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First F-35s downed

phoenix2020

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Skimming through links I noticed this,


The punchline is that yesterday Iran became the first nation to shoot down a F-35 and they did it not once but twice. I don't think of Iran as being at the vanguard of stealth detection technologies (but maybe I'm wrong?) so I'm surprised by this result. Is this the first time a 5th generation fighter has been downed in combat?
 
Another link:


This one claims three downed jets and pilots captured, but also references the absence of clear evidence and the IDF calling it a fabrication, so it's anyone's guess whether they actually shot down F-35s. I imagine we'll find out soon enough.
 
Skimming through links I noticed this,


The punchline is that yesterday Iran became the first nation to shoot down a F-35 and they did it not once but twice. I don't think of Iran as being at the vanguard of stealth detection technologies (but maybe I'm wrong?) so I'm surprised by this result. Is this the first time a 5th generation fighter has been downed in combat?

I was told that F-35s were supposed to be stealth fighters. There goes another multi-billion-dollar promise down the drain.

And WTF were those F-35s doing in Iran airspace? GTFO.
 
Skimming through links I noticed this,


The punchline is that yesterday Iran became the first nation to shoot down a F-35 and they did it not once but twice. I don't think of Iran as being at the vanguard of stealth detection technologies (but maybe I'm wrong?) so I'm surprised by this result. Is this the first time a 5th generation fighter has been downed in combat?
It should be noted that the only support for this comes from Iran itself.

Healthy skepticism is warranted, especially when the pictures released by Iran of the aircraft are prety clearly not the remains of a Lightning II:

1749936205831.webp

 
Another link:


This one claims three downed jets and pilots captured, but also references the absence of clear evidence and the IDF calling it a fabrication, so it's anyone's guess whether they actually shot down F-35s. I imagine we'll find out soon enough.
Below is an interesting snippet from the linked article you provided.


Iran’s claims: Third jet downed, pilots captured​

According to semi-official outlets IRNA and Press TV, Iranian air defences brought down a third Israeli F-35 stealth fighter in the early hours of Saturday. One pilot is reported to have died; another has allegedly been captured alive after ejecting. Iran has not released any visual proof, and military bloggers have questioned the authenticity of circulating images that purport to show the wreckage. The Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) have di ..

Read more at:
https://economictimes.indiatimes.co...ofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst
 
F-35 being stealthy are sent into the most dangerous missions. And don't under estimate current state of the art Chinese and Russia air defense products. But we have to wait and see if this is legit.
 
The fact that an aircraft is considered "stealth" does not mean that it was flown in a stealthy manner. You can certainly put your aircraft front and center on anybody's radar if you fly imprudently. You can also be too close to surface-to-air missile batteries, and too late in deployment of countermeasures under fire.

One would hope that if F-35s were indeed shot down, they would have only been on a targeting run of the most secure airspace in Iran, which is what one would surmise by their use anyway.
 
Skimming through links I noticed this,


The punchline is that yesterday Iran became the first nation to shoot down a F-35 and they did it not once but twice. I don't think of Iran as being at the vanguard of stealth detection technologies (but maybe I'm wrong?) so I'm surprised by this result. Is this the first time a 5th generation fighter has been downed in combat?

In the age of click bait and sensationalist tabloid "stories", I suggest you pay closer attention to the sources and develop your own list of fake news providers.

There are sites that routinely published sensationalized stories on behalf of Ukraine, just as there are those that are propaganda conduits for Russia or anti-western "stories". I've spent the last few years spotting them and your source is one.

One tipoff is the name of the author (never heard of him, if he is real), and another is that the source is apparently Indian or Muslim. Indian sources are particularly bad about truth telling, IndiaOne often inventing whole fictions.

So, until we have credible proof from a credible source, it should be treated as bunk.
 
It's always going to be easier to detect something than it is to hide it.
Radar has been in use for a century and is pretty good these days.
 
In the age of click bait and sensationalist tabloid "stories", I suggest you pay closer attention to the sources and develop your own list of fake news providers.

There are sites that routinely published sensationalized stories on behalf of Ukraine, just as there are those that are propaganda conduits for Russia or anti-western "stories". I've spent the last few years spotting them and your source is one.

One tipoff is the name of the author (never heard of him, if he is real), and another is that the source is apparently Indian or Muslim. Indian sources are particularly bad about truth telling, IndiaOne often inventing whole fictions.

So, until we have credible proof from a credible source, it should be treated as bunk.
See post #3.
 
Did about 30 minutes of digging not just with US media but into foreign sources and I can find no clear evidence to back Iran's claim that they downed a F-35 much less multiple aircraft much less captured pilots. I'll give it another day or two but if they had managed to accomplish either of these things, I would expect clear evidence released to the world within 24-48 hours, so this may be a hoax/fabrication on Iran's part.

(Apologies if I wasted anybody's time!)
 
Israel is the only country that has openly used the F-35 in combat. The US has indeed used the F-35 in certain operations in the Middle East, for example against ISIS, but in low-threat environments with limited air defense.
 
Stealth does not mean undetectable

Infrared, long band radar or being close enough for short band will all detect Stealth aircraft.


Using dual band radar with short and long wavelengths to detect stealth aircraft using the long wavelength and then when the missile is close enough using short band to " lock " on to the stealth aircraft while complicated will work.
 
1750000493806.webp

Left aircraft supposedly shot down by Iran. On the right, an F-35I from the IAF.

#1 Red Arrow, look at the shape of the cockpit. On the left its straight across the bottom, on the right it shows a dip for better pilot visibility looking at lower altitudes.

#2 The body on the left has a much more rounded fuselage than an F-35I where the body blends into the wing structure.

#3 There are no intakes beginning near the cockpit blending back, but yet the fuselage is painted where the intakes would be. If the intakes "fell off" they would be painted, you'd see internal structure.

#4 Look at the engine placement in regards to the vertical stabilizer. On the left the engine is directly below the attachment point, however on the F-35I the engine exhaust is offset toward center. The engine isn't directly below the stab.

#5 Look at the very edges of the exhaust. On the left they are smooth, however on the F-35I there is a triangle/pointed pattern.
.
.
.
.
.
All-in-all, I'm not buying that the crash on the left (purported to be an F-35I) is in fact an F-35I. Iran will have to supply other evidence for their claim to be believable. (I doubt Israel will say anything in the near future.)


WW
 
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Skimming through links I noticed this,


The punchline is that yesterday Iran became the first nation to shoot down a F-35 and they did it not once but twice. I don't think of Iran as being at the vanguard of stealth detection technologies (but maybe I'm wrong?) so I'm surprised by this result. Is this the first time a 5th generation fighter has been downed in combat?

Why people think things like this, I have no idea. Stealth does not mean "Invisible". It never has, it never will.

And detecting it is nothing special. Iraq was able to do it in the 1980s with mostly 1950's era equipment, and the Serbians did it and shot down an F-117 three decades ago with 1950's era technology. And I have seen it done first hand with 1980s era technology.

Now here is the real reason why stealth is important. For RADAR tracking weapons, reducing the RADAR cross section is key, because the weapons require a minimum return in order to lock on and track the target. Not enough of a return, either the weapon will refuse to lock on (and therefore refuse to fire), or it can lose the target and go into an "auto-seek" mode or simply self destruct. And there are many ways to completely eliminate the capabilities of stealth altogether.

The first and most obvious is by tracking a target visually. This is what was done in 1990-1991 in Iraq, and what would be done if another fighter got close enough to engage with their guns. At that point, all the "stealth" in the world means absolutely nothing. After all, that is only effective against RADAR, not the Mark I eyeball. And as part of STEALTH and other modern aircraft they do have a reduced heat signature, but once again not invisible to heat. So get close enough and a heat seeking weapon can still track and shoot them down.

And there are even differing "levels" of Stealth. When it comes to the US, the best is still considered to be the F-117 ("Hopeless Diamond"). From what I have read, that still has the lowest RADAR cross-section of any stealth aircraft the US has made. But that was also offset by the small and limited weapon payload so it was ultimately retired. Second is the B-2. Still in service, but of limited use in many conflicts because it is a strategic bomber and not a fighter. After that is the F-22. An air superiority fighter, and the most stealthy in use today.

And notice, all of those are "US Only" aircraft. None of the three (even the retired F-117) has ever been exported to another country.

Then at the bottom of that list, the F-35. This is a series of three models of multi-role fighters. And as such there are a great many compromises in the design. As multi-role they perform both air to air and air to ground. It does not excel at either one like a dedicated fighter, but it is a good compromise that can do both. And people tend to forget that there are three different models, each specialized for their role.

Now Israel uses an export version of the F-35A. This is the "Air Force" version, so takes off and lands like a conventional fighter. And in general, is essentially a "More Stealthy" F-16. More stealthy than other multi-role fighters, but not as stealthy as an F-22 or F-117. There is also the F-35B that the Marines use. Far more capable than the AV-8 it replaces, miles above the Soviet Yak-38. Then the F-35C, the CATOBAR replacement for the F-18. And largely sharing the same capabilities of the F-18, but more stealthy. And far and away superior to the Su-33 and related fighters.

But Iran has always had a formidable air defense system. Not only do they import some of the best that Russia sells, but they have also developed their own (based largely on US made systems they owned during their revolution). And there is nothing that makes "stealth aircraft" immune from detection or tracking, it all depends on how they are operated and where those defenses are. That is why Serbia was able to do it with long obsolete technology.
 
Skimming through links I noticed this,


The punchline is that yesterday Iran became the first nation to shoot down a F-35 and they did it not once but twice. I don't think of Iran as being at the vanguard of stealth detection technologies (but maybe I'm wrong?) so I'm surprised by this result. Is this the first time a 5th generation fighter has been downed in combat?
Go to your link and look at the original source.

This was debunked yesterday.
 
Another link:


This one claims three downed jets and pilots captured, but also references the absence of clear evidence and the IDF calling it a fabrication, so it's anyone's guess whether they actually shot down F-35s. I imagine we'll find out soon enough.
India Times isn't much better.
 
View attachment 67574787

Left aircraft supposedly shot down by Iran. On the right, an F-35I from the IAF.

#1 Red Arrow, look at the shape of the cockpit. On the left its straight across the bottom, on the right it shows a dip for better pilot visibility looking at lower altitudes.

#2 The body on the left has a much more rounded fuselage than an F-35I where the body blends into the wing structure.

#3 There are no intakes beginning near the cockpit blending back, but yet the fuselage is painted where the intakes would be. If the intakes "fell off" they would be painted, you'd see internal structure.

#4 Look at the engine placement in regards to the vertical stabilizer. On the left the engine is directly below the attachment point, however on the F-35I the engine exhaust is offset toward center. The engine isn't directly below the stab.

#5 Look at the very edges of the exhaust. On the left they are smooth, however on the F-35I there is a triangle/pointed pattern.
.
.
.
.
.
All-in-all, I'm not buying that the crash on the left (purported to be an F-35I) is in fact an F-35I. Iran will have to supply other evidence for their claim to be believable. (I doubt Israel will say anything in the near future.)


WW
There it is.
 
Infrared, long band radar or being close enough for short band will all detect Stealth aircraft.

There have also been other technologies considered in the past, ones that most consider to be long obsolete.

Audio.

Before and during WWII and before they rose to dominance in early RADAR technology, England was actually a world leader in the field of acquiring and tracking inbound aircraft through audio detection.



And during the Cold War, the Soviets were doing the same thing. When the B-1 was unveiled and the fact it had a reduced RADAR cross section and could fly low to the ground, they started to put audio detection systems along their borders to detect if one entered their airspace.

And once again, simply visually. One advantage that Iran has over many nations like the US is that they still maintain and operate air defense guns. Weapons like the ZU-23 and similar guns have an advantage against stealth because they do not have to rely on RADAR. They are 23mm guns, and can be aimed and operated manually based on visual identification and tracking. Where once again stealth is of absolutely no value at all. And a reason why after decades of being "missile only", the US is once again considering a modern replacement for the retired M163 VADS and the never fielded M237 Sergeant York. Because more nations are making stealth fighters, and unlike them and other nations the US actually has no gun based systems to counter them.

A very good example of where "newer technology" is actually less effective than older technology.
 
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