Elliot Page, From Shame to Self-Acceptance, in Hollywood’s Glare

Elliot Page, From Shame to Self-Acceptance, in Hollywood’s Glare (NYT, Book Review)​

This is going to be a difficult thread. Although the OP is a book review of Page's memoir, Pageboy, it's really about the whole issue of being trans in an unaccepting world. As the author notes, "Page doesn’t really delve into questions of masculinity, or what it means to be a man, but he brings to life the visceral sense of gender dysphoria, or at least one type of dysphoria: the sense that your body is betraying you. It’s an utterly alien sensation for those who haven’t experienced it".

As an outsider to that experience, I'm not an expert by any means, only a sympathetic human being. I think all of us have experienced moments of "imposter syndrome" - "the condition of feeling anxious and not experiencing success internally, despite being high-performing in external, objective ways." What Is Imposter Syndrome? Learn What it is and 10 Ways to Cope (Betterup) - feeling like "a fraud" or "a phony" and doubting your abilities. “Any day now, they’re going to realize what a mistake they made in hiring me. I bet they’re already wondering.” I felt that way in front of juries, appearing on the stage, and performing solos.

Now, imagine that feeling, turned up to eleven, every day, not only in your waking moments, but in your sleep, too. It doesn't "go away", it just is. It is all-consuming.

It had to be especially acute for Page who won early acclaim for performances in Juno, and Hard Candy, as ferocious and particularly female characters. I was (and am) a huge fan of Ellen Page. "[F]ame didn’t free him to explore his identity; instead it trapped him into a role studios wanted him to play, offscreen as well as on, as an attractive young starlet."

I simply can't take in that kind of constant frisson of displacement, but I think we all need to try.

NWRatCon said:

Elliot Page, From Shame to Self-Acceptance, in Hollywood’s Glare (NYT, Book Review)​

This is going to be a difficult thread. Although the OP is a book review of Page's memoir, Pageboy, it's really about the whole issue of being trans in an unaccepting world. As the author notes, "Page doesn’t really delve into questions of masculinity, or what it means to be a man, but he brings to life the visceral sense of gender dysphoria, or at least one type of dysphoria: the sense that your body is betraying you. It’s an utterly alien sensation for those who haven’t experienced it".

As an outsider to that experience, I'm not an expert by any means, only a sympathetic human being. I think all of us have experienced moments of "imposter syndrome" - "the condition of feeling anxious and not experiencing success internally, despite being high-performing in external, objective ways." What Is Imposter Syndrome? Learn What it is and 10 Ways to Cope (Betterup) - feeling like "a fraud" or "a phony" and doubting your abilities. “Any day now, they’re going to realize what a mistake they made in hiring me. I bet they’re already wondering.” I felt that way in front of juries, appearing on the stage, and performing solos.

Now, imagine that feeling, turned up to eleven, every day, not only in your waking moments, but in your sleep, too. It doesn't "go away", it just is. It is all-consuming.

It had to be especially acute for Page who won early acclaim for performances in Juno, and Hard Candy, as ferocious and particularly female characters. I was (and am) a huge fan of Ellen Page. "[F]ame didn’t free him to explore his identity; instead it trapped him into a role studios wanted him to play, offscreen as well as on, as an attractive young starlet."

I simply can't take in that kind of constant frisson of displacement, but I think we all need to try.

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We enjoyed his performance in Umbrella Academy but I suspected he was going through something during that filming because he appeared very fragile, which was not part of his character.

I can't even imagine what going through this is like for people without financial resources for therapy and other medical assistance.

I am referred to by the community as an "ally". I'm not gay, or transgendered, or any other subset of LGBTQ+ (I do have a son who is, though). Nonetheless, as a lifelong civil libertarian (only card-carrying since leaving government service), and a passionate human being, I am committed to acceptance of fellow humans for who they are, not whom I expect them to be. I don't get to make that decision.

I view it as my responsibility to raise issues of my brethren who, because of their position in society, are inhibited from doing so on their own behalf. There are an estimated 1.4 million American adults who identify as transgendered. That's .06 of our population, a very small minority.

Our system of government, our society, is predicated on protecting minorities. We often forget that or forego it in pursuit of other priorities, especially political ones. I take it very seriously. I try to live that conviction, if imperfectly.

Which brings me to why I started this thread. Although having very publicly revealed his transition process, as have many others, Elliot Page is still entitled to personal possession of his experience. I think it is very important for those of us who are not faced with such incredible difficulties to exercise our humanity by trying to understand those who do. Elliot Page's experience, I think, provides a relatable example of those difficulties. That's why I've highlighted it with this thread.

NWRatCon said:

I am referred to by the community as an "ally". I'm not gay, or transgendered, or any other subset of LGBTQ+ (I do have a son who is, though). Nonetheless, as a lifelong civil libertarian (only card-carrying since leaving government service), and a passionate human being, I am committed to acceptance of fellow humans for who they are, not whom I expect them to be. I don't get to make that decision.

I view it as my responsibility to raise issues of my brethren who, because of their position in society, are inhibited from doing so on their own behalf. There are an estimated 1.4 million American adults who identify as transgendered. That's .06 of our population, a very small minority.

Our system of government, our society, is predicated on protecting minorities. We often forget that or forego it in pursuit of other priorities, especially political ones. I take it very seriously. I try to live that conviction, if imperfectly.

Which brings me to why I started this thread. Although having very publicly revealed his transition process, as have many others, Elliot Page is still entitled to personal possession of his experience. I think it is very important for those of us who are not faced with such incredible difficulties to exercise our humanity by trying to understand those who do. Elliot Page's experience, I think, provides a relatable example of those difficulties. That's why I've highlighted it with this thread.

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Thank you.

I just really hope that this wasn't in response to sexual abuse and Hollywood treating them terrible because of being a woman. Their story of psychosis just before being prescribed gender reassignment surgery was pretty disturbing. And now whenever I look at them, I see a person who is "not right." I don't mean because of wanting to appear male but because they look really damaged. Their facial expressions, posture, everything. They look worse than ever.

Northern Light said:

I just really hope that this wasn't in response to sexual abuse and Hollywood treating them terrible because of being a woman. Their story of psychosis just before being prescribed gender reassignment surgery was pretty disturbing. And now whenever I look at them, I see a person who is "not right." I don't mean because of wanting to appear male but because they look really damaged. Their facial expressions, posture, everything. They look worse than ever.

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He/his.

NWRatCon said:

He/his.

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Google says he/they.

Not that I care.

Northern Light said:

Google says he/they.

Not that I care.

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Of course not. Kinda the point, isn't it.

NWRatCon said:

Of course not. Kinda the point, isn't it.

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You've made no point at all yet seem to think you are an authority on this matter. We're talking about a celebrity that neither of us personally knows. Get over it.

NWRatCon said:

Elliot Page, From Shame to Self-Acceptance, in Hollywood’s Glare (NYT, Book Review)​

This is going to be a difficult thread. Although the OP is a book review of Page's memoir, Pageboy, it's really about the whole issue of being trans in an unaccepting world. As the author notes, "Page doesn’t really delve into questions of masculinity, or what it means to be a man, but he brings to life the visceral sense of gender dysphoria, or at least one type of dysphoria: the sense that your body is betraying you. It’s an utterly alien sensation for those who haven’t experienced it".

As an outsider to that experience, I'm not an expert by any means, only a sympathetic human being. I think all of us have experienced moments of "imposter syndrome" - "the condition of feeling anxious and not experiencing success internally, despite being high-performing in external, objective ways." What Is Imposter Syndrome? Learn What it is and 10 Ways to Cope (Betterup) - feeling like "a fraud" or "a phony" and doubting your abilities. “Any day now, they’re going to realize what a mistake they made in hiring me. I bet they’re already wondering.” I felt that way in front of juries, appearing on the stage, and performing solos.

Now, imagine that feeling, turned up to eleven, every day, not only in your waking moments, but in your sleep, too. It doesn't "go away", it just is. It is all-consuming.

It had to be especially acute for Page who won early acclaim for performances in Juno, and Hard Candy, as ferocious and particularly female characters. I was (and am) a huge fan of Ellen Page. "[F]ame didn’t free him to explore his identity; instead it trapped him into a role studios wanted him to play, offscreen as well as on, as an attractive young starlet."

I simply can't take in that kind of constant frisson of displacement, but I think we all need to try.

Click to expand...

I think a lot of this gets mired in politics and people pick a side based on what their political orthodoxy tells them to.

I think this is a disservice to humanity. Where is I can't fully understand what someone like Elliott page goes through I can understand it a little bit. I've dealt with imposter syndrome in the same sort of way. Feeling like you're lying to everyone about who you are can be isolating.

I think of these are the important things we need to empathize with everybody on regardless of what side you take on this issue.

And regardless of what you think about someone like Elliott page. Pages just one person and there are other people that deal with this.

There are some people that won't have it no matter what and these are the people you need to forget about because you can't change them. But I think there's far more people that you can get to be that's necessarily sympathetic but agreeable.

So many times when we're discussing transgender people it feels like a lecture from both sides. And this doesn't seem like that to me. Maybe I'm more empathetic than most people.

I can get a little more respect for Elliott page for this as I'm sure it's very difficult not to lecture people. I don't doubt for a minute that he has struggled with this there are people that I think are transgenders I don't think Elliott page is one of them. He essentially gave up a Hollywood career. I think this is an example that gender dysphoria is very real for some people.

Northern Light said:

You've made no point at all yet seem to think you are an authority on this matter. We're talking about a celebrity that neither of us personally knows. Get over it.

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Yeah a lot of this sort of thing comes off as lecturing. I don't mind hearing Elliot Paige talk about his experience because that's his experience. But it's the people who don't experience that that tried to lecture others about it that I think gets people frustrated.

I'm not sure that this is true but it feels like it is sometimes they're not lecturing to be empathetic and accepting to other people they're doing it for attaboys. Virtue signaling essentially.

The way to not do this is for them to try and refrain from telling other people they're bad or wrong. Hearing about other people's experiences does tend to humanize the experience hearing other people lecture others about people's experience is tedious.

CLAX1911 said:

Yeah a lot of this sort of thing comes off as lecturing. I don't mind hearing Elliot Paige talk about his experience because that's his experience. But it's the people who don't experience that that tried to lecture others about it that I think gets people frustrated.

I'm not sure that this is true but it feels like it is sometimes they're not lecturing to be empathetic and accepting to other people they're doing it for attaboys. Virtue signaling essentially.

The way to not do this is for them to try and refrain from telling other people they're bad or wrong. Hearing about other people's experiences does tend to humanize the experience hearing other people lecture others about people's experience is tedious.

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I agree. Unfortunately, left wing authoritarianism + virtue signalling has made these conversations so impossible to have due to all of the obstructionism. And part of me wonders if maybe that's the whole point. The discourse at its core its incredibly shallow and highly reactive to critique.

Northern Light said:

I agree. Unfortunately, left wing authoritarianism + virtue signalling has made these conversations so impossible to have due to all of the obstructionism. And part of me wonders if maybe that's the whole point. The discourse at its core its incredibly shallow and highly reactive to critique.

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The thing is it's not really even about the trans people a lot of the times it's about having something to attack an opponent with. And that's the primary motivation.

Northern Light said:

You've made no point at all yet seem to think you are an authority on this matter. We're talking about a celebrity that neither of us personally knows. Get over it.

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If you don't care, you are welcome to quit posting. This is supposed to be a serious thread about a serious subject. Or, do you just prefer to troll?

As soon as someone injects a thread with "left wing authoritarianism + virtue signalling" it is readily apparent that they aren't serious about the subject, but just want to "get mired in politics and pick a side based on what their political orthodoxy".

That is not what this thread is intended to be about.

NWRatCon said:

Why I started this thread. Although having very publicly revealed his transition process, as have many others, Elliot Page is still entitled to personal possession of his experience. I think it is very important for those of us who are not faced with such incredible difficulties to exercise our humanity by trying to understand those who do. Elliot Page's experience, I think, provides a relatable example of those difficulties. That's why I've highlighted it with this thread.

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CLAX1911 said:

Hearing about other people's experiences does tend to humanize the experience

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Indicates you understand the purpose of the thread.

NWRatCon said:

He/his.

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Thank you for correcting that insult.

Northern Light said:

You've made no point at all yet seem to think you are an authority on this matter. We're talking about a celebrity that neither of us personally knows. Get over it.

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Are you claiming to be an authority on the matter?

NWRatCon said:

If you don't care, you are welcome to quit posting. This is supposed to be a serious thread about a serious subject. Or, do you just prefer to troll?

As soon as someone injects a thread with "left wing authoritarianism + virtue signalling" it is readily apparent that they aren't serious about the subject, but just want to "get mired in politics and pick a side based on what their political orthodoxy".

That is not what this thread is intended to be about.

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No it isn't that they aren't serious it's that they are making a criticism. Whether it's valid or not it's a different topic. But I do believe politics have been brought into this. It's not just the left or the right.

Northern Light said:

I agree. Unfortunately, left wing authoritarianism + virtue signalling has made these conversations so impossible to have due to all of the obstructionism. And part of me wonders if maybe that's the whole point. The discourse at its core its incredibly shallow and highly reactive to critique.

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There is no "left-wing authoritarianism" going on.

What is happening is society is progressing and your ignorance is apparently not keeping up so you're whining about it, so instead of trusting that some individual is making the best decisions for themselves you're making idiotic assumptions not borne out by any evidence whatsoever and then getting mad when you're called out on it.

I think all of us have had the experience of "not fitting in", whether at a party, in an unfamiliar place - especially if foreign languages are involved - or being the "odd one out" in another way, because of race, or ethnicity, or gender, or some other identifying characteristic. There are certain characteristics that all of us are born with, which is how we tend to categorize people into "minorities" or "majorities". We don't have any agency over the conditions of our births, and often, much of our lives.

The more anxiety-producing experience of "imposter syndrome" was the closest common analogy I could think of for the extreme feeling of "dysphoria" that defines "gender dysphoria" - which literally means "a state of feeling very unhappy, uneasy, or dissatisfied with their gender." I think, because it is relatively rare in any population, it is very easy for those who don't have that particular condition, to minimize it, or even dismiss it entirely.

But, for those who are going through that experience, it can be so anxiety-producing as to cause all kinds of alternate coping processes, from self-medication to self harm. That anxiety is exacerbated when common courtesies are deliberately ignored, and demeaning or dismissive behavior is engaged in - particularly if it is given public approbation.

We are clearly in another era of such public scorn, as several jurisdiction are engage in singling out the condition for particular, and often unconstitutional, treatment. But this thread is not about that, although that behavior does exacerbate the situation.

This thread, I reiterate, is an effort to discuss the personal toll living with gender dysphoria takes on individuals, their families and loved ones, and, frankly, the society they are part of.

CLAX1911 said:

No it isn't that they aren't serious it's that they are making a criticism. Whether it's valid or not it's a different topic. But I do believe politics have been brought into this. It's not just the left or the right.

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Alright, who injected those politics? And why? What is the basis of that criticism?

NWRatCon said:

Alright, who injected those politics? And why? What is the basis of that criticism?

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I don't know who did it in the best thing is try not to focus on it.

Criticism typically comes from people who disagree and it's about why they disagree I'm not saying it's right or wrong I'm just saying that it is.

CLAX1911 said:

I don't know who did it in the best thing is try not to focus on it.

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I agree it is best not to focus on it, but we all know - including you - who injected into this conversation (it wasn't you).

CLAX1911 said:

Criticism typically comes from people who disagree and it's about why they disagree I'm not saying it's right or wrong I'm just saying that it is.

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Deflection comes from those who disagree, but don't have an argument. Nothing in my posts was political or invited such crap into the discussion. I think that is obvious. That's why this thread was not started in a politics forum. With that, I think we can let that deflection die and get back to the actual topic.

NWRatCon said:

I agree it is best not to focus on it, but we all know - including you - who injected into this conversation (it wasn't you).

Deflection comes from those who disagree, but don't have an argument. Nothing in my posts was political or invited such crap into the discussion. I think that is obvious. That's why this thread was not started in a politics forum. With that, I think we can let that deflection die and get back to the actual topic.

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Criticism isn't always deflection can be but not always.

StillBallin75 said:

There is no "left-wing authoritarianism" going on.

What is happening is society is progressing and your ignorance is apparently not keeping up so you're whining about it, so instead of trusting that some individual is making the best decisions for themselves you're making idiotic assumptions not borne out by any evidence whatsoever and then getting mad when you're called out on it.

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I trust in an individual's decision when I have a 1 on 1 relationship/interaction with that person and they tell me their preferences.

My problem is third parties who have no relationship to said person who use minorities to virtue signal and authoritatively monitor the speech of fully grown adults.

I don't think Elliot Page looks healthy or happy. Since nobody here knows them personally, it's all speculation anyway.

Nice vitriolic rant though. Do you feel better?

NWRatCon said:

If you don't care, you are welcome to quit posting. This is supposed to be a serious thread about a serious subject. Or, do you just prefer to troll?

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I googled their preferred pronouns and used them, and you're calling me a troll?

I'll speak to the subject as I please.

NWRatCon said:

As soon as someone injects a thread with "left wing authoritarianism + virtue signalling" it is readily apparent that they aren't serious about the subject, but just want to "get mired in politics and pick a side based on what their political orthodoxy".

That is not what this thread is intended to be about.

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You can try to dismiss me all you want but I am very serious about this subject. You are just afraid to properly engage with it, hence the dismissive generalizations and insults. To actually dive in and employ critical thinking and discernment would require an acumen which you don't possess.