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Europe America clash over Ukraine.

spangledbanner

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The US sides push to arm Ukraine with weapons to hold off the pro-Russian rebels has caused cracks to appear in the Euro-US relationship. Support for the Russian sanctions has been waning with France calling for an end to them recently and Italy, Hungary and Greece and others all voicing concerns or wanting to ease them. The frantic France-Germany push for a peaceful diplomatic solution to the Ukraine conflict from the Europeans is clearly an effort to prevent the US side from arming the Ukraine. If the US were to cause the conflict to escalate by arming Ukraine with advanced weapons then it would be the Europeans that would find themselves in a war zone not the Americans. Europe is clearly not willing to fight WW3 over the Ukraine for America.

It is the Americans that have been the driving force pushing for the Russian sanctions but it is the European economy and Europeans that suffer. Trade between Russia and America is not significant so the Americans do not lose anything, but trade between Russia and Europe is significant so it is the European economy that suffers while the US side lose nothing. This push to arm Ukraine with advanced weapons puts Europeans at risk of war but there is little risk for the Americans. The Americans want to attack Russia but for all the pain and risk to fall on the Europeans. It is little wonder that the Europeans have had finally had enough and that this push to arm Ukraine has led to a split.


Merkel has said that she does not believe that better weapons for Ukraine will encourage the pro-Russians to back down saying “The question is, would it be all that different if the weapons of the Ukrainian army were somewhat different,” Merkel said. “I have my doubts.” "This can not be won militarily. That is the bitter truth. The international community must think of something else."

The US push to arm Ukraine is bi-partisan but as usual usual war hawks Lindsay Graham and John McCain are the most vocal in calling for the arming of Ukraine. Graham responded to the Europeans push for a peaceful diplomatic solution to the conflict by saying Merkel “can’t see how arming people who are willing to fight and die for their freedom makes things better. I do,” “You (Merkel) can go to Moscow until you are blue in the face. Stand up to what is a lie and clearly a danger.” Graham said that Merkel was turning her back on a struggling democracy and that he hopes that Ms Merkel "remembers all the sacrificed made by so many over so long a period of time to achieve what we have in Germany today." Clearly the wests strategy in Ukraine is breaking down and resulting in western conflict.


American Vice President Joe Biden supports arming the Ukrainians. Joe says that "America and Europe are being tested" and that "We need to remain resolute and united in our support of Ukraine." Clearly the Europeans and Americans are not united at all on Ukraine. Clearly the Europeans and Americans are failing this test. Clearly the Europeans are not willing to suffer the costs of war with Russia for America while America risks nothing.


With this clash between America and Europe is it time to ask ourselves if Ukraine is really worth it to the west? Ukraine is a dysfunctional basketcase and few western citizens want to spend money on defending it or propping up their government. The west cannot afford to save Ukraine. And we also need to consider Crimea. The American/west side made a big song and dance about Crimea but one year on Crimeans are happier to be part of Russia.


Ukrainian political scientist Taras Berezovets, a Crimea native, recently started an initiative he called Free Crimea, aided by the Canada Fund for Local Initiatives and aimed at building Ukrainian soft power on the peninsula. He started by commissioning a poll of Crimean residents from the Ukrainian branch of Germany's biggest market research organization, GfK. The poll results were something of a cold shower to Berezovets.

Eighty-two percent of those polled said they fully supported Crimea's inclusion in Russia, and another 11 percent expressed partial support. Only 4 percent spoke out against it.
-Bloomberg

The Americans were wrong about Crimea.

The Americans were wrong about backing the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt.

The Americans armed rebels in Libya and look how that turned out. The rebels armed rebels in Syria and look how that turned out. A lot of these weapons would now be in the hands of IS. Why should we think that America sending arms to Ukraine will help anything? Why should we trust Americas judgement when they have proven to be wrong on things like this time and time again?
 
It is selfish for the Americans to expect the Europeans to suffer for Americas attacks on Russia. Instead of arming Ukraine with better weapons it is time to start thinking about ending the sanctions on Russia. The sanctions on Russia are unfair and they are hurting economies beyond Russia. The sanctions on Russia do nothing to encourage a solution to the Ukraine conflict.

Europeans should encourage America to officially send in American ground troops to help Ukraine hold of the Russian rebels. The world should stop fighting Americas wars for them. If America feels so strongly about the Ukraine conflict them let them send Americans to fight. The Americans had trouble with the Taliban and I am sure they would have trouble with pro-Russian rebels as well. I think that the Americans are afraid to put boots on the ground because they know that the US military is overrated and they cannot afford a military defeat. The Ukraine government has asked for help so if the Americans feel so strongly about it then why are they spending time crying about Merkel instead of sending in US troops? Ukraine government is asking for them so why is America turning their backs on a so-called 'struggling democracy'?

Do you agree that America should fight their own ground wars?
 
The USA should give the Ukraine government surface to air missiles and anti tank/armored personnel weapons, plus 50,000 sniper rifles.

The people of Ukraine have generations of reasons to hate Russians taking their land, their resources and killing their people.

The greatest error Hitler made was upon invading Russia he did not announce to Ukraine "YOU ARE FREE OF RUSSIA AND STALIN!"

Given the people of Ukraine a way to deal with Russian aircraft and heavy armor and they will take care of the Russians in their country.
 
I've noticed that those who identify themselves as socialists absolutely love the mega-billionaire homophobe and imperialist Putin, hoping for a recreation of the USSR.
 
I've noticed that those who identify themselves as socialists absolutely love the mega-billionaire homophobe and imperialist Putin, hoping for a recreation of the USSR.

Similarities attract.
 
Do you agree that America should fight their own ground wars?

We do fight our own ground wars, along with everybody else's. You're welcome.

Perhaps everyone else should start fighting their own wars and dealing with their own security instead of suckling on the US's power tit.
 
We do fight our own ground wars, along with everybody else's. You're welcome.

Perhaps everyone else should start fighting their own wars and dealing with their own security instead of suckling on the US's power tit.

Welcome for what?

And America sucks. The Taliban beat you. You have no ground game and never did. Remember Vietnam? And what about North Korea? The Chinese smashed America when America came too close to China border. Pushed you back. America has always sucked. Look at WW2. You wait and wait and come in late when the hard fighting in Europe is finished. And still have trouble. You were too scared to invade Japan so you fire bombed it to the ground and then nuked it. American military is overrated. American troops are overrated. Send some to Russia. I dare you.

America is overrated and when USA suffers humiliating military defeat that will be the end for America. This is why America doesnt want to get involved in anything or take any responsibility for anything. If America goes to Russia and fails then USA will be finished. And look at Ukraine army. They are all deserting. Nobody wants to fight. They are all dodging the draft. Imagine that, Ukrainians have conscription. To fight a war for America. And they go to jail if they dodge. The Ukrainians are against what America is doing and the nation is falling apart. This is why America wants to send military aid. Because Ukraine has no army. Ukraine army is falling apart. Ukrainians do not want to fight for America. So send Americans. What is stopping you? Ukraine nazi government that you installed is asking for help arent they? France and Germany cant stop you sending troops. Do it. The Ukrainians want your help. You cant leave them all to die now after encouraging them.

America is overrated. America is losing. America cant win a ground war.

Ukraine is a nazi government that the CIA installed after overthrowing an elected government and now Ukraine has civil war and the Ukraines under American rule do not want to fight against Russia, because Russia will slaughter them. Ukraine is arresting non-western journalists. Everything is falling apart. And Europe do not want American weapons so will not want US 'boots on ground'.

And suckling at Americas power tit? Ukraine government was overthrown by CIA because it was pro-Russia/East. The whole world is trying to overthrow the USD reserve status. DeAmericanization is the political issue of the times. The world hates you.
 
Yet another Putinista spewing his rubbish.
 

Russia is a pathetically irrelevant wasteland run by a homophobic tyrant. Russians try to live in their past glory while the world passes by and evolves around them. The sole reason the USSR broke up was because all of the eastern block countries wanted to get away from Russia's nonsense. Ukraine chose the west and Russia threw a hissy fit because nobody wants to be associated with you. You will bow to your American overlords.
 
Yet another Putinista spewing his rubbish. Yeah, Simplex?

 
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There is a lot of granstanding on this issue and not enough cool reasoning. The fact of the matter is that arming the Ukraine and encouraging it to choose to fight the Russian-supported rebels, rather than seek a diplomatic solution, means inviting the Ukranians to fight a war they can't win. No amount of outside support - barring a full scale military intervention by NATO and thus an all-out war between NATO and Russia (which nobody in their right mind is ready to contemplate) - can adjust the military, economic and political balance in such a way that the Ukraine can win against Russia.
 
The core problem is, Russia doesn't honor the commitments it signs. In regards to Ukraine, Russia has violated...

Geneva Convention relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War (1950)
PACE/Immunity Article (1949/1952) - As a result, Russia's initial 2014 suspension from the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe was continued in 2015
The Helsinki Final Act (1975)
Protocol I Article 44 of the Geneva Conventions (1977)
The Belavezha Accords (1991)
The Alma-Ata Protocol (1991)
The Budapest Memorandum on Security Assurances (1994)
United Nations General Assembly Resolution 68/262 (2014)
The Minsk Agreements (2014)

Which leads to this...

Pro-Russia Rebels Reject Peace Deal, Launch New Offensive

Which in turn leads to Merkel and Hollande trying to get Putin to sign-off on yet another worthless document in Minsk...

Putin, Poroshenko, Merkel and Hollande to meet in Minsk
 
The reason of Merkel and Hollande's activity is simple - Debaltsevo cauldron.


Logvinovo today was liberated by NAF. Encircling of Ukrainian troops in Debaltsevo is over, the cauldron is closed. Information was confirmed by Russian journalists in the warzone.

The west again needs to save his proxis in Ukraine from the next defeat, that's why all this diplomatic moves.
 
The only thing affecting the EU thinking is the Russian natural gas supply.
 

A lot of commitments have been broken on all sides, primarily commitments between Ukrainians. There is plenty of blame to go around here. But that really doesn't matter very much. My point is that encouraging Ukraine to self-destruct by waging a war it cannot win is not really a good solution.
 
My point is that encouraging Ukraine to self-destruct by waging a war it cannot win is not really a good solution.
Granted, it isn't.

However, simply handing Russia and its proxies all of the regions in Ukraine that were called Novorossiya in Czarist times is no viable solution either.
 
I've noticed that those who identify themselves as socialists absolutely love the mega-billionaire homophobe and imperialist Putin, hoping for a recreation of the USSR.

The Putinistas currently consist of those who love that oligarchic strong man approach to diplomacy, those who loathe the United States and see everything wrong in the world as the US fault, and the Russians who are too stupid to think for themselves and believe every piece of propaganda coming out of Moscow. You see all three types represented in this thread.
 

Well, at least you are now acknowledging Russian Imperialism. I guess that's progress. Welcome to the club. Most of the rest of us saw it years ago.
 
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