Free Speech Regarding the Holocaust

[FireFly]

What Toben & Holocaust
'Deniers' Really Believe
By Rev. Ted Pike
10-14-8

While incarcerated in ancient Rome, the apostle Paul was informed about Christianity that, "Everywhere it is spoken against." (Acts 28:22) Much of this bad press was the result of Jewish anti-Christianity. The Book of Acts indicates that wherever many Christian -persecuting Jews lived and traveled, they created a counterfeit, contemptible image of Christ and Christianity. As a result, any decent person could not help but despise the followers of Christ. Yet, the history of Christianity shows that systems of thought which are initially rejected because they are misrepresented can astonish the world with their growth and success.

"Holocaust denial" today is held in contempt by most media and mankind. Yet, as with early Christianity, this disdain is the result of public acceptance of a distortion-largely attributable to Jewish media. These are descendents of those ancient tale-bearers who attempted to also destroy the infant church.

This misrepresentation begins with Zionist definition of the Holocaust as the systematic extermination of six million Jews -- a genocide that will admit of numbers no less. To publicly lessen that sacred figure is now a thought crime which, under Zionist-inspired German hate laws, can land you in jail for at least five years. Dr. Fredrick Toben doubted the six-million figure on his Australian website and is now under arrest in Britain, facing deportation and almost certain imprisonment in Germany.

I specialize in free speech issues, not the Holocaust. Yet, seeing sincere inquirers like Germar Rudolph, Ernst Zundel, and now Dr. Toben pilloried and even possibly imprisoned for questioning "Holocaust reality," I am goaded to clear the air on their much misrepresented beliefs.

What They Really Say


Actually, Holocaust reductionists agree that a holocaust of 72 million dead worldwide did occur during World War II and Jews were a part of it; but not six million.

Reductionists don't deny that Hitler and Nazis hated Jews. The Nazis had experienced an abortive Jewish Bolshevik German coup in 1918-19 under Rosa Luxemburg; they knew Jewish activists and financiers had been behind world revolutionary attempts to overthrow Russia and western Christian civilization. They also knew this spirit of revolution emanated from Talmudic Judaism. As anti-Communists, the Nazis violently opposed Jewish left-wing activism. Toward that end, without Christian perspective and restraint, they persecuted and murdered countless Jews.

Yet, Holocaust reductionists contend that most Jewish victims died as a result of war's devastation, not a systematic program of extermination. It is historical fact that in the last months of the war extreme food shortages caused near starvation in Germany. Massive typhus epidemics ravaged Axis detention camps. Reductionists say these influences, not just Nazi cruelty, were the largest causes of the horrific spectacle of emaciated prisoners and heaped-up bodies viewed by Allied deliverers.

Especially in World Wars I and II, tales of unspeakable atrocities were circulated by governments, media and military on both sides. This was to incite such rage in combatants that they could remorselessly machine gun or bayonet opponents who shared their own Christian, European heritage. Yet, during World War II Zionist-dominated media conditioned the Allies to believe Jews were being decimated. It is not surprising then that Europe's liberators, arriving at Dachau, Auschwitz, etc. and viewing such scenes of horror, reflexively blamed a systematic Nazi murder campaign.

Reductionists say gas chambers existed in the camps to fumigate the lice-bearing typhus-infested clothing of thousands of prisoners and staff, not to murder living Jews. They also point to an interview by Jewish researcher David Cole with the archives director of Auschwitz. He casually admits that the present "gas chambers" in Auschwitz I, which helped make Holocaust "believers" out of hundreds of millions until the 21st century, were actually built by the post-WWII occupying Russians in 1948. (Powered by: Doteasy - Bannerless Free Web Hosting and Email for Small Business and Individual
david_cole_high_resolution.wmv
Download David Cole video here [66MB]) Similarly, reductionists say crematoria were used to dispose mainly of typhus-diseased bodies, not to exterminate Jews. They point out that in the last years of the war Germany carefully guarded every ounce of fuel to energize the war effort; they would not waste it just for the fiendish pleasure of burning millions of Jewish bodies.

I have briefly stated the major reductionists' arguments, not necessarily to maintain them, a task which would require much greater documentation. Rather, I want to simply represent their position accurately-something Zionist-dominated and Christian media is not honest enough to do.

Only Liars Need Straw Men


If we have to misrepresent an ideological enemy's point of view and create a vulnerable "straw man" to defeat it, we have already admitted that our opponent's real premises are true and too formidable to engage. If we have the truth, we don't need to distort an opponent's premises. Instead, we vanquish them on the level field of truthful debate.

Reductionists, at the very least, raise questions that are not preposterous. If their viewpoint is false, it should be defeated by honest, public, scientific inquiry. If the Holocaust's six-million figure were true beyond all doubt, reductionist arguments would quickly evaporate once confronted. The fact that Holocaust defenders must misrepresent, ridicule and even imprison questioners powerfully suggests that the "fact" of six million Jewish dead rests on a very shaky foundation.

More than 60 years have passed since the alleged murder of six million Jews is alleged to have occurred. Enormous research of World War II has transpired. Much is the result of independent, scientific study and historical inquiry by curious researchers and academics. Rather than being further misrepresented and even criminalized, they should be free to engage with establishment counterparts in a truly scientific investigation of what really happened in the German camps during World War II. Only this can finally establish truth.

All oppressive systems-from Roman Catholicism during the Inquisition to Communism and Nazism-have suppressed free inquiry and expression of ideas that contradicted the official view. Offenders were punished by the same gestapo tactics now imposed on Dr. Toben and an increasing number of independent reductionist thinkers.

The true facts about the Holocaust may be debated for centuries. But right now we must allow free speech for Dr. Toben and this well-researched movement. It is tragic that though Christians/conservatives increasingly oppose loss of free speech from "hate laws" created by the Jewish activist Anti-Defamation League, they hypocritically join these very Jewish supremacists in misrepresenting and denying free speech for those who want to re-evaluate the Holocaust.

Those who actually possess truth do not oppose free expression, even of evil ideas; they know those ideas must first be expressed in order for them to be confronted and defeated. If free expression is not allowed, true ideas cannot destroy false ones.

Anyone who claims that false ideas should be destroyed through misrepresentation, censorship or imprisonment speaks not for God and reason but for dictators and the devil.


HERE'S WHAT YOU CAN DO!


Call the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) which arrested Toben: 011 44 20 7796 8500

Call the three largest parties in Parliament:

Labour Party: 011 44 87 0590 0200

Conservative Party: 011 44 20 7222 9000

Liberal Democrat Party: 011 44 20 7222 7999


Tell them: "Please free Dr. Frederic Toben from arrest and extradition for the 'thought crime' of questioning the methods and numbers of the Holocaust."

Or, come here at truthtellers.org and email or fax our longer message to political leaders in England.

(All phone numbers listed as for USA callers, if calling from another country use your country's international calling prefix instead of "011".)

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

The Book of Acts indicates that wherever many Christian -persecuting Jews lived and traveled, they created a counterfeit, contemptible image of Christ and Christianity.

You mean the image of a man-- demigod or not-- who bade sons and daughters forsake their families and railed against lawful religious authority? I hold great respect for Jesus Nazarene, but I can easily understand why the Jews of his era sought to crush him.

That he stood up to them and his cult survived two thousand years is a testament to his strength. To detract his persecutors is to detract from his glory.

Yet, the history of Christianity shows that systems of thought which are initially rejected because they are misrepresented can astonish the world with their growth and success.

Like Islam or the Church of Latter-Day Saints? Or does this only apply to system of thought that the Good Reverend himself agrees with?

"Holocaust denial" today is held in contempt by most media and mankind.

Rightfully so, as denying the evidence in front of one's own face is the behavior of lunatics and imbeciles. A faith that requires lunacy or feeblemindedness is a poor faith, indeed.

I specialize in free speech issues, not the Holocaust. Yet, seeing sincere inquirers like Germar Rudolph, Ernst Zundel, and now Dr. Toben pilloried and even possibly imprisoned for questioning "Holocaust reality," I am goaded to clear the air on their much misrepresented beliefs.

And it is on the principle of free speech that I believe that Doctor Toben should be merely ridiculed and humiliated, not imprisoned-- as ridicule is always the proper reply to the ridiculous.

 

[Stankbreath]

There's no proof that the Holocaust existed. Where's the evidence?


Prove me wrong.

 

[FireFly]

And it is on the principle of free speech that I believe that Doctor Toben should be merely ridiculed and humiliated, not imprisoned-- as ridicule is always the proper reply to the ridiculous.

Glad to see you come to this conclusion .
You agree that imprisonment is inappropriate.

 

[FireFly]

There's no proof that the Holocaust existed. Where's the evidence?


Prove me wrong.

Ever hear of Auschwitz? I have been there and seen it myself.

 

[Stankbreath]

Ever hear of Auschwitz? I have been there and seen it myself.

What is that, like a theme park?

 

[FireFly]

Toben's Arrest - New Assault
Against Free Speech
Why 'Holocaust Denial' Laws Are Dangerous
By Mark Weber
Institute for Historical Review
10-16-8


"Denial" laws criminalize even factual or truthful statements that "play down" the wartime treatment of Europe's Jews, thereby violating ancient and universal standards of justice. Justice applied selectively is not justice. It is a form of injustice Germany's effort to impose its peculiar limits on free speech outside its borders has potentially harmful consequences for Internet freedom of expression everywhere. Because the Toben case has such far-reaching implications, people in many countries will be closely watching how British authorities decide to handle Germany's extradition request.
------------------------------

On October 1, British police at London's Heathrow airport arrested Dr. Frederick Toben * an Australian citizen and a Holocaust revisionist * during a stop on a flight from the United States to Dubai. He was detained on the basis of a "European Arrest Warrant" issued by German authorities that accuses him of publishing material online "of an anti-semitic and/or revisionist nature."

Toben, a former schoolteacher who holds a doctorate in philosophy, has reportedly described the Holocaust as "a lie". His Australia-based "Adelaide Institute" website allegedly carries the transcript of an interview in which he says there is "no proof" that the Hitler regime systematically exterminated Jews.

He is being held in custody until a British court decides if he is to be extradited to Germany. A hearing is scheduled for Oct. 17. A German prosecutor says that if Toben is extradited, he could be sentenced to five years in prison. He would then join two German citizens, Ernst Zundel and Germar Rudolf, who are already serving prison terms for having violated Germany's "Holocaust denial" law.

In Germany it is crime to "deny, play down or justify" genocidal acts carried out by the Hitler regime. "Holocaust denial" is also a crime in France, Switzerland, Belgium,Austria, and several other European countries, as well as in Israel. Over the years many individuals have been fined, imprisoned or forced into exile for "denying the Holocaust," including Robert Faurisson and Roger Garaudy in France, Siegfried Verbeke in Belgium, Juergen Graf and Gaston-Armand Amaudruz in Switzerland, and Ernst Zundel, Germar Rudolf, Guenter Deckert and Hans Schmidt in Germany.

The Toben case has generated considerable media attention and much critical commentary. One of Britain's most influential daily papers, the Telegraph, sharply condemned the arrest as a "blatant attack on free speech." In an editorial headlined "Dr. Fredrick Toben's Arrest Should Alarm Us All," it cautioned that "the British legal system should have no part in this process." Chris Huhne, a British parliamentarian and home affairs spokesman of the Liberal Democratic party, noted that "Holocaust denial" is not a crime in Britain, and said that British courts should refuse to extradite Toben.

In most of the world, Europe's "denial" laws are regarded as peculiar and unjust. This was obvious after the November 2005 arrest in Austria of British historian David Irving. He was detained on the basis of an outstanding warrant for the "crime," committed 16 years earlier, of having expressed dissident views about the wartime treatment of Europe's Jews. After a sensational trial in Vienna, he was sentenced to three years imprisonment. (He was released after 13 months.)

Irving's ordeal prompted commentary in newspapers around the world * nearly all of it critical of the arrest and of the laws in a few European countries under which he, and many others, have been imprisoned, fined or forced into exile.

"Denial" laws criminalize even factual or truthful statements that "play down" the wartime treatment of Europe's Jews, thereby violating ancient and universal standards of justice

Justice applied selectively is not justice. It is a form of injustice. Because "denial" laws prohibit dissident views about only one chapter of history, they are inherently unfair. They inhibit historical inquiry and restrict free speech.

Free and open societies normally protect even offensive speech. That's why western countries defend the right of their citizens to "deny, play down or justify" crimes committed by the United States, Israel or the Soviet Union, or to publish offensively anti-Christian or anti-Muslim writings.

Across Europe authorities routinely punish those who say or write things that the Jewish community regards as offensive, but take no action against those who offend Christian or Muslim sensibilities. Thus, in Germany and several other countries, it's a criminal offense to say that Elie Wiesel is a liar or that the Anne Frank diary is a fraud, but perfectly legal to say that Jesus or Muhammad were liars.

"Holocaust denial" laws are the result of a well-organized, long-term Jewish campaign. In 1982, the Institute for Jewish Affairs in London, a London-based agency of the World Jewish Congress, announced that it was launching a worldwide campaign to persuade and pressure governments to outlaw "Holocaust denial." The anti-revisionist laws that were subsequently enacted in several European countries reflect the success of this initiative. Germany enacted its "Holocaust denial" statute in 1985 (amended in 1994), France in 1990, Austria in 1992, Belgium in 1995, and Slovakia in 2001. Underscoring the organized nature of this campaign, the International Association of Jewish Lawyers and Jurists in June 1998 called for new and more severe laws against "Holocaust denial."

Because Germany is trying to impose its "denial" statute beyond its own borders, the Toben case has dangerous implications for online freedom of expression everywhere. Everyone who cares about freedom of speech * even those who are outraged by Toben's views -- should be alarmed by Germany's high-handed attempt to censor the World Wide Web.

Toben's extradition to Germany would establish a dangerous precedent. Britain and other European Union countries would be obliged to turn over to Germany anyone in any EU state, including visitors from non-EU countries, who expresses dissident views on "the Holocaust" that are accessible on the Internet.

In the Zundel and Rudolf cases, German state prosecutors claimed the right to prosecute persons for Internet "denial" postings on websites in countries where such writings are legal. In the Toben case, German authorities are asserting the right to punish even non-citizens for such violations.

German authorities claim the right to prosecute anyone anywhere for expressing dissident views on "the Holocaust" that can be accessed online in Germany, even when such expressions of opinion are entirely legal in the country where they are posted, and regardless of the language in which they are written.

As some observers have pointed out, Germany is trying to "legislate for the entire world" by treating downloadable Internet material as a German publication. Nigel Farage, leader of the UK Independence Party, said that while his party in no way condones Toben's views, "not only has he not broken any UK laws, but in seeking to arrest him, Germany is claiming censorship rights to the entire Internet network."

The danger also exists that other countries, citing the German precedent, may similarly seek to punish persons outside their borders who post writings that violate their parochial notions of permissible speech and writing.

Turkey, for example, could demand the extradition and punishment of anyone in any European state who posts online writings that violate the country's law that makes it a crime to insult the Turkish nation. Pakistan or Saudi Arabia could demand the extradition and punishment of persons in Europe who post writings or images that insult Islam. China could demand the extradition and punishment of persons who call for the independence of Tibet, or who question the legitimacy of China's Communist Party.

It is difficult to believe that Germany would allow other countries to punish its citizens on the same basis that Germany insists on punishing anyone who violates its own "thought crime" law.

Germany's effort to impose its peculiar limits on free speech outside its borders has potentially harmful consequences for Internet freedom of expression everywhere. Because the Toben case has such far-reaching implications, people in many countries will be closely watching how British authorities decide to handle Germany's extradition request.

Toben's Arrest: A New Assault Against Free Speech

 

[Dawud]

The Holohoax is the largest fraud ever in the history of mankind.

It's just a cash cow for the Zionists of Israel.

The Holohoax Industury has swindled billions of dollars from gulible people and nations.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

There's no proof that the Holocaust existed. Where's the evidence?


Prove me wrong.

 

[UtahBill]

problem with trolls, they get by on so little food that one feeding lasts them for months.
holocaust deniers are without a doubt the laziest people on earth, and cheapest. If they really wanted proof, they would go to Europe and ask the citizens of towns near the death camps.....not many deniers there...

 

[partier9]

There's no proof that the Holocaust existed. Where's the evidence?


Prove me wrong.

My uncle lost almost his entire family to the Holocaust. The only family that he has left is a cousin out in California. There is plenty of evidence showing the holocaust happened, just type it in on Google.

 

[UtahBill]

There's no proof that the Holocaust existed. Where's the evidence?


Prove me wrong.

you are the one making the ridiculous claim, you prove the rest of us wrong...:2wave:

 

[Stankbreath]

you are the one making the ridiculous claim, you prove the rest of us wrong...:2wave:

I can prove my side of the argument by simply stating that it never existed. You don't need proof to prove that something didn't happen. You people are the ones who have something to prove, and so far, I've seen none.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

I can prove my side of the argument by simply stating that it never existed. You don't need proof to prove that something didn't happen. You people are the ones who have something to prove, and so far, I've seen none.

holocaust - Google Image Search

Turn off safe search and go wild

 

[Stankbreath]

holocaust - Google Image Search

Turn off safe search and go wild

That's all staged. Even you can admit there's some twisted fetish sites out there.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

That's all staged. Even you can admit there's some twisted fetish sites out there.

:roll:

You should visit the Flat Earth Society forums. They believe that all maps and all photographs of earth from space are faked by NASA, for reasons that aren't all that good considering the effort involved.

So if countless photographs from a half a century before photoshop, corroborated in extreme detail by thousands of eyewitness accounts don't count as proof what kind of "proof" are you looking for

 

[Stankbreath]

:roll:

You should visit the Flat Earth Society forums. They believe that all maps and all photographs of space from earth are faked by NASA, for reasons that aren't all that good considering the effort involved.

So if countless photographs from a half a century before photoshop, corroborated in extreme detail by thousands of eyewitness accounts don't count as proof what kind of "proof" are you looking for

Physical proof. Show me a holocaust right now. A live one, not a picture of one that died 40 years ago.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

Physical proof. Show me a holocaust right now. A live one, not a picture of one that died 40 years ago.

What the **** does that mean?

The Holocaust was a historical event......it did happen 40 years ago.....

If you're denying that the Holocaust is still going on, then I guess that makes me a Holocaust denier too

I was wondering what off the wall nonsensical response you were going to throw at me. I must say, you exceeded my expectations handily.

 

[Stankbreath]

What the **** does that mean?

The Holocaust was a historical event......it did happen 40 years ago.....

If you're denying that the Holocaust is still going on, then I guess that makes me a Holocaust denier too

I was wondering what off the wall nonsensical response you were going to throw at me. I must say, you exceeded my expectations handily.

I knew you'd come around to me.

But seriously, you're giving me history lessons that I've heard before. I'll PM you my address if you'd like. Then you can mail me physical proof of a Holocaust. Otherwise, please just admit that you lost, and stop causing trouble in my forum.

Jeez, your moderators are slow, huh? I figured they'd be all over me by now.

 

[UtahBill]

I can prove my side of the argument by simply stating that it never existed. You don't need proof to prove that something didn't happen. You people are the ones who have something to prove, and so far, I've seen none.

Using your twisted logic, all I have to do is state that you quit school at age 14, still hang out at the skateboard park with your skin head friends, still live with your parents, go to a red neck fundie snake handling church that meets in an old chicken coop, and have had several head injuries.
And you can't prove me wrong...:2wave:

 

[UtahBill]

I knew you'd come around to me.

But seriously, you're giving me history lessons that I've heard before. I'll PM you my address if you'd like. Then you can mail me physical proof of a Holocaust. Otherwise, please just admit that you lost, and stop causing trouble in my forum.

Jeez, your moderators are slow, huh? I figured they'd be all over me by now.

not slow, just enjoying the freak show for a bit....which are you, dog boy, bearded lady, or morphodite?

 

[Kernel Sanders]

I knew you'd come around to me.

But seriously, you're giving me history lessons that I've heard before. I'll PM you my address if you'd like. Then you can mail me physical proof of a Holocaust. Otherwise, please just admit that you lost, and stop causing trouble in my forum.

If you want to see physical proof there are many Holocaust museums you can visit that have many artifacts. Many of the concentration camps are also open to people who wish to learn about the Holocaust. I'm sorry that I don't have any historical artifacts lying around to mail you, but they are out there. Ya just hafta show a little initiative and look for yourself.

Jeez, your moderators are slow, huh? I figured they'd be all over me by now.

While I'm flattered that you think I have my very own moderators, sadly I do not. And Holocaust denial isn't against forum rules, it's just that the deniers tend to degenerate into spewing racist rhetoric because they can't defend their ridiculous views.

 

[Kernel Sanders]

Still waiting for an explanation of what you mean by a "live Holocaust" btw

 

[UtahBill]

Still waiting for an explanation of what you mean by a "live Holocaust" btw

the nearest thing to a live holocaust that I can think of is an education system that allows kids to quit school before they have learned to breathe through their noses....
I actually heard one of them say, "Why do I have to study math and english, and history? I don't know anything about those subjects".
If only I could have recorded it and played it back to her until she realized what she said......

 

[Real Korimyr #9]

Jeez, your moderators are slow, huh? I figured they'd be all over me by now.

Moderator's Warning:

The reason that the moderators aren't all over you is that Holocaust denial, no matter how devoid of any historical or intellectual merit, is not against the forum rules.