Feces and the Garden of Eden

[bythoughts]

In Genesis, a number of curses were described with the Fall of Man. None of them involved a sudden need to defecate, or the addition of organ systems and orifices to the body. Adam and Eve both ate of the fruit trees, and, one might presume, therefore had a need to defecate.

But before the Fall, they knew nothing of Good or Evil. They lived in bliss, without suffering. Without tripping over during a dance move and getting a snootful of something they didn't know to dig a latrine to deal with. (How often did it rain in the Garden anyway? Did they have rainy days?)

The AI dealt with this by saying that the poop didn't stink. No bacteria, no corruption. It cited Saint Thomas Aquinas but, because they're trying to start pushing people onto a pro tier, they only linked to bloggers like this guy.

To my mind that raises other questions. I mean, if Adam and Eve were really pooping peach jam with a pleasant odor and texture, were they sitting around eating each other's excrement? They wouldn't have been ashamed to, after all.

Now I could go further afield with doctrine... "Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil." Does that really mean that Adam and Eve became aware when an action was bad, so that beforehand Adam could have bashed Eve in the head with a stick and not felt anything about it? Or does it mean that they became capable of doing the wrong thing, and therefore "knowing" (participating in) both good and evil? Now if that were the case, then pre-Fall, feces could have stunk, bacteria could already have existed, but it was always - always - dealt with in a responsible way, because the humans couldn't sin. Even babies, if born in that state, might have gotten up to relieve themselves responsibly, even if they didn't know why or have a word for the facilities they used, or else the parents would have known always in advance how to deal with their needs in a timely way. But since the original sin happened, that implies some kind of special exception for it, possibly due to Satan being an angel?

 

[Slartibartfast]

Never thought about it and I probably never will again once my attention passes to something else besides this thread.

 

[phoenix2020]

In Genesis, a number of curses were described with the Fall of Man. None of them involved a sudden need to defecate, or the addition of organ systems and orifices to the body. Adam and Eve both ate of the fruit trees, and, one might presume, therefore had a need to defecate.

But before the Fall, they knew nothing of Good or Evil. They lived in bliss, without suffering. Without tripping over during a dance move and getting a snootful of something they didn't know to dig a latrine to deal with. (How often did it rain in the Garden anyway? Did they have rainy days?)

The AI dealt with this by saying that the poop didn't stink. No bacteria, no corruption. It cited Saint Thomas Aquinas but, because they're trying to start pushing people onto a pro tier, they only linked to bloggers like this guy.

To my mind that raises other questions. I mean, if Adam and Eve were really pooping peach jam with a pleasant odor and texture, were they sitting around eating each other's excrement? They wouldn't have been ashamed to, after all.

Now I could go further afield with doctrine... "Behold, the man has become like one of us, to know good and evil." Does that really mean that Adam and Eve became aware when an action was bad, so that beforehand Adam could have bashed Eve in the head with a stick and not felt anything about it? Or does it mean that they became capable of doing the wrong thing, and therefore "knowing" (participating in) both good and evil? Now if that were the case, then pre-Fall, feces could have stunk, bacteria could already have existed, but it was always - always - dealt with in a responsible way, because the humans couldn't sin. Even babies, if born in that state, might have gotten up to relieve themselves responsibly, even if they didn't know why or have a word for the facilities they used, or else the parents would have known always in advance how to deal with their needs in a timely way. But since the original sin happened, that implies some kind of special exception for it, possibly due to Satan being an angel?

Hopefully it didn’t devolve into a human centipede sort of thing. I get that Christianity goes to some dark places (for example God forcing Noah’s children into group incest) but you’re exploring something rather… unsettling.

 

[Chock Full o Nuts]

So are we saying Adam and Eve thought their shit didn't stink?

 

[Bok Tuklo]

That’s why all dogs go to Heaven. All animals, really. They aren’t fallen like Man. They live in that perpetual state of blessed ignorance.


Except for dolphins. Those assholes know what’s up.

And cephalopods seem a bit aware, too. I’ve got my eye on them.

 

[Metanoia]

They ate of the concept of good and evil. Once again literalists will struggle with this…..

 

[phoenix2020]

They ate of the concept of good and evil. Once again literalists will struggle with this…..

Were they vegetarians?

 

[bythoughts]

They ate of the concept of good and evil. Once again literalists will struggle with this…..

The account may be an analogy -- but if so, shouldn't we pursue what that analogy means, to see what can be learned of it? I'm not sure I trust your interpretation otherwise: as I ended with my first post, did they eat of the concept of good and evil, or of the ability to do good and evil? Now of course, that notion of God being able to do evil is disturbing and out of keeping of how we usually think. And who is "us"? Is it a royal us? Is it referring to angels able to do both good and evil, like Satan?

There is an odd verse supporting that notion, Exodus 32:14, "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people", though some say "repented" there doesn't mean what we think it means. But if the word has an archaic meaning there, then are we using the word right anywhere?

Feces may be unpleasant, or seem comic, but it has a particular knack for moral discernment. It marks the child's journey to adult-like planning. It tests the parent's commitment and endurance. The essence of civilization is not pyramids or temples or trade ships, but sewers, which make cities survivable. Perhaps each day we should hope to eat forgiveness in all directions and defecate the evil that builds up inside us.

 

[Metanoia]

For the literalists…..maybe it was a persimmon tree…..a green one is evil…..a ripe one is sweet……

 

[Metanoia]

There is an odd verse supporting that notion, Exodus 32:14, "And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people", though some say "repented" there doesn't mean what we think it means. But if the word has an archaic meaning there, then are we using the word right anywhere?

In the OT God repents 13 times……think about that……we know why repentance is called for……the one thing I wonder is who/what could offer forgiveness……sure our forum experts will know…..

 

[Daisy]

A different perspective regarding Exodus 32:14...

Consider what we can learn from the interchange recorded at Exodus 32:11-14. Although not needing Moses’ input, Jehovah gave Moses an opportunity to reveal how he felt. What human would listen at length to the reasoning of someone who has displayed faulty thinking and then act on that person’s word? Yet, Jehovah listens patiently to humans who call on him in faith.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2018561#h=25:234-25:609

 

[Metanoia]

Jehovah clearly a sinner and no way to get around that. Jesus, on the other hand, without sin but secondary to God ? We have a problem……

 

[Daisy]

All of Jehovah’s activities are perfect in that He expresses his attributes of justice, wisdom, love, and power in perfect balance....

"The Rock, perfect is his activity,+
For all his ways are justice.+
A God of faithfulness+ who is never unjust;+
Righteous and upright is he.+" Deuteronomy 32:4

REPENTANCE​

The verb “repent” means “change one’s mind with regard to past (or intended) action, or conduct, on account of regret or dissatisfaction,” or “feel regret, contrition, or compunction, for what one has done or omitted to do.” In many texts this is the thought of the Hebrew na·chamʹ. Na·chamʹ can mean “feel regret, keep a period of mourning, repent” (Ex 13:17; Ge 38:12; Job 42:6), as well as “comfort oneself” (2Sa 13:39; Eze 5:13), “relieve oneself (as of one’s enemies).” (Isa 1:24) Whether regret or comfort, it can be seen that a change of mind or feeling is involved.

How can God, who is perfect, “feel regret”?

In the majority of cases where the Hebrew na·chamʹ is used in the sense of “feeling regret,” the reference is to Jehovah God. Genesis 6:6, 7 states that “Jehovah felt regrets that he had made men in the earth, and he felt hurt at his heart,” their wickedness being so great that God determined he would wipe them off the surface of the ground by means of the global Flood. This cannot mean that God felt regret in the sense of having made a mistake in his work of creation, for “perfect is his activity.” (De 32:4, 5) Regret is the opposite of pleasurable satisfaction and rejoicing. Hence, it must be that God regretted that after he had created mankind, their conduct became so evil that he now found himself obliged (and justly so) to destroy all mankind with the exception of Noah and his family. For God ‘takes no delight in the death of the wicked.’—Eze 33:11.

M’Clintock and Strong’s Cyclopædia comments: “God himself is said to repent [na·chamʹ, feel regret]; but this can only be understood of his altering his conduct towards his creatures, either in the bestowing of good or infliction of evil—which change in the divine conduct is founded on a change in his creatures; and thus, speaking after the manner of men, God is said to repent.” (1894, Vol. VIII, p. 1042)

God’s righteous standards remain constant, stable, unchanging, free from fluctuation. (Mal 3:6; Jas 1:17) No circumstance can cause him to change his mind about these, to turn from them, or to abandon them. However, the attitude and reactions of his intelligent creatures toward those perfect standards and toward God’s application of them can be good or bad. If good, this is pleasing to God; if bad, it causes regret.

Moreover, the creature’s attitude can change from good to bad or bad to good, and since God does not change his standards to accommodate them, his pleasure (and accompanying blessings) can accordingly change to regret (and accompanying discipline or punishment) or vice versa. His judgments and decisions, then, are totally free from caprice, fickleness, unreliability, or error; hence he is free from all erratic or eccentric conduct.—Eze 18:21-30; 33:7-20.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003691

 

[Metanoia]

All of Jehovah’s activities are perfect in that He expresses his attributes of justice, wisdom, love, and power in perfect balance....



How can God, who is perfect, “feel regret”?

Perfect at times until repentance becomes necessary…..on the bright side it supports the assertion that we are made in the image of God….this vulnerability to sin…..

 

[Logician Man]

Jehovah clearly a sinner and no way to get around that. Jesus, on the other hand, without sin but secondary to God ? We have a problem……

 

[Daisy]

Meaning of Genesis 1:26​

Humans were created in God’s image, with the ability to cultivate and manifest qualities that God possesses, such as love, empathy, and justice. That explains why humans can actually imitate God’s personality.

“God said: ‘Let us make man in our image.’” Before Jehovah Goda made anyone or anything else, he created a powerful spirit being who later became known as Jesus. By means of Jesus, “all other things were created in the heavens and on the earth.” (Colossians 1:16) Jesus reflects Jehovah’s personality—“he is the image of the invisible God.” (Colossians 1:15) Fittingly, then, God could say to Jesus: “Let us make man in our image.”

“Let them have in subjection . . . the domestic animals and all the earth.” Animals were not created in God’s image. They were not designed to display distinctive human characteristics such as love or to possess a conscience. Still, God cares about the welfare of his animal creatures. That is why he declared that humans were to have the animals “in subjection,” a declaration that can also be rendered “rule over” (New International Version) or “take charge of” (Common English Bible). Jehovah was thus entrusting humans with the responsibility to care for the animals. (Psalm 8:6-8; Proverbs 12:10) Jehovah expects mankind to be good stewards of the earth and all living things on it.

Context of Genesis 1:26​

The opening two chapters of Genesis give an overview of the creation of the universe, our planet, and life on earth. Everything Jehovah created is masterful, but humans are his most remarkable earthly creation. When God finished his creative works, he “saw everything he had made, and look! it was very good.”—Genesis 1:31.

Misconception: God has physical features similar to ours.

Fact: “God is a Spirit”—that is, he exists outside the physical realm. (John 4:24) Although the Bible sometimes refers to his face, hands, heart, and so forth, these are word pictures that teach us about God in terms humans can understand.—Exodus 15:6; 1 Peter 3:12.
Misconception: Genesis 1:26 proves that Jesus is God.

Fact: God and Jesus have a close father-and-son relationship, but they are not the same person. Jesus taught that God is superior to him. (John 14:28) For more information, watch the video Is Jesus Christ God? or read the article “Why Is Jesus Called the Son of God?”
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/502300129

 

[Gordy327]

Jehovah clearly a sinner and no way to get around that. Jesus, on the other hand, without sin but secondary to God ? We have a problem……

Indeed, a problem with logic.

 

[Daisy]

“The answer is logic. Or, to put it another way, the ability to reason analytically. Applied properly, it can overcome any lack of wisdom, which one only gains through age and experience.” - Christopher Paolini

 

[Logician Man]

< Animals were not created in God’s image. >​

​

Hmmm. We have another problem.

Humans are Animals - Fact or Myth?​

Are Humans Really a Type of Animal?​

Humans are animals. Humans have unique traits regarding morality and language, but biologically humans are a type of animal known as a mammal.

FACT: In simple terms: When we say humans are animals we mean we aren’t plants or algae. When we say humans are mammals we mean we aren’t reptiles, birds, or insects.

What Do We Mean By Animals?​

Scientists classify life in a few different ways, putting aside simple and single celled organisms like bacteria, one simple way to classify all life forms as animal, plant, fungi, or algae (red and green).

 

[Revelation]

Daisy said:

<Animals were not created in God's image​

True, only Adam and Eve and us people are created in God's image.

People are not animals. only animals are animals to put it simply.

Real simple Theology 101, we are above the Animal kingdom. we will live someplace forever, make sure it is with God my friends.


Apologetics Press

https://apologeticspress.org › humans-are-not-animals-5678

Humans are Not Animals - Apologetics Press​

Animals can also be used for clothing (Genesis 3:21). If the Bible is, in fact, the inspired Word of God, then animals are not humans. Fourth, in those characteristics where animals are superior to humans, the reason is not due to evolution, nor does such superiority imply a ........


blessings all, 50 days to go and then..........


.

 

[Metanoia]

“The answer is logic. Or, to put it another way, the ability to reason analytically. Applied properly, it can overcome any lack of wisdom, which one only gains through age and experience.” - Christopher Paolini

From a Biblical perspective that is not true. The wisdom of men is foolishness to God. Spirit overrides intelligence, logic and reason…..even though some believe that being able to correctly identify a giraffe is proof of intelligence……..

 

[Daisy]

From a Biblical perspective that is not true. The wisdom of men is foolishness to God. Spirit overrides intelligence, logic and reason…..even though some believe that being able to correctly identify a giraffe is proof of intelligence……..

But logic/reasoning on the Scriptures can overcome any wisdom of men...

 

[Metanoia]

But logic/reasoning on the Scriptures can overcome any wisdom of men...

Logic/reason is helpful if it is built on the right premise. The premise of fundamentalists is that every word and sentence of the Bible is literally true. Allegory, symbolism and metaphor is neither perceived or taken into account. So people like me come along and speak of the 6,000 year timeframe of the Bible and the necessity of Jehovah to repent etc. It is a challenge to what everyone accepts and understands reasoning and logic to be built on. Why even speak of logic and reasoning if you profess to know all the truth ? Essentially no debate, no explanation…….just the expectation that everyone must accept your understanding…….

 

[Daisy]

Logic/reason is helpful if it is built on the right premise. The premise of fundamentalists is that every word and sentence of the Bible is literally true. Allegory, symbolism and metaphor is neither perceived or taken into account. So people like me come along and speak of the 6,000 year timeframe of the Bible and the necessity of Jehovah to repent etc. It is a challenge to what everyone accepts and understands reasoning and logic to be built on. Why even speak of logic and reasoning if you profess to know all the truth ? Essentially no debate, no explanation…….just the expectation that everyone must accept your understanding…….

Sounds familiar...

 

[GIJane]

But logic/reasoning on the Scriptures can overcome any wisdom of men...

There is no logic or reasoning as the Bible is based on Faith, not intellectual reasoning. Why do you think many scientists are atheists?