not need to be followed after the death of Jesus" which implies that certain laws were revoked. Not just the method of punishment, but the actual law ...
Binary_Digit said:Or are you suggesting that it's still a sin to be raped within city limits?
vergiss said:One of my original points here is that ... according to the rules of God - you could be stoned to death for being raped and not having anyone within hearing distance to rescue you.
vergiss said:From the book of Deuteronomy:
"022:023
If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
022:024
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbor's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.
022:025
But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.
022:026
But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbor, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:
022:027
For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her."
Sounds like fun.
vergiss said:Leejosepho - how have I misunderstood? It quite clearly says that if a woman isn't heard crying out during her rape, then she is to be punished as well ...
vergiss said:In a nutshell, if a woman is raped in the country by a man who is not her fiance, her rapist shall be stoned to death because, being the country, there was no one around to hear he scream.
vergiss said:However, if the same situation were in the city, she presumably wasn't raped, or else she'd have been heard screaming - therefore, she'll be stoned to death with the man.
vergiss said:It's seriously not hard to imagine that most women don't have anyone in earshot to hear them at the time ...
vergiss said:In that case, so are the arguments against homosexuality. After all, they're just tampered, Old Testament mistranslations, too.
Thank you for helping my point.
(Keep in mind, by the way, the "New Testament is more correct" rule doesn't apply to us Jews - nor, it seems, the fundamentalist Christians who enjoy quoting from it every thirty seconds.)
Leejosepho - how have I misunderstood? It quite clearly says that if a woman isn't heard crying out during her rape, then she is to be punished as well. It's seriously not hard to imagine that most women don't have anyone in earshot to hear them at the time, as definitely not all rapes are stopped by rescuers.
vergiss said:In that case, so are the arguments against homosexuality. After all, they're just tampered, Old Testament mistranslations, too.
Thank you for helping my point.
(Keep in mind, by the way, the "New Testament is more correct" rule doesn't apply to us Jews - nor, it seems, the fundamentalist Christians who enjoy quoting from it every thirty seconds.)
Leejosepho - how have I misunderstood? It quite clearly says that if a woman isn't heard crying out during her rape, then she is to be punished as well. It's seriously not hard to imagine that most women don't have anyone in earshot to hear them at the time, as definitely not all rapes are stopped by rescuers.
Windy said:Vergis..do you believe the bible ?
I ask you this because if you don't ; why does it matter so much to you.
The other week I was going to join a social club , it looked pretty good
so I got the application form . When I looked at the rules I didn't want to join .
They lost no sleep over me not joining , I lost no sleep over not joining .
I wont carry on whining about some rules that I didn't want to follow .
The same thing applies here if you don't like the rules ; don't join .
If you do join ; you have to follow the rules or else whats the point ?
vergiss said:That's all well and good, but yes - I do, to a certain extent. The Old Testament, anyway. However, I do not believe in following every single word literally.
I have to follow the rules? How much so? So then you say I should obey the rule about stoning rape victims to death? In that case, my parents have the authority to sell me off to the first bidder, too?
vergiss said:Leejosepho - again, you miss my point. Hypothetically, what if a woman (who isn't mute) is raped in the city, and screams, but no one was around to hear it? Then they'd say that she hadn't (even though she had) and stone her to death just for being the victim of a crime.
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