Ikari said:
No. In fact, random vacuum fluctuations explain a great many of measured phenominon including Lamb shifts, zero point energy, etc. They are predicted through quantum mechanics and general relativity. To measure the effects of random vacuum fluctuations took precision experiments, the equipment for which wasn't around in full glory till well after the theory saying these things were possible came out. In fact, at first it was "allowable" but no one said they happened. They are allowed through brief periods of breaking energy conservation, or rather better though of as deriving their energy from the curvature of space. It was said this was allowed, it was said well if this is allowed it will have these affects. When those affects were measured, there was then proof of the dynamic.
Again, you're asking me to choose between believing in you, a man with a obvious agenda and clear bias, or scientists...impartial and experts in fields well unknown by you. Sorry, but you're going to lose that one every time.
I am not asking you to choose between. I asked you as an impartial expert to reply to my objections. I am not doing physics, but I am wondering what physics is doing now days. Instead you have ignored my objections and just have repeated your previous statement in other words plus more verbosity and ambiguity, proving only that you are no expert and no impartial. [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_verbosity]Proof by intimidation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
And please, please, can you have some mercy - the curvature of space is a geometrical concept, you cannot derive any physical energy from it, - I mean any child knows that.
"If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull."
Identifying pseudoscience: 4. Use of obscurantist language, and misuse of apparently technical jargon in an effort to give claims the superficial trappings of science
Ikari said:
Zero point energies, Lamb shift have been well measured. Other effects are continually being demonstrated in new experiments including electron-lattice interactions, electron mass renormalization, and high energy experiments in colliders. Continually refined, continually measured, continually scrutinized. Nothing to date has come up which would indicate that random vacuum fluctuations are as you say they are. Rather, all the data seems to say that the scientists have a good understanding of the phenomenon and all affects that it would cause are being measured and confirmed. So again...looks like the scientists win.
OK you are not addressing my words. You are bringing in more and more new ‘’experiments’’ and terms omitting the one I questioned. [ame=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_by_verbosity]Proof by intimidation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia[/ame]
Ikari said:
Personal opinion backed by nothing but bias and bigotry. Prove it.
Ok, you are getting really funny. Listen, I formulated the thesis, the one you are quoting. And then of course I posted the proof. Let me see what is your disproof, if any.
Ikari said:
Nothing but garbage. This is personal opinion and hatred thrown at science and progress. You don't understand fully the dynamics you're trying to rally against and can not come up with a coherent and scientific argument against it. Fail.
No disproof, no refutation as usual, unless you want me to believe just your word that I don’t understand and you do.
Ikari said:
Math for the sake of math can be confusing.
What math for the sake of math are you talking about, and how in the world math can be confusing?
Ikari said:
But we're not talking of that, we're talking of measurement. Measurement is beyond pretty math and philosophy, measurement is real.
You are not running fever are you? Measurement is beyond math, so you measure in fossils and dynamics, but not in numbers and millimeters?
Ikari said:
Science hasn't ended with Einstein, it has exploded since then. And all done in proper scientific form. Again, this is what it comes down to. You are a guy with an agenda, you have clear bigotry and bias towards science and progress. You rant and rave about how science is wrong. Science, on the other hand, has measurements (something you have not once presented...I have) and has results, measured. That's reality. You want me to believe your side even though you have offered nothing but semantics, poor philosophy, and unsubstantiated rantings. Einstein is not the end all to science, we have expanded knowledge far beyond what Einstein contributed. You seem sort of the plum pudding sort of fellow; I'm more of the quantum mechanically derived and measured sort of fellow. I'll take what is proven, not the rantings of a man with clear agenda against science.
I thought you did not have time working on your PhD, how then you had time to type 148 words to say just 24?
I have no other choice but to conclude from your contra-argument that after Einstein they abolished rules of science Einstein and all other before him were using. And that allowed science to explode. Would you be so kind to show me what was wrong with the old rules and post the new rules?
Ikari said:
And all done in proper scientific form. Science, has measurements and has results, measured. Measurement is beyond … math, measurement is real.
You keep on repeating it… May be you were not running fever. Should I read it as the new rule which had replaced the old ones?
Ikari said:
I am a published physicist, you are not. You're a guy on the internet with a religious agenda to push and you're pissed off because I say keep religion and science separate. You are a guy with an agenda, you have clear bigotry and bias towards science and progress. That's all this comes down to. You're pissed because you can't demonstrate your points at all, but you want me to accept them as scientific and I refuse. My atoms tell me quantum mechanics works. BECs test the fundamental laws of quantum mechanics to see if they're true or not. My work in AMO is dominated by quantum effects and well explained by them. The dynamics and the theory match up. Nature always has the truth; we just have to be able to listen to what it has to say. Not rant and rave in closed minded bigotry because someone dared say something you don't like. That gets us nowhere, and humanity doesn't sit still. Stagnation is death.
You are a published physicist, at least, you are published on DP, and you are an experimentalist - it took you only 6 posts and 3 days to see the pattern and to realize what was going on in spite of me even putting up a count in numbers, when there hardly were too many readers who did not understand what was going on from the beginning. Your atoms certainly took time before telling you the truth. They screwed you up. Was it the nature who told you that I was no published physicist or you just googled my name? As well I bet it didn’t take too much effort for some representatives of humanity even if they were not published physicists to realize what was my agenda as clearly as I stated it, as clearly as Tucker stated his, when your dynamics is still making you to stagnate in the same hole you are digging under yourself deeper and deeper.
Ikari said:
Measured reality is measured reality and nothing you can say detracts from that. You have no measurement to back up your claims, I have well documented measurement to back up mine. From the Lamb Shift to Evolution, it's measured. We know it happened. We know things have changed. You're arguing stagnation, I'm arguing change. The data supports one of us...care to take a guess which one?
The data support both of us. We just live in different realities. My reality is measured by numbers and uses mathematics when in your reality measurement is beyond math which is a demon or evil of some kind for you. For me mathematics brings clarity, for you it brings confusion. We both know that things have changed, but for you a change is digging a hole under yourself for 6 posts and 3 days, when I had just look back once in while to check the dynamics of your change and put up the numbers describing the dynamics as amount of words being a function of time. In spite of the fact that English is not my native language I do formulate my arguments in a clear, as simple as possible and a non-ambiguous way, so that not only Infinite Chaos who is not a scientist can hear, understand or question me, but even I myself start understanding things. I don’t know if Infinite Chaos hears from you anything but ‘’Puff…pufff..pufff… I am a published physicist… puff…pufff..pufff… electron mass renormalization… you are nobody…’’ and if you understand what you are saying. We are of totally different schools, of totally different realities. In my schools they would kill me and laugh over my dead body not only if I ever tried to pull puff…. puff… - that was out of question, but just for a wrong word, for exceeding speed of light instead of reaching speed of light.
Ikari said:
No it's not. I've had enough of your flippant philosophy and mindless rants against science and progress. You've backed up nothing you had to say, you refuse to acknowledge measurement, it's completely pointless.
Silly. You could save time and effort just posting this paragraph. I guess you felt that after 3 says and 6 posts with over 2000 words you had to let me know that at last you got it and I could at last start reading? Well, this time you got it and I have read and the reading was entertaining.