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German 2025 election

joluoto

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German election 2025: Economy, Ukraine and JD Vance dominate final debate


Of course CDU has a big lead in the polls, so we can probably be quite confident that there will be a Chancellor Merz in the future. I do like his assertion that he would not "be told by an American vice president who I can and cannot talk to", regarding Vance's recent statements about European "firewalls" (unofficial agreement in Germany between the parties to not have coalition talks with AfD). And I would even add that the German firewall is pretty unique, you don't really find somthing like that elsewhere. It's almost like Germany has really bad experience with the far right.
 

German election 2025: Economy, Ukraine and JD Vance dominate final debate


Of course CDU has a big lead in the polls, so we can probably be quite confident that there will be a Chancellor Merz in the future. I do like his assertion that he would not "be told by an American vice president who I can and cannot talk to", regarding Vance's recent statements about European "firewalls" (unofficial agreement in Germany between the parties to not have coalition talks with AfD). And I would even add that the German firewall is pretty unique, you don't really find somthing like that elsewhere. It's almost like Germany has really bad experience with the far right.
Merz cynically calls AfD 'far right' because that is to the CDUs' advantage. And the Socialists trot along behind him hoping for another 'traffic light' coalition. Only AfD could bring much needed change to German stagnation. But unfortunately they will not even come close to winning a majority. Modern Germany has had really bad experience of disparate parties strung together in unworkable coalitions.
 
Merz cynically calls AfD 'far right' because that is to the CDUs' advantage. And the Socialists trot along behind him hoping for another 'traffic light' coalition. Only AfD could bring much needed change to German stagnation. But unfortunately they will not even come close to winning a majority. Modern Germany has had really bad experience of disparate parties strung together in unworkable coalitions.
How would AfD bring "much needed change to German stagnation"?
 
Merz cynically calls AfD 'far right' because that is to the CDUs' advantage. And the Socialists trot along behind him hoping for another 'traffic light' coalition. Only AfD could bring much needed change to German stagnation. But unfortunately they will not even come close to winning a majority. Modern Germany has had really bad experience of disparate parties strung together in unworkable coalitions.
Well, if you extend "modern" back to (say) April 1945, its experience with Nazis have been even worse.

As to coalitions in general, with the exception of Adenauer's win in 1957 (where his CDU won more than 50 pct), there have always been coalitions.

And even there he coalesced with the DP (Deutsche Partei, now extinct).

The problem with the current coalition (well, current til the coming weekend) was and is getting three parties into bed with one another, where at least one completely lacked bedside manners.

As to only AfD being able to bring change to stagnation, I suggest you need to change your newsfeed.;)
 
Of the three government parties all of them backslided while in government, but the Greens seem to have recovered and are now polling around 13%, which would only be a little worse than 2021. SPD polling around 15% is bad, but they are actually not the government party that has taken the worst dive in the polls. Sure they are down by alot, but FDP is now polling below the barrier to have any representation at all. The threshold is 5%, and in the polls their support seem to be around 4-5%, so they can make it, but it seems likely they will just miss the bar. And that means they are the party that is doing worst.

The question whether Die Linke or BSW will be the far left representatives after the election seem to now say: Why not both? Die Linke is now actually polling better than BSW, around 6-7%, while BSW has support around 5% (which, yes, means if they are just a little weaker than the polls indicate, they won't make it).
 
Merz cynically calls AfD 'far right' because that is to the CDUs' advantage. And the Socialists trot along behind him hoping for another 'traffic light' coalition. Only AfD could bring much needed change to German stagnation. But unfortunately they will not even come close to winning a majority. Modern Germany has had really bad experience of disparate parties strung together in unworkable coalitions.
ew
 
Only AfD could bring much needed change to German stagnation.

I'm not going to add to the ridicule your comments already rightly received but have you looked at the map of where they get their support?
 
Yes I have looked at the map and wish the support for AfD was more widespread.

Ever thought about WHY their support is pretty much what was once East Germany? Same thing happened in former Yugoslavia and various other nations that escaped the yoke of the Soviet Union and found Western freedoms a bit hard to make work.

Happily for me I am impervious to ridicule

I don't ridicule you, I ridicule your support for the AfD, Swedish Democrats, Brexit etc etc.
 
Yes I have looked at the map and wish the support for AfD was more widespread. Happily for me I am impervious to ridicule


Here is the party's manifesto. I agree with almost all of it.

Their manifesto spreads hate, their words spread hate and even most of their faces spread ugly hate. I wouldn´t vote for them even if they were "the last chance to save the country" - what´s a silly lie btw
 

German election 2025: Economy, Ukraine and JD Vance dominate final debate


Of course CDU has a big lead in the polls, so we can probably be quite confident that there will be a Chancellor Merz in the future. I do like his assertion that he would not "be told by an American vice president who I can and cannot talk to", regarding Vance's recent statements about European "firewalls" (unofficial agreement in Germany between the parties to not have coalition talks with AfD). And I would even add that the German firewall is pretty unique, you don't really find somthing like that elsewhere. It's almost like Germany has really bad experience with the far right.

The arrogance and lecturing of the new administration is insufferable.
 
Alliance with Putin and removal of all people that look, feel or smell foreign, I guess.

This may be typical but I noticed how bland and pragmatic their manifesto is. Aside from a few specifics I also noted that the word "Ukraine" appears nowhere, and Russia appears twice as a power that is important to please.

I also note they want a big military and foreign forces of NATO off German territory.

After what is already happening with Trump's US knifing Ukraine in the back, its clear that this party wants to help.
 
Aside from a few specifics I also noted that the word "Ukraine" appears nowhere, and Russia appears twice as a power that is important to please.

I also note they want a big military and foreign forces of NATO off German territory.

From what I've read, AfD wants a kind of German "Brexit", reinstating ties to Russia and imports of Russian energy as well as getting rid of US NATO forces from Germany.

Looking at the map of AfD popularity which neatly fits over what was East Germany - no big surprises there.

 
From what I've read, AfD wants a kind of German "Brexit", reinstating ties to Russia and imports of Russian energy as well as getting rid of US NATO forces from Germany.

Looking at the map of AfD popularity which neatly fits over what was East Germany - no big surprises there.

The East German AfD voters are much more anti Russian than the Wessies. Your supposition that they are longing to be once again a Russian colony is the opposite of reality. You have some very strange ideas. The Germans in the East no more wish to be be ruled from Moscow that from Brussels.
 
The East German AfD voters are much more anti Russian than the Wessies. Your supposition that they are longing to be once again a Russian colony is the opposite of reality. You have some very strange ideas. The Germans in the East no more wish to be be ruled from Moscow that from Brussels.

a) you didn't look at that map did you?
b) you didn't really read the AfD manifesto either did you apart from the bit about leaving the EU?
 
From what I've read, AfD wants a kind of German "Brexit", reinstating ties to Russia and imports of Russian energy as well as getting rid of US NATO forces from Germany.

Looking at the map of AfD popularity which neatly fits over what was East Germany - no big surprises there.


Very sad. Thirty years ago, the East German vassals of the Soviet Union (ie Russia) were elated at cutting ties with their former masters, and joining West Germany - at a price that the West Germans generously paid. I'll bet that not one in a thousand east Germans wanted to drag their new nation towards Russia.

What no one realized is that whatever eastern Germany was prior to Hitler, by the time the Soviets were finished the root of totalitarian mindsets and Russia as a mother state was sunk deep into their identity. In other words, letting East Germany into the western orbit didn't take the "Russian" out of east Germany, it let leanings of Russian style fascism into the west. The people who tolerated the Stasi are now attempting to drag Germany back to pleasing mother Russia.

Needless to say, this delights Putin. Breaking up NATO into islands of vulnerability gives him a free hand to rebuild his vision of a new Russian empire. It's a chance to make the west fully dependent on Russian energy, and promote his own corrupt Russian oligarchs into the west.

So why didn't the Poles slide into this kind of depravity? Well, because their nationalism is far clear headed and based on hundreds of years or Russian oppression. Like Ukrainians and the Baltic States and Finland and even the Czecks they are not fools and do not long to return into the embrace of "Godfather Russia".

Who does pine for the old days? East Germans, more than 1/2 of the Slovaks, and more than 1/2 of Hungry. Interestingly, it is the "country bumpkins" that lead the effort.

Very sad...very very sad.
 
Very sad. Thirty years ago, the East German vassals of the Soviet Union (ie Russia) were elated at cutting ties with their former masters, and joining West Germany - at a price that the West Germans generously paid. I'll bet that not one in a thousand east Germans wanted to drag their new nation towards Russia.

What no one realized is that whatever eastern Germany was prior to Hitler, by the time the Soviets were finished the root of totalitarian mindsets and Russia as a mother state was sunk deep into their identity. In other words, letting East Germany into the western orbit didn't take the "Russian" out of east Germany, it let leanings of Russian style fascism into the west. The people who tolerated the Stasi are now attempting to drag Germany back to pleasing mother Russia.

Needless to say, this delights Putin. Breaking up NATO into islands of vulnerability gives him a free hand to rebuild his vision of a new Russian empire. It's a chance to make the west fully dependent on Russian energy, and promote his own corrupt Russian oligarchs into the west.

So why didn't the Poles slide into this kind of depravity? Well, because their nationalism is far clear headed and based on hundreds of years or Russian oppression. Like Ukrainians and the Baltic States and Finland and even the Czecks they are not fools and do not long to return into the embrace of "Godfather Russia".

Who does pine for the old days? East Germans, more than 1/2 of the Slovaks, and more than 1/2 of Hungry. Interestingly, it is the "country bumpkins" that lead the effort.

Very sad...very very sad.
Where there is much truth in what you list, one need also see another aspect.

Namely that in the GDR there was nowhere near as much education on the German Nazi past as there was in the Western Federal Republic.

Education, that is, of the kind that showed a whole nation or, at least, a substantial majority of it, as having fallen to the Nazi rat catchers and thus most Germans could logically not be excluded from bearing responsibility.

All of this stressing the "hereafter" responsibility of everyone to not let that happen again.

The GDR took the easier way of locating all Nazis "as in the West", thus exempting all East Germans from ANY responsibility, seeing how it comprised "good communists" who thus couldn't possibly have a Nazi past, let alone future.

This is also now coming home to roost especially in East Germany.

Add the fact that the much hated regime itself was no longer the available address to which to send one's gripes, and psychologically replacing it with the then new Government was not a far step.

Western Nazi types saw fertile ground which to conveniently occupy and moved fast.

They immediately recruited AfD "brawn" while supplying the "brains" themselves.

Weidel is West German, Gauland is, Höcke is and practically the whole rest of the leadership is from West Germany.

In fact the whole party was founded in West Germany, but had completely different aims then, in the meantime having been undermined by the fascists from West Germany who saw their far more promising career chances in "the East".

On the principle of "if you want to gain power, you need to apply for it where the greater amount of easily led fools resides."

Parallels to your current leadership being purely coincidental.;)
 
The East German AfD voters are much more anti Russian than the Wessies. Your supposition that they are longing to be once again a Russian colony is the opposite of reality. You have some very strange ideas. The Germans in the East no more wish to be be ruled from Moscow that from Brussels.

These "much more anti-Russians" east germans who vote for the far right are the one's attempting to weaken their own western security and assume that all you need to do is please Russia. If they think they are more "anti-Russian" then they are not only lying to us, but to themselves.

I happen to be one of those increasingly rare folks on the right that supports at least in principle, what the nationalist right of Germany and the US are trying to accomplish domestically. Low immigration, a strong rapid response military, subordination of DEI to merit, caution towards Muslim ideology, and a greater free market are also what I share. I even support exit from the political (but not the economic) structure of the EU be a good idea.

But the whole point of NATO and some degree of EU economic integration is to protect ALL of members self-concepts of their democratic nationalism against its most likely enemy or adversary. It does not matter if the Czechs, Estonian's or Danish have much different national cultures and national goals for public and private expenditures, the whole point is to protect all their brands nationalisms with collective security against the only adversary they need fear - RUSSIA and its brand of autocratic and totalitarian and expansionist NATIONALISM.

The East German, Slovakian, and Hungarian furthest right don't get that.

After what Russia, in its various incarnations, have done to them their desire to abandon mutually supporting security for the risk going it alone is more than daffy, its pigheaded stupidity.
 
I even support exit from the political (but not the economic) structure of the EU be a good idea.

It's a whole other thread and discussion but I'm curious why so many now on the right see this as a good idea?
When we had the debates here, Cameron allowed for free choice so you had some right wing Conservatives siding with left Labour representatives to argue for leaving while you also had right wing Conservatives arguing to remain alongside Left wing Labour supporters.

In the final act of fratricide, Boris Johnson expelled all the Conservatives who voted to Remain which meant a large part of the old centre-ground for Conservatives have gone. Interestingly, the more extreme Right and extreme Left both argued strongly to leave.. obviously for very different reasons.
 
Where there is much truth in what you list, one need also see another aspect.

Namely that in the GDR there was nowhere near as much education on the German Nazi past as there was in the Western Federal Republic.

Education, that is, of the kind that showed a whole nation or, at least, a substantial majority of it, as having fallen to the Nazi rat catchers and thus most Germans could logically not be excluded from bearing responsibility.

All of this stressing the "hereafter" responsibility of everyone to not let that happen again.

The GDR took the easier way of locating all Nazis "as in the West", thus exempting all East Germans from ANY responsibility, seeing how it comprised "good communists" who thus couldn't possibly have a Nazi past, let alone future.

This is also now coming home to roost especially in East Germany.

Add the fact that the much hated regime itself was no longer the available address to which to send one's gripes, and psychologically replacing it with the then new Government was not a far step.

Western Nazi types saw fertile ground which to conveniently occupy and moved fast.

They immediately recruited AfD "brawn" while supplying the "brains" themselves.

Weidel is West German, Gauland is, Höcke is and practically the whole rest of the leadership is from West Germany.

In fact the whole party was founded in West Germany, but had completely different aims then, in the meantime having been undermined by the fascists from West Germany who saw their far more promising career chances in "the East".

On the principle of "if you want to gain power, you need to apply for it where the greater amount of easily led fools resides."

Parallels to your current leadership being purely coincidental.;)

Your rundown on the western far right leadership and their appeal to East German "brawn" is interesting. But it appears that the "brawn' are the ones that supply the votes, based in East Germany. And, let us not forget, it was the east German "brain" of Angela Merkle that led her to the same folly of making Germany dependent on Russian energy.

The tangential point regarding East German education doesn't sound exactly right. The communists were in charge for 45 years, and as such probably saturated the youth with anti-German Nazi education. How they taught that might have been disingenuous and avoided criticizing aspects that echo'ed the crimes of the Soviet Union, and blamed German industrialists, but I would think that they didn't let the shared guilt of the German people off the hook.

Still, perhaps you are correct. Did the Soviets avoid holding Germans as a whole sharing the guilt, perhaps so.
 
It's a whole other thread and discussion but I'm curious why so many now on the right see this as a good idea?
When we had the debates here, Cameron allowed for free choice so you had some right wing Conservatives siding with left Labour representatives to argue for leaving while you also had right wing Conservatives arguing to remain alongside Left wing Labour supporters.

In the final act of fratricide, Boris Johnson expelled all the Conservatives who voted to Remain which meant a large part of the old centre-ground for Conservatives have gone. Interestingly, the more extreme Right and extreme Left both argued strongly to leave.. obviously for very different reasons.
Pertaining to the paradox that governed Britain, I reckon one need give attention (and credit) to the fact that UK entering the European community happened at a time when that was simply the EEC (IOW a body of mutual cooperation in matters of economics and trade).

It then (step upon step) morph into the European Union that we have today, and those critical in the UK of this development in decade after decade were almost always appeased by the British powers that be with the attitude of "Don't worry, we know what we're doing and nothing will change from what we agreed to initially".

Of course things did change with every morphing step of the EU and every UK government, irrespective of political lean, failed to address such worries, let alone to disperse them with constructive explanations.

Not to be misunderstood here, I hold the EU, even with all its failings, to be the better option to be in rather outside of, yet in my perception the Brit elite mostly treated the critics with extreme arrogance.

That kind of thing eventually comes home to roost, most often by populists harvesting the thus fertile ground.

The AfD, incidentally, was founded with exactly that kind of Euro-criticism in mind and at the time mainly consisted of economists who were leery of Brussels in general and the common currency in particular.

Until, equally step by step, those comparatively reasonable members were driven out by the fascists taking over.
 
It's a whole other thread and discussion but I'm curious why so many now on the right see this as a good idea?
When we had the debates here, Cameron allowed for free choice so you had some right wing Conservatives siding with left Labour representatives to argue for leaving while you also had right wing Conservatives arguing to remain alongside Left wing Labour supporters.

In the final act of fratricide, Boris Johnson expelled all the Conservatives who voted to Remain which meant a large part of the old centre-ground for Conservatives have gone. Interestingly, the more extreme Right and extreme Left both argued strongly to leave.. obviously for very different reasons.

Perhaps not so different. The far left and right in the US often end up on the same side against the middle. Populism often sees what is good for the working man (the left) or the common man (right) as a measure of what is good.

The history of populism here is one of extreme distrust of big banks, big business, and big government. "BIG" and powerful institutions, public and private, are by nature suspect.

Of course, far left populism agrees with the right on big private economic enterprises as suspect but have no animosity, and even trust, big government power.

As far as the EU is concerned the size of it is not a concern for me and in economic terms is mainly a benefit, on average. And I don't have a problem with big business in any form. I do have a problem with the big and centralized government and the state.

So, in my view, as a national of the UK, or Germany, or Hungry (etc) I would oppose an EU determined to centralize political authority at the cost of national sovereignty.

There is a difference between an economic and a political union - which makes a choice between exit or staying in the EU difficult.
 
How do political parties compete against each other when, ultimately, you know they will just form a coalition? Doesn’t it ultimately result in two choices? As time goes on in Germany, every election might as well be 'AfD or no
 
Your rundown on the western far right leadership and their appeal to East German "brawn" is interesting. But it appears that the "brawn' are the ones that supply the votes, based in East Germany.
Oh, undoubtedly.

That's why the fascists from West Germany cultivated the fields there.
And, let us not forget, it was the east German "brain" of Angela Merkle that led her to the same folly of making Germany dependent on Russian energy.
Actually Germany relying of cheap Russian gas started in Soviet times already, long before Merkel forsook GDR citizenship, let alone took office in Berlin.
The tangential point regarding East German education doesn't sound exactly right. The communists were in charge for 45 years, and as such probably saturated the youth with anti-German Nazi education. How they taught that might have been disingenuous and avoided criticizing aspects that echo'ed the crimes of the Soviet Union, and blamed German industrialists, but I would think that they didn't let the shared guilt of the German people off the hook.
I repeat that the GDR bosses, after prosecuting (in the late 40s and up to the mid-50s) what Nazi criminals wound up on their soil, declared the matter to be closed. Their education consisted of making everybody a good socialist on the way to achieving the ultimate goal of communism. Any German Nazi, according to their narrative, lived in the West.

All guilt, as far as they were concerned, had been taken care of with the founding of their Republic.

Period.
Still, perhaps you are correct. Did the Soviets avoid holding Germans as a whole sharing the guilt, perhaps so.
The Soviets didn't even rock the boat much with West Germany on that issue. Trade was more important.

Realpolitik.
 
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