independent_thinker2002 said:The unity promotion is true to an extent. I highly doubt that reciting these things would solve the division in the country right now though.!
independent_thinker2002 said:And yes, I do know about the tingly feeling associated with the anthem. It is purely an emotional response. I used to get the same thing as a child from the Star Wars theme (I know, it sounds corny, but I was a kid). .!
independent_thinker2002 said:I doubt that an athlete would be weaker for not hearing the anthem before the game though. If you need a song to get jacked up for a game, then perhaps you have issues with where you get you motivation from. BTW, does the anthem give you a feeling of unity with your opposition or just your own team?.!
independent_thinker2002 said:O' Canada? Are you saying that our national anthem is the only one that instills feelings of loyalty and pride in a country. How ethnocentric of you!
star2589 said:there is nothing unconstitutional about the pledge of alligiance. forcing people to say it is another matter.
tryreading said:Didn't imply anything. I bet you every athiest and agnostic in this country uses 2006 on the checks they write.
Also in the Constitution you'll find the words January and March. January comes from Janus, the god of doorways who had two faces, and March from Mars, the God of war, but I don't think the Signers were implying that they believed in these gods, were they?
Columbusite said:Pledges to the state are so Nazi-ish and Soviet-like that we should just not have them. The children of this nation should not be coerced to recite a pledge like a robot. It also does nothing but display false patriotism. What actual values do a pledge instill in children?
Patriotism is a "dirty word" because so many people in this country don't know the first thing about what it means to be American.
A real patriot has no need to wrap themselves in the flag since their actions show that he/she is a patriot, which is more than just being proud of the fact that you were born here.
Pushing for religion in government is not one of those actions and is in fact very anti-American.
talloulou said:Patriotism is a dirty word because liberals have made it that way.
talloulou said:To me it seems ridiculous that liberals are running around trying to get the pledge of allegiance thrown out of schools and what not. Seems to me that consumers have no trouble consuming despite the "In God we Trust" money. Why not go after that first? Seems to me as long as God is on the money than clearly we are a nation under God whether we like it or not.
George_Washington said:My point was just that it was indicative of our history. Also, it might just help to instill morality into young people. If the effects of it are positive, which I believe they are for the most part, I don't see why we should remove it.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Forcing kids to recite an obvious lie is going to instill "morality" in them?
What instills morality in children is observing moral behavior in adults, and having moral behavior expected of them. And explaining morality to them.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Forcing kids to recite an obvious lie is going to instill "morality" in them?
What instills morality in children is observing moral behavior in adults, and having moral behavior expected of them. And explaining morality to them.
Morality cannot be explained in terms of religion.
Kandahar said:And why shouldn't it be a dirty word? What exactly is the virtue of patriotism?
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Morality cannot be explained in terms of religion.
George_Washington said:You may think it's a lie but many people don't. The bottom line is, is that it doesn't endorse any particular religion. It's just indicative of the history of our nation. Morality can absolutely be expressed in terms of religion. Not just the Christian religion but rather, all the major religions of the world include things about morality. I believe you simply choose not to acknowledge this fact based on your own obvious prejudices towards Christianity and religion in general, of which you have expressed so thoroughly on this forum time and time again.
talloulou said:I'm not religious personally but this line is a load of horse manure. Morality certainly can be expressed and explained in terms of religions and many many people use religion as their moral guide. It serves some very well and makes others crazy. But I found your statement quite frankly....absurd.
Saboteur said:It doesn't matter what words or phrases are in the pledge of alligance. What matters is that students be allowed to refuse to recite the pledge and or leave their classroom if they choose during it.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:No. It's not an opinion, it's a fact. This nation isn't "under God". Never has been. If you think it has ever been under God, place tell us where on the map we can find the print of Her Holy Buttocks.
No religion is moral. All religions base what they claim is morality on threat of devine wrath rather than on any recognition of other persons as equals. Christianity is one of the worst offenders, second in this only to the dog-do religion of Islam.
talloulou said:Some would argue that insisting God be pushed completely out of sight is anti-American. I'm not religious but I'd agree with those people. It's freedom of religion not freedom from religion.
George_Washington said:It doesn't change the fact that America has had a history of theism in her mists.
George_Washington said:You can use those crude analogies but they don't really accomplish much. The vast majority of our founding fathers were theists, not to mention that the vast majority of our Presidents and politicans have been religious. This also not mentioning the fact that many of our country's bright people in the arts, sciences, and business have been religious: Protestant, Catholic, Jewish, etc. So is religion is definitely a historical aspect of our country.
George_Washington said:Again, your personal opinions on religion don't amount to a hill of beans, Elsa. It doesn't change the fact that America has had a history of theism in her mists.
Columbusite said:I don't see anyone here denying the role religion has played in our history, but it played that role because of the religious freedom guaranteed by our secular AND religion friendly Constitution. You're not going to have that continue if you mix religion into the government for which there is no good reason to do and to advocate this is to go against our Constitution and the USA.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Again, it doesn't matter what the history of the country is. The fact is that the affirmation in the Pledge is not only not provable, significant numbers of Americans think it's hooey.
George_Washington said:But is there a difference between government endorsing or establishing a religion over its, people rather than itself as a seperate entity? I think there might be.
Scarecrow Akhbar said:Maybe, except in this country the government is the people. That the formal trappings of government are a bunch of seats in Washington, a few buildings here and there doesn't alter the fact that the government of this nation resides in the people themselves. So when the government speaks, it speaks for all of us.
Why is it in there? Because the people with the delusion managed to force it in to remind the whole world that some people in this nation aren't only deluded, but they're bad poets, too. That's it. And for the last few weeks, I've had to deal with my daughter telling me that her first grade buddies, all of whom obviously suffer some form of criminal brainwashing form of child abuse, won't play with her because she hasn't also been simonized.
And the lie in the Furniture Polish of Allegiance adds to the problem.
You guys can have your delusion, you know, but the very purpose of the First Amendment is to restrict you guys from spreading that delusion with the power of the federal government.
Save the little girls, restore honesty to the Furniture Polish of Allegiance, get rid of the lie about "under god".
George_Washington said:So, our government is solely in the hands of the people, in the sense that new laws should be passed at the whim of the majority's opinion? So what if the majority of people think the pledge should stay?
George_Washington said:While I do feel sympathy for your daughter, I can't help but think your analogy is kind of weak. Kids get made fun of and excluded from groups far apart from religion. When I was a kid, I knew people who weren't very religious, who committed crimes. What does that mean? Does that mean that atheism is the root cause of children's school problems?
Scarecrow Akhbar said:You know, that's the most amazing thing about this country. It was founded by geniuses who knew that the majority is a mindless boob that gives sour milk almost all the time, so they created a document that placed limits on what the majority could do...and...bear with me, this is the most incredible thing you've ever seen... the first changes they made to this constitution thingy specifically states that the congress, which is the gang the majority elects every couple of years to work for them, simply CANNOT pass laws like the one they passed making the majority's delusion a law of the land.
Didn't I tell you those people way back then were absolute geniuses? Makes me wonder why THEY never drafted a flag-selling poem and then made it the official rote statement of allegiance to the country. Truly a mystery, I must say.
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