English Language's Loss

One of the stranger consequences of the Brexit is the now greater threat that the English language will lose its status as a world lingua franca language. With the UK's former membership in the EU, its strategic value to the European community (e.g., UN Security Council Seat) and its contribution of the financial capital that is London to the European; English needed to be recognized by the EU as an official language. In fact Europeans have long seen English as a necessarily language to learn in order to communicate with their fellow Europeans.

However yesterday changed that incentive for nearly 700 million people. Brexit ensures that EU loses almost all of its native English speakers, and that nearly all European business, government, and culture shifts to what was formerly a runner-up language: German. Think of it. German was already the native language of a plurality of Europeans. But now Europe's financial capital is Frankfurt. It's strongest economy is Germany. Britain's ability to exert sway in Europe's governments has totally vanished, while Merkel and her government's power grew simply due to her counterparts' self-injury. The whole culture simply becomes Continental.

Certainly it'll take years to seem the demographics shift, but the incentive for hundreds of millions of people to learn English evaporated overnight.

So that leaves the question -- Will 380 million Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders be enough to keep 700 million Europeans speaking English? Or should we be thanking right-wingers and euro-skeptics for the dearth of our native language?

brothern said:

One of the stranger consequences of the Brexit is the now greater threat that the English language will lose its status as a world lingua franca language. With the UK's former membership in the EU, its strategic value to the European community (e.g., UN Security Council Seat) and its contribution of the financial capital that is London to the European; English needed to be recognized by the EU as an official language. In fact Europeans have long seen English as a necessarily language to learn in order to communicate with their fellow Europeans.

However yesterday changed that incentive for nearly 700 million people. Brexit ensures that EU loses almost all of its native English speakers, and that nearly all European business, government, and culture shifts to what was formerly a runner-up language: German. Think of it. German was already the native language of a plurality of Europeans. But now Europe's financial capital is Frankfurt. It's strongest economy is Germany. Britain's ability to exert sway in Europe's governments has totally vanished, while Merkel and her government's power grew simply due to her counterparts' self-injury. The whole culture simply becomes Continental.

Certainly it'll take years to seem the demographics shift, but the incentive for hundreds of millions of people to learn English evaporated overnight.

So that leaves the question -- Will 380 million Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders be enough to keep 700 million Europeans speaking English? Or should we be thanking right-wingers and euro-skeptics for the dearth of our native language?

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I think we will all manage somehow, one way or the other.

brothern said:

One of the stranger consequences of the Brexit is the now greater threat that the English language will lose its status as a world lingua franca language. With the UK's former membership in the EU, its strategic value to the European community (e.g., UN Security Council Seat) and its contribution of the financial capital that is London to the European; English needed to be recognized by the EU as an official language. In fact Europeans have long seen English as a necessarily language to learn in order to communicate with their fellow Europeans.

However yesterday changed that incentive for nearly 700 million people. Brexit ensures that EU loses almost all of its native English speakers, and that nearly all European business, government, and culture shifts to what was formerly a runner-up language: German. Think of it. German was already the native language of a plurality of Europeans. But now Europe's financial capital is Frankfurt. It's strongest economy is Germany. Britain's ability to exert sway in Europe's governments has totally vanished, while Merkel and her government's power grew simply due to her counterparts' self-injury. The whole culture simply becomes Continental.

Certainly it'll take years to seem the demographics shift, but the incentive for hundreds of millions of people to learn English evaporated overnight.

So that leaves the question -- Will 380 million Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders be enough to keep 700 million Europeans speaking English? Or should we be thanking right-wingers and euro-skeptics for the dearth of our native language?

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Hmm, I don't think it is England that has been the bulwark of "English" being the lingua franca of the world. I think that ship sailed shortly after World War I, and surely sank after World War II.

It's the fact that the U.S.A.'s primary language was "American English" that has kept it as the language of diplomacy up till now.

The problem as I see it is the current devaluation of English in our own nation with this insane push for language diversity.

People coming to the USA and being coddled along in their own languages instead of being compelled by necessity to learn one common tongue.

I shudder to think how our already regionally divided nation may soon become even more balkanized by language diversity.

brothern said:

One of the stranger consequences of the Brexit is the now greater threat that the English language will lose its status as a world lingua franca language. With the UK's former membership in the EU, its strategic value to the European community (e.g., UN Security Council Seat) and its contribution of the financial capital that is London to the European; English needed to be recognized by the EU as an official language. In fact Europeans have long seen English as a necessarily language to learn in order to communicate with their fellow Europeans.

However yesterday changed that incentive for nearly 700 million people. Brexit ensures that EU loses almost all of its native English speakers, and that nearly all European business, government, and culture shifts to what was formerly a runner-up language: German. Think of it. German was already the native language of a plurality of Europeans. But now Europe's financial capital is Frankfurt. It's strongest economy is Germany. Britain's ability to exert sway in Europe's governments has totally vanished, while Merkel and her government's power grew simply due to her counterparts' self-injury. The whole culture simply becomes Continental.

Certainly it'll take years to seem the demographics shift, but the incentive for hundreds of millions of people to learn English evaporated overnight.

So that leaves the question -- Will 380 million Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders be enough to keep 700 million Europeans speaking English? Or should we be thanking right-wingers and euro-skeptics for the dearth of our native language?

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No, not even remotely. English is the world's chosen second language and it has zero to do with the UK being the EU or not.

It's pretty much here to stay, as there is no other language that can take it's place for int'l communication for a number of reasons.

There is no rational basis for assuming that German will replace it in Europe or anywhere else.

No incentive to learn English evaporated.

Chicken Little nonsense assuming facts not in evidence.

brothern said:

One of the stranger consequences of the Brexit is the now greater threat that the English language will lose its status as a world lingua franca language. With the UK's former membership in the EU, its strategic value to the European community (e.g., UN Security Council Seat) and its contribution of the financial capital that is London to the European; English needed to be recognized by the EU as an official language. In fact Europeans have long seen English as a necessarily language to learn in order to communicate with their fellow Europeans.

However yesterday changed that incentive for nearly 700 million people. Brexit ensures that EU loses almost all of its native English speakers, and that European business, government, and culture will shift to what was formerly a runner-up language: German. Think of it. German was already the native language of a plurality of Europeans. But now, Europe's financial capital is Frankfurt. It's strongest economy is Germany. Britain's ability to exert sway in Europe's governments has totally vanished. Merkel and her government's power grew simply due to her counterparts' self-injury. The whole culture becomes Continental.

Certainly it'll take years to seem the demographics shift, but the incentive for hundreds of millions of people to learn English evaporated overnight.

So that leaves the question -- Will 380 million Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders be enough to keep 700 million Europeans speaking English? Or should we be thanking right-wingers and euro-skeptics for the dearth of our native language?

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Well lets look at the historical precedent, Latin, Lingua France (1), and French all continued to be used internationally for culture, politics, trade, science, diplomacy and the like for centuries after the powers backing them ceased to be major powers (bear in mind that Latin is still studied in many European schools today sometimes compulsarily). For example I wrote my dissertation on the Anglo-Iranian oil dispute and I had trouble finding treaties etc. in English if they were written at any point before the 1920s. French was still considered the global diplomatic language not because of France´s power and influence but because of a general sence of inertia.

And theres many things that English has in its favour as a global language. For one thing universities all around the world are offering tuition in English because rankings are determined by how much they publish and how many people read these publications. So if you publish in Icelandic you are unlikely to get very far. The fact that even some French universities are making this transition (somewhat controversially as you would imagine) shows you how far this process has gone. Its also true to say that English is often used as a lingua France within Europe not because of the UK´s influence but simply because its practical. If a Finn talks to a Slovenian what language are they going to speak? You see this even in the European parliament where many MEP´s from non English speaking countries speak in English soley for convinience. This is something thats likely to outlive the political situation (not to mention that Malta and Ireland still speak English)

A good example would be the situation in a number of post Soviet states. I spent a few days in Tiblisi with an Azeri and we could get around fine just using his (fluent) Russian, as I´m sure we could have done in Turkmenistan or Armenia (not that Armenia would be willing to have us). The Soviet union has been gone for decades but its influence persists linguistically just because its practical.

Not to mention little things like the compulsory use of English in aviation across the world and various little things that all add up.

(1) contrary to popular belief Lingua Franca was not French but a mix of Frankish and a number of other languages used by mediterrian saliors.

brothern said:

One of the stranger consequences of the Brexit is the now greater threat that the English language will lose its status as a world lingua franca language. With the UK's former membership in the EU, its strategic value to the European community (e.g., UN Security Council Seat) and its contribution of the financial capital that is London to the European; English needed to be recognized by the EU as an official language. In fact Europeans have long seen English as a necessarily language to learn in order to communicate with their fellow Europeans.

However yesterday changed that incentive for nearly 700 million people. Brexit ensures that EU loses almost all of its native English speakers, and that nearly all European business, government, and culture shifts to what was formerly a runner-up language: German. Think of it. German was already the native language of a plurality of Europeans. But now Europe's financial capital is Frankfurt. It's strongest economy is Germany. Britain's ability to exert sway in Europe's governments has totally vanished, while Merkel and her government's power grew simply due to her counterparts' self-injury. The whole culture simply becomes Continental.

Certainly it'll take years to seem the demographics shift, but the incentive for hundreds of millions of people to learn English evaporated overnight.

So that leaves the question -- Will 380 million Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders be enough to keep 700 million Europeans speaking English? Or should we be thanking right-wingers and euro-skeptics for the dearth of our native language?

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We could always learn another language, Captain Adverse excepted. Don't forget, English is the mother tongue of our former overseers against whom we had to fight a war for freedom.

Since the end of WWII, English has been, and will remain, the international language of banking (international monetary transactions done in English), business, aviation (all air traffic control in every country around the world is done in English for communications between foreign aircraft and ATC personnel), and there are many, many other examples of how English is the official language of international communications.

The UK voting to exit the EU will have no effect on that.

Captain Adverse said:

Hmm, I don't think it is England that has been the bulwark of "English" being the lingua franca of the world. I think that ship sailed shortly after World War I, and surely sank after World War II.

It's the fact that the U.S.A.'s primary language was "American English" that has kept it as the language of diplomacy up till now.

The problem as I see it is the current devaluation of English in our own nation with this insane push for language diversity.

People coming to the USA and being coddled along in their own languages instead of being compelled by necessity to learn one common tongue.

I shudder to think how our already regionally divided nation may soon become even more balkanized by language diversity.

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I think before we force immigrants to learn English, we need to do a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better job teaching it to people born here. People can't choose the proper your or you're, or the right there, their, they're. "Could of" is commonly used, as is "use to" and I have a friend who insists on "haft to."

You're talking immigrants learning English? We can't even speak it half the time!

rocket88 said:

I think before we force immigrants to learn English, we need to do a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better job teaching it to people born here. People can't choose the proper your or you're, or the right there, their, they're. "Could of" is commonly used, as is "use to" and I have a friend who insists on "haft to."

You're talking immigrants learning English? We can't even speak it half the time!

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Wait, wait.

You'd need to start a new thread on the problems with our entire educational system, and the current social philosophies hobbling it to properly address that issue.

rocket88 said:

i think before we force immigrants to learn english, we need to do a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better job teaching it to people born here. People can't choose the proper your or you're, or the right there, their, they're. "could of" is commonly used, as is "use to" and i have a friend who insists on "haft to."

you're talking immigrants learning english? We can't even speak it half the time!

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Bingo!

brothern said:

One of the stranger consequences of the Brexit is the now greater threat that the English language will lose its status as a world lingua franca language. With the UK's former membership in the EU, its strategic value to the European community (e.g., UN Security Council Seat) and its contribution of the financial capital that is London to the European; English needed to be recognized by the EU as an official language. In fact Europeans have long seen English as a necessarily language to learn in order to communicate with their fellow Europeans.

However yesterday changed that incentive for nearly 700 million people. Brexit ensures that EU loses almost all of its native English speakers, and that nearly all European business, government, and culture shifts to what was formerly a runner-up language: German. Think of it. German was already the native language of a plurality of Europeans. But now Europe's financial capital is Frankfurt. It's strongest economy is Germany. Britain's ability to exert sway in Europe's governments has totally vanished, while Merkel and her government's power grew simply due to her counterparts' self-injury. The whole culture simply becomes Continental.

Certainly it'll take years to seem the demographics shift, but the incentive for hundreds of millions of people to learn English evaporated overnight.

So that leaves the question -- Will 380 million Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders be enough to keep 700 million Europeans speaking English? Or should we be thanking right-wingers and euro-skeptics for the dearth of our native language?

Click to expand...

As it should be. A. Markell has allowed her country to be invaded by Muslims who have no intention of integrating, and who might just as well become a New Nazi party inscribed in unintelligible (to Germans) Arabic. Germany is on the way to social destruction.

brothern said:

One of the stranger consequences of the Brexit is the now greater threat that the English language will lose its status as a world lingua franca language. With the UK's former membership in the EU, its strategic value to the European community (e.g., UN Security Council Seat) and its contribution of the financial capital that is London to the European; English needed to be recognized by the EU as an official language. In fact Europeans have long seen English as a necessarily language to learn in order to communicate with their fellow Europeans.

However yesterday changed that incentive for nearly 700 million people. Brexit ensures that EU loses almost all of its native English speakers, and that nearly all European business, government, and culture shifts to what was formerly a runner-up language: German. Think of it. German was already the native language of a plurality of Europeans. But now Europe's financial capital is Frankfurt. It's strongest economy is Germany. Britain's ability to exert sway in Europe's governments has totally vanished, while Merkel and her government's power grew simply due to her counterparts' self-injury. The whole culture simply becomes Continental.

Certainly it'll take years to seem the demographics shift, but the incentive for hundreds of millions of people to learn English evaporated overnight.

So that leaves the question -- Will 380 million Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders be enough to keep 700 million Europeans speaking English? Or should we be thanking right-wingers and euro-skeptics for the dearth of our native language?

Click to expand...

I think that English will remain the standard international language. The exit won't change that.

brothern said:

One of the stranger consequences of the Brexit is the now greater threat that the English language will lose its status as a world lingua franca language. With the UK's former membership in the EU, its strategic value to the European community (e.g., UN Security Council Seat) and its contribution of the financial capital that is London to the European; English needed to be recognized by the EU as an official language. In fact Europeans have long seen English as a necessarily language to learn in order to communicate with their fellow Europeans.

However yesterday changed that incentive for nearly 700 million people. Brexit ensures that EU loses almost all of its native English speakers, and that nearly all European business, government, and culture shifts to what was formerly a runner-up language: German. Think of it. German was already the native language of a plurality of Europeans. But now Europe's financial capital is Frankfurt. It's strongest economy is Germany. Britain's ability to exert sway in Europe's governments has totally vanished, while Merkel and her government's power grew simply due to her counterparts' self-injury. The whole culture simply becomes Continental.

Certainly it'll take years to seem the demographics shift, but the incentive for hundreds of millions of people to learn English evaporated overnight.

So that leaves the question -- Will 380 million Americans, Canadians, Australians and New Zealanders be enough to keep 700 million Europeans speaking English? Or should we be thanking right-wingers and euro-skeptics for the dearth of our native language?

Click to expand...

Nonsense. We just get to see the French throwing a hissy fit insisting that all EU business be in French. The Germans will laugh and the Italians will go to dinner.

jet57 said:

I think that English will remain the standard international language. The exit won't change that.

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Tanngrisnir said:

It's pretty much here to stay, as there is no other language that can take it's place for int'l communication for a number of reasons.
There is no rational basis for assuming that German will replace it in Europe or anywhere else.

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Beaudreaux said:

The UK voting to exit the EU will have no effect on that.

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WSJ has an article out on the language policy's potential changes.

English Loses Currency as Europe’s Lingua Franca After ‘Brexit’ Vote

BRUSSELS—The U.K.’s departure from the European Union will erode the status of the English language in EU institutions to the benefit of French and German, with the bloc’s executive arm already moving to ditch English from some of its official communications.

Even before the British government has officially lodged its intention to leave, the European Commission has made a symbolic decision to focus on French and German in statements to the press and speeches, according to two EU officials.

...

In his speech to the European Parliament Tuesday, Commission President Jean-Claude Juncker is expected to address lawmakers in just French and German, the two officials said. That breaks with a long tradition of trilingual speeches by Mr. Juncker.

“English will remain a working language, but of course there is a symbolic move there,” said the first official.

The commission move is unlikely to push English out as the lingua franca of the EU. English will remain one of the bloc’s official languages, since it’s also spoken in Ireland and Malta, and it will remain the working language of the European Central Bank. It is also the main language used by the many non-native English speakers in Brussels, including EU officials, lawyers, lobbyists and journalists.

But some officials working in the institutions worry that the departure of the U.K., and the expected sidelining of British EU officials, will mean more meetings will be held in French or German—excluding those who have focused on English as their main foreign language. Others pointed out that focusing on French and German will further entrench the power of Berlin and Paris, excluding countries in the EU’s north, south and east that are already losing a political ally.

English Loses Currency as Europe?s Lingua Franca After ?Brexit? Vote - WSJ

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BitterPill said:

We could always learn another language, Captain Adverse excepted. Don't forget, English is the mother tongue of our former overseers against whom we had to fight a war for freedom.

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I have no issue with that. I personally would be fine if the world started speaking German.

brothern said:

WSJ has an article out on the language policy's potential changes.




I have no issue with that. I personally would be fine if the world started speaking German.

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Didn't our parents and in some cases grandparents fight a war to prevent, among other things, just that?

Beaudreaux said:

Didn't our parents and in some cases grandparents fight a war to prevent, among other things, just that?

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I guess. However what's anyone supposed to do when Germany turns itself around, becomes a stabilizing force for Europe and a major economic powerhouse and then accepts the challenge of welcoming and integrating nearly a million refugees? The German language had the potential to grow quite a bit over the next few decades.

Anyway I was referring to the fact that I've studied German.

brothern said:

I have no issue with that. I personally would be fine if the world started speaking German.

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A better bet might be Chinese which it is the most spoken language in the world. English is second, but only because so many people learn it as a second language. Third is Spanish which I speak, so I'd go with español* for that selfish reason.

* Spanish

BitterPill said:

A better bet might be Chinese which it is the most spoken language in the world. English is second, but only because so many people learn it as a second language. Third is Spanish which I speak, so I'd go with español* for that selfish reason.

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Chinese will never become a global language. :neutral: As a second language Chinese is one of the most, if not the most, difficult to learn. It's a tonal language that shares no linguistic roots (read "similarities") with the Indo-European languages (45% of the world's pop). Which means that Chinese will never be freely adapted as a second language by any large swaths of people, and would have to see its use grow by birth rate alone.

Comparatively there are a number of languages that are not only just straight up easier to learn; but also have the advantage of sharing linguistic roots with other languages which makes language acquisition easier. So assuming we're moving towards a common global language, over the long run that'll give those languages the advantage.

Information technology is dominated by English speakers. It can't be rolled back as the lingua franca.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

BitterPill said:

We could always learn another language, Captain Adverse excepted. Don't forget, English is the mother tongue of our former overseers against whom we had to fight a war for freedom.

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English is also the mother tongue of our current overseers. Whether we fight or not is still at question.

Years ago, around 1998, I met two Frenchmen. One was quite decent. I ran into them one morning and we had coffee and they started talking about the EU. I asked, rather innocently, how quickly the hatreds of WWII would be left behind. One Frenchman got quite irate and told me there was no hatred, never had been.

I said I realized the French were allies of the Nazi's but I thought it was forced. He sulked and the other Frenchman said, "When I have dinner at my grandmother's house the prayer before we eat is still, "Thank you, Lord, for protecting this food from the Germans."

France and Germany were allied during WWII and have been allies in the EU. For the other countries, it's doesn't seem to have been a good fit. I always enjoyed the Italians having dinners and eating foods forbidden by the EU.

It will be interesting to see what will happens. The EU does have one advantage over the U.S. The individual states can secede without facing invasion, occupation, and starvation.

Patrickt said:

English is also the mother tongue of our current overseers. Whether we fight or not is still at question.

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Northern Ireland?

Years ago, around 1998, I met two Frenchmen. One was quite decent. I ran into them one morning and we had coffee and they started talking about the EU. I asked, rather innocently, how quickly the hatreds of WWII would be left behind. One Frenchman got quite irate and told me there was no hatred, never had been.

I said I realized the French were allies of the Nazi's but I thought it was forced. He sulked and the other Frenchman said, "When I have dinner at my grandmother's house the prayer before we eat is still, "Thank you, Lord, for protecting this food from the Germans."

France and Germany were allied during WWII and have been allies in the EU. For the other countries, it's doesn't seem to have been a good fit. I always enjoyed the Italians having dinners and eating foods forbidden by the EU.

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That's an interesting anecdote, and I'm glad you weren't assaulted for claiming France and Germany were allies during WW2.

About those Italian dinners - were they serving arsenic?

It will be interesting to see what will happens. The EU does have one advantage over the U.S. The individual states can secede without facing invasion, occupation, and starvation.

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Doesn't sound like an advantage to me. Sounds more like a recipe for chaos.

BitterPill said:

Northern Ireland?



That's an interesting anecdote, and I'm glad you weren't assaulted for claiming France and Germany were allies during WW2.

About those Italian dinners - were they serving arsenic?



Doesn't sound like an advantage to me. Sounds more like a recipe for chaos.

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No, Pill, the people in Washington DC speak a form of English. You know, it all depends on what the meaning of is, is. It clearly isn't the English American's speak but it is a form of English.

And, Pill, have you ever asked yourself why the French fleet was sunk by the British in WWII?
"Seizing his chance, Hitler offered the French a tempting deal. If they accepted his conditions to end the war, they could continue to administer southern France with no German troops occupying it. And Hitler's terms? The French fleet must return to home ports within weeks, where it would remain under German 'supervision'.The French government agreed. When Churchill learned of this, according to his official biographer, Sir Martin Gilbert, 'he was very frightened. At first he didn't believe it. He felt betrayed'."
Mass murder or a stroke of genius that saved Britain? As closer ties with France are planned, the 'betrayal' they still can't forgive | Daily Mail Online

Within the last few years the French were still demanding reparations.

My uncle landed in North Africa early in the war and the beach was being defended by the French who refused to agree to grant the allies safe landings.

And sorry, Pill. I realize federalists hate to hear it but the Italians were eating forbidden cheeses and sausages and perhaps even cucumbers that were bent. I know a true federalists would consider such heresy the equivalent of arsenic but free men don't. I heard recently that the U.S. wanted to ban Parmesan cheese.

Liberals in the U.S. dream of being like the E.U. on the path to the U.S.S.R.

Assaulted by a Frenchman? Surely, you're joking. I'm seventy-five and being assaulted by a Frenchman is not one of my concerns. I could always scream "Allahu Akbar" and watch them run.

Patrickt said:

No, Pill, the people in Washington DC speak a form of English. You know, it all depends on what the meaning of is, is. It clearly isn't the English American's speak.

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If the English isn't English, then what is it?

And, Pill, have you ever asked yourself why the French fleet was sunk by the British in WWII? Within the last few years the French were still demanding reparations. And, my uncle landed in North Africa early in the war and the beach was being defended by the French who refused to agree to grant the allies safe landings.

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If the French and Nazis were allies, why did the French declare war on Nazi Germany? And after the Nazi conquest of their French 'allies', what remained of the French fleet was largely destroyed to keep it from falling into the hands of the Nazis.

And sorry, Pill. I realize federalists hate to hear it but they were eating forbidden cheeses and sausages and perhaps even cucumbers that were bent. I heard recently that the U.S. wanted to ban Parmesan cheese.

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Sounds like you got that from Breitbart. Frankly, I don't believe a word of it.

Liberals in the U.S. dream of being like the E.U. on the path to the U.S.S.R.

Assaulted by a Frenchman? Surely, you're joking. I'm seventy-five and being assaulted by a Frenchman is not one of my concerns. I could always scream "Allahu Akbar" and watch them run.

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The crazy might suffice.

English will be the world tongue for many further centuries I think.

It was in ancient times quite similar to my home Saxon dialekt and developed in times of the Empire to a very easy to learn language. They throw overboard a lot of grammar and vocabulary to manage their worldwide business. Independet of might, English will stay first. French, German or Chinese are much to complicated to takeover the funktion as world language.

It is an interesting thought... But we should allow for the fact - English language is the easiest to learn. It has more simple grammar than any other european language