First F-35s downed

[Hamish Howl]

And once again, simply visually. One advantage that Iran has over many nations like the US is that they still maintain and operate air defense guns. Weapons like the ZU-23 and similar guns have an advantage against stealth because they do not have to rely on RADAR. They are 23mm guns, and can be aimed and operated manually based on visual identification and tracking. Where once again stealth is of absolutely no value at all.

How's that been working out so far?

 

[Oozlefinch]

How's that been working out so far?

Excuse me, what in the hell are you even trying to say? That was almost completely nonsensical.

 

[gman]

Excuse me, what in the hell are you even trying to say? That was almost completely nonsensical.

The F-35 is not a close air support weapon like the A-10 Warthog was. The ZSU-23 max range distance is 5km horizontal, 2.5 km slanted, 1.5 km vertical. I don’t believe you’ll see F-35 flying that low.

 

[ASHES]

Still no confirmed air losses for Israel I've seen. Not even a drone which are flying openly over Tehran in the daytime.

 

[Oozlefinch]

The F-35 is not a close air support weapon like the A-10 Warthog was.

Of course not, all three versions are multi-role fighters and not attack aircraft.

But of the three the B version is the one that would most likely be employed in that capability. And as such, the ZSU would not be a major threat along the FEBA, as that is a rather heavy beast to be moving around. There, the main threat would actually be MANPADs and other portable missile systems like the PANTSIR (SA-22 Greyhound).

 

[braindrain]

Why people think things like this, I have no idea. Stealth does not mean "Invisible". It never has, it never will.

And detecting it is nothing special. Iraq was able to do it in the 1980s with mostly 1950's era equipment, and the Serbians did it and shot down an F-117 three decades ago with 1950's era technology. And I have seen it done first hand with 1980s era technology.

Now here is the real reason why stealth is important. For RADAR tracking weapons, reducing the RADAR cross section is key, because the weapons require a minimum return in order to lock on and track the target. Not enough of a return, either the weapon will refuse to lock on (and therefore refuse to fire), or it can lose the target and go into an "auto-seek" mode or simply self destruct. And there are many ways to completely eliminate the capabilities of stealth altogether.

The first and most obvious is by tracking a target visually. This is what was done in 1990-1991 in Iraq, and what would be done if another fighter got close enough to engage with their guns. At that point, all the "stealth" in the world means absolutely nothing. After all, that is only effective against RADAR, not the Mark I eyeball. And as part of STEALTH and other modern aircraft they do have a reduced heat signature, but once again not invisible to heat. So get close enough and a heat seeking weapon can still track and shoot them down.

And there are even differing "levels" of Stealth. When it comes to the US, the best is still considered to be the F-117 ("Hopeless Diamond"). From what I have read, that still has the lowest RADAR cross-section of any stealth aircraft the US has made. But that was also offset by the small and limited weapon payload so it was ultimately retired. Second is the B-2. Still in service, but of limited use in many conflicts because it is a strategic bomber and not a fighter. After that is the F-22. An air superiority fighter, and the most stealthy in use today.

And notice, all of those are "US Only" aircraft. None of the three (even the retired F-117) has ever been exported to another country.

Then at the bottom of that list, the F-35. This is a series of three models of multi-role fighters. And as such there are a great many compromises in the design. As multi-role they perform both air to air and air to ground. It does not excel at either one like a dedicated fighter, but it is a good compromise that can do both. And people tend to forget that there are three different models, each specialized for their role.

Now Israel uses an export version of the F-35A. This is the "Air Force" version, so takes off and lands like a conventional fighter. And in general, is essentially a "More Stealthy" F-16. More stealthy than other multi-role fighters, but not as stealthy as an F-22 or F-117. There is also the F-35B that the Marines use. Far more capable than the AV-8 it replaces, miles above the Soviet Yak-38. Then the F-35C, the CATOBAR replacement for the F-18. And largely sharing the same capabilities of the F-18, but more stealthy. And far and away superior to the Su-33 and related fighters.

But Iran has always had a formidable air defense system. Not only do they import some of the best that Russia sells, but they have also developed their own (based largely on US made systems they owned during their revolution). And there is nothing that makes "stealth aircraft" immune from detection or tracking, it all depends on how they are operated and where those defenses are. That is why Serbia was able to do it with long obsolete technology.

Pretty sure that both the B2 and the F22 have lower Radar cross sections then the 117.
And everything I could find with a quick 10 minute Google search seem to confirm that. Do you have anything showing otherwise?
Would be interested in seeing that.

 

[GIJane]

Why? They're attacking another nation. Iran has a right to self-defence.

And Israel doesn't?

 

[mike2810]

I was told that F-35s were supposed to be stealth fighters. There goes another multi-billion-dollar promise down the drain.

And WTF were those F-35s doing in Iran airspace? GTFO.

Isreal has F35's.

 

[Hamish Howl]

Excuse me, what in the hell are you even trying to say? That was almost completely nonsensical.

No F35s have been shot down.

Did you see the ridiculous "evidence" the Iranians offered?

 

[Hamish Howl]

I was told that F-35s were supposed to be stealth fighters. There goes another multi-billion-dollar promise down the drain.

No F35s have been shot down.

And WTF were those F-35s doing in Iran airspace? GTFO.

Being flown by Israeli pilots.

 

[Oozlefinch]

No F35s have been shot down.

Yes, and?

That has nothing to do with what I said, so I am not sure why you are even bringing it up. The fact is, all stealth aircraft are still vulnerable to optically tracked and operated weapons.

Big freaking clue here, there is a damned good reason why they until this newest generation they are always operated at night. Iraqi air defenses were able to see them flying towards Baghdad and knew by the RADAR they were the new F-117. As such they absolutely lit up the skies with every ground based gun they had, but did not fire missiles.



Because they knew that the missiles would either refuse to fire, or be absolutely useless. But at least with gunfire there was a chance they could be hit. But they were all firing blind, they were unable to see the jet black aircraft at night.

Now use an F-117, B-2, F-22 or F-35A/B/C in the daytime, and one can expect there is a much higher chance of them being shot down. Because they can track and target them visually, and not relying on blind luck. Because unlike other air defense systems, the ZSU and other gun based systems actually can be fired 100% manually and do not require a RADAR lock to be used.

 

[Oozlefinch]

And WTF were those F-35s doing in Iran airspace? GTFO.

Israel has had the F-35 for almost 8 years now, their first squadron becoming operational back in 2017. They operate a specialized version of the F-35A that was made for them known as the F-35I "Adir". It was modified by and for Israel for their own needs. Including their own ECM pods, and adaptations for their own Israeli made missiles.

Oh, and there is yet another variant of the F-35A that is rumored to be in development. Israel still has a love of two seat fighters, and has been working with Lockheed-Martin to develop another version with that capability.

 

[Roadvirus]

Have the Iranians claimed to have shot down any B-2s yet?

 

[ColdHardTruth]

I'm thinking Iran is full of shit.

Agreed.