Even Doctors Value The Health of The Fetus

[collected]

The medical community values the health of the fetus so much that they have sanctioned surgery that puts women's health at risk for the purpose of benefiting fetal health. If refuting my argument, please reference the premise/conclusion being refuted.


Premise 1:
Fetal surgery involves significant health risks to the pregnant woman such as preterm labor, infertility, infection, uterine rupture, and surgical complications.

Premise 2:
The primary purpose of fetal surgery by the medical community is to provide substantial health benefits for the fetus, ensuring better health outcomes throughout its life.

Conclusion:
The medical community values the health of the fetus so much that they have sanctioned fetal surgery for the purpose of providing substantial health benefits for the fetus despite the significant health risks it poses to the mother.


Premise 1 Citation:

Due to the complexity of fetal and neonatal surgery, as well as the seriousness of the conditions they treat, these procedures come with a variety of potential risks for both the baby and mother. In addition to surgical complications (e.g., bleeding or infection), these include the following:

• Early labor and delivery
• Failure to repair defect
• Fetal death
• Gestational diabetes
• Infertility
• Uterine rupture

Source: https://columbiasurgery.org/conditions-and-treatments/fetal-and-neonatal-surgery

Premise 2 Citations:

The standard of care for spina bifida is neurosurgical closure of the defect in the first days of life,

Source: https://www.texaschildrens.org/content/media/pioneering-procedure

The overarching goal of fetal interventions is clear: to improve the health of children by intervening before birth to correct or treat prenatally diagnosed abnormalities.

Source: https://www.acog.org/clinical/clini...nal-fetal-intervention-and-fetal-care-centers

The purpose of intrauterine fetal surgery is to correct fetal malformations that interfere with organ development and fetal survival.

Source: https://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/400_499/0449.html

Fetal surgery is a procedure performed on an unborn baby (fetus) in the uterus (in utero) to help improve the long-term outcome of children with specific birth defects.

Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/fetal-surgery/about/pac-20384571

Fetal surgeons intervene to save the fetus or improve long-term outcomes after birth.

Source: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/24945-fetal-surgery

 

[Ginger Ale]

Conservative dudes should stay out of women's reproductive care, you're doing more harm than good. You aren't part of the medical community or you'd know as much.

 

[soylentgreen]

Is there supposed to be a problem here to discuss?

 

[MamboDervish]

Even Doctors Value The Health of The Fetus​

So what?

 

[Lursa]

The medical community values the health of the fetus so much that they have sanctioned surgery that puts women's health at risk for the purpose of benefiting fetal health. If refuting my argument, please reference the premise/conclusion being refuted.


Premise 1:
Fetal surgery involves significant health risks to the pregnant woman such as preterm labor, infertility, infection, uterine rupture, and surgical complications.

Premise 2:
The primary purpose of fetal surgery by the medical community is to provide substantial health benefits for the fetus, ensuring better health outcomes throughout its life.

Conclusion:
The medical community values the health of the fetus so much that they have sanctioned fetal surgery for the purpose of providing substantial health benefits for the fetus despite the significant health risks it poses to the mother.


Premise 1 Citation:

Source: https://columbiasurgery.org/conditions-and-treatments/fetal-and-neonatal-surgery

Premise 2 Citations:

Source: https://www.texaschildrens.org/content/media/pioneering-procedure


Source: https://www.acog.org/clinical/clini...nal-fetal-intervention-and-fetal-care-centers


Source: https://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/400_499/0449.html


Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/fetal-surgery/about/pac-20384571


Source: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/24945-fetal-surgery

Why wouldnt doctors perform medical procedures on the unborn with the woman's consent? The woman has already assumed the substantial risk of pregnancy/childbirth by choosing to have a child...how is it different if she also accepts the risks of fetal surgery?

Why is it surprising to you that doctors value unborn lives? Veterinarians perform procedures on pets...I'm sure they value those lives. What's so different about valuing unborn human lives?

Your "conclusion" isnt something I've ever seen anyone question...except you.

 

[collected]

Even Doctors Value The Health of The Fetus​

So what?

If the health of the fetus is important enough to justify fetal surgery with its risks to the mother then it demonstrates a significant valuation of fetal health by the medical community. Consistency in ethical and medical reasoning should require that this high value placed on fetal health be considered in other decisions affecting the fetus such as abortion. The health of the fetus should also be taken into consideration when it comes to abortion by the medical community.

 

[Lursa]

If the health of the fetus is important enough to justify fetal surgery with its risks to the mother then it demonstrates a significant valuation of fetal health by the medical community. Consistency in ethical and medical reasoning should require that this high value placed on fetal health be considered in other decisions affecting the fetus such as abortion. The health of the fetus should also be taken into consideration when it comes to abortion by the medical community.

Doesnt matter if the doctors have their personal ethics...they cant perform any fetal surgery without the woman's consent. They also cant perform an abortion without her consent. What's your point?

And women cannot compel doctors to perform medical procedures the doctors do not consent to. Right? Again, what's your point?

My point is that everyone gets to value what's important to them.

 

[Sweden]

Is there supposed to be a problem here to discuss?

Right. In Sweden - andI i expect the USA -fetal surgery will only be performed if the mother so requests: she will be told in detail of any potential risks to herself.

 

[Ginger Ale]

This is like saying, because a chef throws some last minute ingredients into a cake batter on the request of the baker, that means they value the cake batter as if it's a finished product, and should force them to finish it. It takes work to see a baby to term, and it's life risking. You have to want the end result. Don't confuse batter with cake. You're missing all the work in-between.


Has nothing to do whether or not a baker decides to mix and cook that batter. It doesn't mean you can force the baker to make that cake you're dreaming of. That's their choice.

It's a really bad idea to treat women like ovens. Stop daydreaming of babies that aren't made yet.

 

[collected]

Why wouldnt doctors perform procedures on the unborn at the woman's request? The woman has already assumed the risk of pregnancy/childbirth by choosing to have a child...why cant she choose any possible risks of fetal surgery?

Veterinarians perform procedures on pets...I'm sure they value those lives.

Your response does not refute my premises or conclusion. The medical community has declared that the procedures are performed to provide substantial health benefits for the fetus. They did not declare that they perform the procedures simply for the purpose of fulfilling the mother's request.

 

[Lursa]

Your response does not refute my premises or conclusion. The medical community has declared that the procedures are performed to provide substantial health benefits for the fetus.

Never saw anyone dispute that. Why else would 'the medical community' perform fetal surgery?

They did not declare that they perform the procedures simply for the purpose of fulfilling the mother's request.

Who said they did? Would they perform fetal surgery she requested if the doctors didnt see a medical need for the unborn, for example?

 

[Airyaman]

Well, this is certainly a thread. Just not sure what we are supposed to make of it.

Yes, doctors treat patients. I didn't think that was some mystery that needed to be solved.

 

[Individual]

The medical community values the health of the fetus so much that they have sanctioned surgery that puts women's health at risk for the purpose of benefiting fetal health. If refuting my argument, please reference the premise/conclusion being refuted.


Premise 1:
Fetal surgery involves significant health risks to the pregnant woman such as preterm labor, infertility, infection, uterine rupture, and surgical complications.

Premise 2:
The primary purpose of fetal surgery by the medical community is to provide substantial health benefits for the fetus, ensuring better health outcomes throughout its life.

Conclusion:
The medical community values the health of the fetus so much that they have sanctioned fetal surgery for the purpose of providing substantial health benefits for the fetus despite the significant health risks it poses to the mother.


Premise 1 Citation:

Source: https://columbiasurgery.org/conditions-and-treatments/fetal-and-neonatal-surgery

Premise 2 Citations:

Source: https://www.texaschildrens.org/content/media/pioneering-procedure


Source: https://www.acog.org/clinical/clini...nal-fetal-intervention-and-fetal-care-centers


Source: https://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/400_499/0449.html


Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/fetal-surgery/about/pac-20384571


Source: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/24945-fetal-surgery

Of course, but the decision is made by the Woman.

 

[The Stars Tremble]

Some women value their pregnancy so much that they will take a medical risk themselves. What is so remarkable about this?

 

[The Stars Tremble]

Your response does not refute my premises or conclusion. The medical community has declared that the procedures are performed to provide substantial health benefits for the fetus. They did not declare that they perform the procedures simply for the purpose of fulfilling the mother's request.

As your people like to say, the fetus is a "potential human person". As long as it's inside a woman, the woman gets to make decisions bearing on that future human person.

Actually, even after birth parents get to make life or death decisions for their child. At what age the child gets a say, is a vexed question, but not really relevant here.

 

[ataraxia]

The medical community values the health of the fetus so much that they have sanctioned surgery that puts women's health at risk for the purpose of benefiting fetal health. If refuting my argument, please reference the premise/conclusion being refuted.


Premise 1:
Fetal surgery involves significant health risks to the pregnant woman such as preterm labor, infertility, infection, uterine rupture, and surgical complications.

Premise 2:
The primary purpose of fetal surgery by the medical community is to provide substantial health benefits for the fetus, ensuring better health outcomes throughout its life.

Conclusion:
The medical community values the health of the fetus so much that they have sanctioned fetal surgery for the purpose of providing substantial health benefits for the fetus despite the significant health risks it poses to the mother.


Premise 1 Citation:

Source: https://columbiasurgery.org/conditions-and-treatments/fetal-and-neonatal-surgery

Premise 2 Citations:

Source: https://www.texaschildrens.org/content/media/pioneering-procedure


Source: https://www.acog.org/clinical/clini...nal-fetal-intervention-and-fetal-care-centers


Source: https://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/400_499/0449.html


Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/fetal-surgery/about/pac-20384571


Source: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/24945-fetal-surgery

In the medical field, life is about consciousness, sentience, and ultimately, brain activity. When a patient has lost brain activity, they are declared brain dead. For mist practical purposes and medical and legal decision-making, that patient is considered dead and life support is withdrawn. It’s not that they’re truly dead, but in a vegetable state. The person is no longer considered alive in the sense of human life, even though they’re still composed of living human cells and may have a spontaneous heartbeat.

The mechanism of how the brain generates consciousness is not fully understood yet. It is not defined by intelligence, but does have some sort of neural substrate that has only been partially worked out by neuroscientist so far. There is still a lot of work being done in this field.

Consciousness is on a spectrum, and is probably not an all are none phenomenon. Biologically, there is probably a continuum of consciousness, from bacteria, to plants, to jellyfish, to insects, to rabbits, to cats and dogs, to primates, and to humans.

The problem with abortion is that it sees life and consciousness as an all or none phenomenon, trying to find the one place which defines life. And reality, it probably is occurring on a much more continuous spectrum. But if a place is to be defined, it would probably be somewhere between the 20 and 30th week of gestation, at which point electrical activity in the brain first begins to develop.

Until then, the embryo was just a ball of cells with the potential to become a conscious human being. So doctors treat the welfare of that potential for people who are interested in that potential coming to fruition.

It is no different than taking careful care of the frozen eggs of a woman who wants to have children in the future. But that does not mean that each individual unfettilized frozen egg should be treated as a human being.

 

[soylentgreen]

Your response does not refute my premises or conclusion. The medical community has declared that the procedures are performed to provide substantial health benefits for the fetus. They did not declare that they perform the procedures simply for the purpose of fulfilling the mother's request.

Did they declare that they would perform the surgery despite the protests of the mother not to? Did they declare that they would not ensure that the mother was fully informed of all risks before she made any decisions? Did they declare that any frivolous reason to perform a surgery would be good enough to risk the health of the patient?

Stop cherry picking out one fact and pretending you have a legitimate concern.

 

[Gordy327]

Right. In Sweden - andI i expect the USA -fetal surgery will only be performed if the mother so requests: she will be told in detail of any potential risks to herself.

That is the same of any medical procedures in the US. For anyone seeking or needing a medical procedure, the risks and benefits are explained and weighed, questions are answered, and the patient consents to the procedure or not. They can even withdraw consent anytime before the actual procedure too.

 

[BirdinHand]

You guys - doctors perform medical procedures that come with risks to patients.



Patients then determine whether or not they consent to those procedures.


News at 10.

 

[HonestJoe]

If the health of the fetus is important enough to justify fetal surgery with its risks to the mother then it demonstrates a significant valuation of fetal health by the medical community. Consistency in ethical and medical reasoning should require that this high value placed on fetal health be considered in other decisions affecting the fetus such as abortion. The health of the fetus should also be taken into consideration when it comes to abortion by the medical community.

It is. Whether they're considering fetal surgery or abortion, medical professionals will consider the health and wellbeing of both the mother and the child and, in discussion with the mother, come to a rational conclusion for the best approach.

One of the major issues with some of the anti-abortion legislation brought in various US states of late is that they very strictly and proscriptively define the circumstances that abortion can even be considered, almost entirely removing that professional medical opinion from the process. This is exactly why so many of us say abortion should be primarily a matter between a woman and her doctors, with just the typical kind of broad regulation that applies to any other medical treatment or procedures.

 

[Noodlegawd]

The medical community values the health of the fetus so much that they have sanctioned surgery that puts women's health at risk for the purpose of benefiting fetal health. If refuting my argument, please reference the premise/conclusion being refuted.


Premise 1:
Fetal surgery involves significant health risks to the pregnant woman such as preterm labor, infertility, infection, uterine rupture, and surgical complications.

Premise 2:
The primary purpose of fetal surgery by the medical community is to provide substantial health benefits for the fetus, ensuring better health outcomes throughout its life.

Conclusion:
The medical community values the health of the fetus so much that they have sanctioned fetal surgery for the purpose of providing substantial health benefits for the fetus despite the significant health risks it poses to the mother.


Premise 1 Citation:

Source: https://columbiasurgery.org/conditions-and-treatments/fetal-and-neonatal-surgery

Premise 2 Citations:

Source: https://www.texaschildrens.org/content/media/pioneering-procedure


Source: https://www.acog.org/clinical/clini...nal-fetal-intervention-and-fetal-care-centers


Source: https://www.aetna.com/cpb/medical/data/400_499/0449.html


Source: https://www.mayoclinic.org/tests-procedures/fetal-surgery/about/pac-20384571


Source: https://my.clevelandclinic.org/health/treatments/24945-fetal-surgery

All of this is premised on the woman with the fetus inside of her consenting to it. So whatever this thing is that you're calling an "argument" is totally beside the point.

 

[collected]

It is. Whether they're considering fetal surgery or abortion, medical professionals will consider the health and wellbeing of both the mother and the child and, in discussion with the mother, come to a rational conclusion for the best approach.

That may be the case in some situations, however you're conflating individual medical decisions with the inherent objectives of medical procedures and thus your argument refutes nothing I've said.

The primary purpose of abortion procedures by the medical community is to terminate a pregnancy, which involves killing the fetus.
The primary purpose of fetal surgery by the medical community is to provide substantial health benefits for the fetus.

Well, this is certainly a thread. Just not sure what we are supposed to make of it.

Yes, doctors treat patients. I didn't think that was some mystery that needed to be solved.

So wouldn't the fetus be a patient since it's being treated?

Who said they did? Would they perform fetal surgery she requested if the doctors didnt see a medical need for the unborn, for example?

It seems that you don't dispute the premises/conclusion?

Some women value their pregnancy so much that they will take a medical risk themselves. What is so remarkable about this?

You're conflating individual medical decisions with the inherent objectives of procedures. The medical community has dictated that fetal surgeries are offered for the purpose of improving the health of the fetus.

As your people like to say, the fetus is a "potential human person". As long as it's inside a woman, the woman gets to make decisions bearing on that future human person.

Actually, even after birth parents get to make life or death decisions for their child. At what age the child gets a say, is a vexed question, but not really relevant here.

None of what you said refutes the premises or conclusion. So do you agree with the premises or conclusion?

 

[Airyaman]

So wouldn't the fetus be a patient since it's being treated?

 

[Lursa]

It seems that you don't dispute the premises/conclusion?

When did I? When did anyone? Why not answer my questions if you want to explore further?

Why wouldnt doctors perform medical procedures on the unborn with the woman's consent? The woman has already assumed the substantial risk of pregnancy/childbirth by choosing to have a child...how is it different if she also accepts the risks of fetal surgery?​

​

Why is it surprising to you that doctors value unborn lives? Veterinarians perform procedures on pets...I'm sure they value those lives. What's so different about valuing unborn human lives?​

--and--

Why else would 'the medical community' perform fetal surgery? (Re: it's for the primary benefit of the unborn's health)​

​

Who said they did? Would they perform fetal surgery she requested if the doctors didnt see a medical need for the unborn, for example? (Re: Drs do not perform the procedures simply for the purpose of fulfilling the mother's request.)​

Please answer my questions to better support the reasoning for why you posted your OP.

 

[BirdinHand]

The primary purpose of abortion procedures by the medical community is to terminate a pregnancy, which involves killing the fetus.

Correct

The primary purpose of fetal surgery by the medical community is to provide substantial health benefits for the fetus.

Correct


You still aren’t making a point/argument with your posts.