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George_Washington said:So, our founding fathers were geniuses who knew the majority of people are stupid? I agree they were smart but some of them had conservative views, nonetheless. I suggest you look at this quote by Alexander Hamilton:
"It is a harsh doctrine that men grow wicked as they improve and enlighten their minds."
I would say that Hamilton, if he were alive today, would probably be in favor of God in our pledge, considering he had advocated the creation of a national Christian church. You obviously don't agree with this concept, which means you've just contradicted yourself. Unless of course you think we should have a national church. :mrgreen:
So you can't lump all of our founding fathers into one category, they all had different views. If they were alive today and debating, there'd be just as much crossfire as there was back then. Considering some of them believed in dueling, it'd probably be much worse than how our politicans behave nowadays...
mpg said:As a conservative/libertarian, I believe in strict separation of church and state, but I don't believe in judicial activism. There's nothing Unconstitutional about kids reciting The Pledge of Allegiance with the phrase "under God", but it's not a good idea to force them to do it.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:They were "conservative", hey? Was that before, or after they created a government the likes of which had never before been seen on the face of the earth?
George_Washington said:. Most of them probably would favor at least some mention of God in our nation government.
George_Washington said:I would say that Hamilton, if he were alive today, would probably be in favor of God in our pledge, considering he had advocated the creation of a national Christian church. You obviously don't agree with this concept, which means you've just contradicted yourself. Unless of course you think we should have a national church.
talloulou said:For many it's not even about the "under God" it's about the pledge in general. They don't want "their" children pledging anything. In my opinion it's really sad. But like I said why not go after the "In God We Trust" money first? Why are our schools the guinea pigs for liberal ideals? You want God completely removed from the government. Then fight for that first.....then go after the schools. Or is it easier to brainwash the youth vs the parents?
tryreading said:The continuing problem is that many, when confronted with the fact that it isn't legal to place their religious items on public property, maintain that some want all sign and mention of religion banned from government. But all we want is to keep religious encroachment out of government. George Bush ends his speeches with 'God bless America.' That is God in the government, and it is perfectly legal. No problem."
talloulou said:Except there is a problem. Christianity is under attack in our country and evidence of this is everywhere. George Bush is often put down for his religious beliefs. A member of the supreme court was stopped on the steps of his church while a reporter tried to bait him into an argument over his religious beliefs. Every year more stores and malls are sporting holiday trees vs Christmas trees. It's total BS. Christians had to protest Lowe's last year because for the first time their tree lot was selling holiday trees vs Christmas trees and it pissed people off. To say that there are not fanatics out there who want to see religion banned all together is wrong. The sick part is that the attack is generally specifically against Christianity or Judism. Anotherwards it's not altogether uncommon to see a liberal bashing christianity while completely supporting the muslim religion. There is something going on there. It's weird. Kind of like the liberals who sport "Save Tibet" bumper stickers but you have to wonder if they really would support us going to war to save Tibet when generally, where I live anyway, many of them are ready to serve Israel up on a platter. It makes no sense.
independent_thinker2002 said:I can't believe that is your example of how you are being persecuted. Unless you, yourself, are a tree, I don't see how you can tell somebody what to call a tree.
talloulou said:I never claimed I was being persecuted. But there is a definite anti-christian tone in the country recently. You don't have to be a christian to notice it. There are definitely people who are seriously confused about the differences between freedom from religion and freedom of religion.
independent_thinker2002 said:I still haven't seen any examples of how christians aren't able to practice their religion in this country.
talloulou said:For many it's not even about the "under God" it's about the pledge in general. They don't want "their" children pledging anything. In my opinion it's really sad. But like I said why not go after the "In God We Trust" money first? Why are our schools the guinea pigs for liberal ideals? You want God completely removed from the government. Then fight for that first.....then go after the schools. Or is it easier to brainwash the youth vs the parents?
Kandahar said:For someone who claims to not be religious, you certainly do an excellent job parroting Pat Robertson's talking points...
talloulou said:Many of the attempts to remove religion from the public square are in my opinion ridiculous. I really see a difference between freedom of religion and freedom from religion. I'm not religious yet public religious displays don't bother me! Why should they? Unless the government is demanding that I recognize God or a certain God or their definition of God why should I care?
talloulou said:Also the "under God" in the pledge is very undefined. God could mean anything in that pledge. There is nothing to suggests the term represents the Christian God? So what's the problem?
talloulou said:And basically my biggest problem with liberals trying to change anything in the schools comes from the knowledge that liberals have already severely damaged our public school system. So yeah I'd like to see them try to change something else....you know like the money....and leave the kids in school alone for a bit so they can actually learn something. If they are really worried about kids why don't they try to change the fact that sooooo many kids can't pass a WASL exam in 11th grade when the test is written at an 8th grade level? See I worry about crap like that vs the undefined vague phrase "under God" in the pledge. But then again I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't mind my child hearing the phrase God or accidently picking up some patriotism for their counrty!
FredFlash said:When you listen to government advice on religion you are rejecting the authority of Christ. If you are going to do that, you might as well just worship in the Temple of Satan.
FVF
talloulou said:I point out the christian bashing because it's so obvious. And I'm not in to seeing anyone bashed because of their relgious beliefs.
talloulou said:Also many of the attempts to remove religion from the public square are in my opinion ridiculous.
talloulou said:I really see a difference between freedom of religion and freedom from religion. I'm not religious yet public religious displays don't bother me! Why should they? Unless the government is demanding that I recognize God or a certain God or their definition of God why should I care?
talloulou said:Also the "under God" in the pledge is very undefined. God could mean anything in that pledge. There is nothing to suggests the term represents the Christian God? So what's the problem?
And basically my biggest problem with liberals trying to change anything in the schools comes from the knowledge that liberals have already severely damaged our public school system. So yeah I'd like to see them try to change something else....you know like the money....and leave the kids in school alone for a bit so they can actually learn something. If they are really worried about kids why don't they try to change the fact that sooooo many kids can't pass a WASL exam in 11th grade when the test is written at an 8th grade level? See I worry about crap like that vs the undefined vague phrase "under God" in the pledge. But then again I'm one of those weirdos who doesn't mind my child hearing the phrase God or accidently picking up some patriotism for their counrty!
Kandahar said:Then what would be the tragedy in taking "Under God" out of the Pledge or "In God We Trust" off the money? That's just being neutral, it's not saying that we are NOT a nation under God or that we DON'T trust in God.
talloulou said:I think the greater tragedy is in the idea that patriotism is a "bad" thing or a dirty word.
talloulou said:I think the pledge of allegiance in the morning is nice and teaches kids respect for their country and pride in their country. Clearly not everyone believes pride and respect for ones country is good.
hipsterdufus said:Where I work, we have a substantial number of educators and students who aren't citizens of the US. You don't have to be a citizen of the US to go to a public school, nor do you have to be one to be an educator at a US school.
Mind you, these students aren't "illegals" - most are children of professionals from India, Pakistan, Russia, China or Japan.
It's very awkward for these non-Americans to be put in a position to "pledge allegiance" to a country that is not their own every morning - god or no god.
Would you like to require those people to pledge their allegiance to the US just because they're here?
Or put it this way, let's say you work for Lenovo (A Chinese Company that bought a big chunk of IBM) Lenovo is moving their headquarters to China. My cousin was asked to move to China for 3 years while Lenovo sets up shop. Would you want his children , or yours, to "pledge allegiance" to the Chinese Government every morning?
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