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Asking me when I decided I was heterosexual as a point that there is no choice to being homosexual usually holds no validity with heterosexuals. Heterosexuals consider heterosexual intercourse to be natural while homosexual intercourse is unnatural. Therefore, there is no need to legitimize heterosexuality to refute the validity of homosexuality.
The argument that environmental factors may cause homosexuality is very valid in my view. However it doesn't in and of itself validate homosexuality, for me personally, since there are a great many mental disorders which are said to be caused by environmental factors. Don't take that to mean I think homosexuality is a mental disorder, I don't necessarily. I'm sure if I were homosexual I would have a different view on that. My personal religious views are not a strong enough factor for me to rely on in opposition to gay marriage so I've tried to find away to convince myself that it is valid through reading studies on the issue. Personally, I do not feel that homosexuality or gay marriage will affect me personally in anyway, however I do believe it will have some pretty serious affects on our society. Maybe good effects, maybe bad. Time will tell. That is more my concern than anything, and is the only reason I oppose it.
Since homosexuals can live "marriage-like" lifestyles now, and are as protected by hate laws and discrimination laws as are anyone else, I don't see that legalizing marriage would provide any benefit worthy of the potential risks involved with changing the societal definition of marriage.
Let people call themselves what they want, just don't force me to call it that.
Also, there are some important legal benefits to being married that don't come from just living together in a married-like lifestyle. One that comes to mind, that many don't consider, is spouses cannot be compelled to testify against their spouse in court.
Some others include being able to make medical decisions for the spouse,
What is so special about homosexual sex that it should be used as an excuse not to testify against someone you care about? If my best friend got in trouble, I wouldn't want to testify against him. I think my best friend and I are closer than most married couples. The trait that distinguishes us from a homosexual couple is that we don't have sex with each other. How does that make our relationship any less worthy of being protected from having to testify against each other?
Why? What if my spouse can't bring herself to pull the plug when I am a vegetable despite my wishes? Or what if I just don't want her to be burdened with that kind of responsibility? I would rather have my best friend making that kind of decision. Why can't I get the same privileges with my best friend?
I am somehow missing the logical connection that relates any of these privileges to sex.
What is so special about homosexual sex that it should be used as an excuse not to testify against someone you care about? If my best friend got in trouble, I wouldn't want to testify against him. I think my best friend and I are closer than most married couples. The trait that distinguishes us from a homosexual couple is that we don't have sex with each other. How does that make our relationship any less worthy of being protected from having to testify against each other?
Why? What if my spouse can't bring herself to pull the plug when I am a vegetable despite my wishes? Or what if I just don't want her to be burdened with that kind of responsibility? I would rather have my best friend making that kind of decision. Why can't I get the same privileges with my best friend?
I am somehow missing the logical connection that relates any of these privileges to sex.
No, you are mistakenly relating marriage to sex.
The government gives anyone who is married the right not to testify. At the moment, since only heterosexual marriages are recognized by the federal government, that means that only having heterosexual intimacies with someone actually gives you the right not to testify against your spouse.
So the question should be, what makes heterosexual sex so special that it determines who someone should be protected from testifying against or not being having testimony from them used against you?
Also, if you had same sex marriage, then you could marry your best friend legally if you would prefer to have him make all those decisions and get the benefits from that marriage. You could even enter into a civil marriage with him, and be privately married to a woman you loved if you prefer.
What is so special about heterosexual sex? I fail to see how the ability to procreate would give them the right to not testify against their spouse, their peer as the head of a family unit.
You could marry your best friend and not have sex.
You could also have a living will or give your best friend Power of Attorney.
You are focusing on one specific right here. There are tons of rights that married people are afforded.
No I can't. He's a dude. If my best friend was a chick I suppose I could do that. Then again, gay men can marry gay women and not have sex.
No. Precisely the opposite. Everyone else on the thread is relating marriage to sex, and I am the only one asking why. If you divorce the concept of marriage from the concept of sex, then the whole homosexual marriage argument falls apart. Straight men who want to marry other straight men are being discriminated against. Are they being discriminated against for being straight? Homosexual men who want to marry homosexual women are not being discriminated against. They are free to do so. Without connecting sex to marriage (and by marriage I mean this exclusive list of privileges of which we are speaking) then sexual orientation has no bearing.
See? Right there. You accuse me of mistakenly connecting sex and marriage, and then you connect them yourself in the very next paragraph.
Dunno. Seems silly to me. Maybe the government shouldn't be involved in giving out goodies based on your sexual relationships. Whaddaya think?
Also, if you had same sex marriage, then you could marry your best friend legally if you would prefer to have him make all those decisions and get the benefits from that marriage. You could even enter into a civil marriage with him, and be privately married to a woman you loved if you prefer.
Sex is not marriage. A civil marriage to someone is directly giving them the legal rights to make those decisions. And the spousal testimony rights are directly from the US government. You haven't really argued against anything I have said.
The government gives anyone who is married the right not to testify. At the moment, since only heterosexual marriages are recognized by the federal government, that means that only having heterosexual intimacies with someone actually gives you the right not to testify against your spouse. So the question should be, what makes heterosexual sex so special that it determines who someone should be protected from testifying against or not being having testimony from them used against you?
And gay couples could be publicly married to someone of the opposite sex, and privately married to someone of the same sex.
Marriage just isn't a business in which the government should be involved.
I know, right? It's kinda ridiculous.
Gay men can also have a living will or give their partner power of attorney.
Does it pain you that much to use the word Marriage to describe a Gay couples union? That seems somewhat childish.
I'm not insinuating anything. I was asking a question. A great majority of the folks that I have communicated with that are in support of gay marriage say that the studies indicate that people are born gay, when in fact there is no study that says that. every study I have read on homosexuality concludes that homosexuality MAY be caused by some combination of genetics or environmental factors but also usually state no proof exists. My point is that people who say the studies say this, that or the other thing should read and understand them first.
Asking me when I decided I was heterosexual as a point that there is no choice to being homosexual usually holds no validity with heterosexuals. Heterosexuals consider heterosexual intercourse to be natural while homosexual intercourse is unnatural. Therefore, there is no need to legitimize heterosexuality to refute the validity of homosexuality.
The argument that environmental factors may cause homosexuality is very valid in my view. However it doesn't in and of itself validate homosexuality, for me personally, since there are a great many mental disorders which are said to be caused by environmental factors. Don't take that to mean I think homosexuality is a mental disorder, I don't necessarily. I'm sure if I were homosexual I would have a different view on that. My personal religious views are not a strong enough factor for me to rely on in opposition to gay marriage so I've tried to find away to convince myself that it is valid through reading studies on the issue.
Personally, I do not feel that homosexuality or gay marriage will affect me personally in anyway, however I do believe it will have some pretty serious affects on our society. Maybe good effects, maybe bad. Time will tell. That is more my concern than anything, and is the only reason I oppose it.
Since homosexuals can live "marriage-like" lifestyles now, and are as protected by hate laws and discrimination laws as are anyone else, I don't see that legalizing marriage would provide any benefit worthy of the potential risks involved with changing the societal definition of marriage.
In psychology, there is no such thing as proof of causation, so the language used is always the "may be caused," "research supports the hypothesis," etc. kind. It's not concrete what the exact cause of different sexual orientations is, but that's the way it looks so far. So if it is a combination of genetics, pre-natal and post-natal environment, brain structure, or whatever, it's fair to say that research supports the generalization that people are "born gay."
Regardless, I really don't understand what your point in debating the cause of homosexuality is. Let's pretend it has nothing to do with any kind of predisposition (even though research indicates otherwise), what is your alternative hypothesis? What do you think causes it? And why does that have any bearing on this discussion? Something has to cause it, since people blatantly don't choose their sexuality.
I'm talking about sexual orientation in general. People don't choose it. People don't choose to be gay just like people don't choose to be straight. Your avoidance of my question makes me think that you didn't choose your sexual orientation.
Difference between homosexuality and any mental disorder is that homosexuality itself hasn't been found to have any inherently negative effects on any aspect of humans. Whereas obsessive-compulsive disorder, for example, has serious negative consequences for the individual and antisocial personality disorder, for example, can lead to negative effects for both the individual others in society, there are no analogous negative effects associated with homosexuality itself for the individual or for other members of society.
I mean, what makes you believe there will be serious effects on our society? As others have pointed out, there are now 9 nations around the world that have legalized same-sex marriage, as well as 5 states and the District of Columbia here in the U.S. I haven't heard of any kind of societal collapse as a result, and it's been legal for years in some places. If you have heard about these negative effects, please point me to the article or report. On top of that, research indicates that same-sex marriage improves the lives of LGBT people and their families. And all I've heard about the negative effects are empty assertions about societal collapse without even an ounce of concrete evidence to support such radical assertions. So what ON EARTH makes you believe that there will be serious "bad" effects on society? Just a hunch?
Except that we are social creatures who create family units. The government has a vested interest in promoting family units. Sex is not necessary to have a family. Most of the time, it is a part of marriage though.
The government is discriminating against a group of people who wish to have their family unit given the same treatment from the government.
That isn't the whole family package of rights though.
Han and Chewie are a family unit. Why shouldn't they receive the same benefits that Beru and Owen do?
Yeah. that is the entire point of marriage licenses. It is in fact the sole reason they exist.
Ok, well, those were the examples that were given. Use another example and I will be happy to demonstrate how it too should be equally applicable to Han and Chewie despite the platonic nature of their relationship.
Actually, if Han and Chewie existed, they absolutely should be allowed to enter into a legal marriage contract. (Just so you realize, in the Star Wars universe, I'm pretty sure that Chewbacca was considered a humanoid adult that could legally consent to enter into contracts with other humanoids, such as marriage.) In fact, I bet a lot of people on the pro-SSM would have no problem if two guy friends feel that they are close enough to enter into a legal marriage contract with each other, whatever their reasons. Although, it might be a disadvantage to them if either or both of them happen to find a partner (of whatever gender) that they would rather be married to and give those legal/medical decisions to instead.
What's the possibility that they are doing so simply for the financial benifits, and the right not to have to testify against each other, and then when other situations arise that necisitate dissolution they simply file for an uncontested divorce? Benifit to society?
Probably about the same or even less of a possibility than some opposite sex couples doing so for the same reasons. I don't really know why people think that this would be prevalent when same sex marriage is legal than it is with opposite sex marriage legal. I knew a few people in the military who would marry someone just to get the housing and/or the benefits. They usually only got caught if they were doing something stupid, like not living together or lying about where one of them was living. How do you prove someone is in love? How do you prove that a couple is not marrying for financial reasons? And, would it be much different than marrying because the couple had a kid together, but they really didn't like each other after that one night affair, so they decide to just have an open marriage?
So, you know people in the military that twisted, broke, or disregarded the rules?
Han and Chewie are a family unit. Why shouldn't they receive the same benefits that Beru and Owen do?
Ok, well, those were the examples that were given. Use another example and I will be happy to demonstrate how it too should be equally applicable to Han and Chewie despite the platonic nature of their relationship.
Han has the hots for Leah. I don't know who Beru and Owen are.
If they want to be a family, that's fine with me.
All the rights included in marriage. Han and Chewie should be able to get married if they so choose.
Beru and Owen were Luke's aunt and uncle. They were the ones burned while he was out searching for C3PO and R2D2.
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