Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?

AlbqOwl · Oct 5, 2005

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
Why is that obvious?

I mean, outside of the fact that "rights" are a legal fiction with no physical reality, there's no indication that the word "blessings" had any religious significance at all.

Are you really one that denies the entire foundation and history of this country? You are so jaded that you accept none of the history, culture, vision, and purpose of the founders and all the people who have learned from them? Do you believe in none of it? I have often wondered why those who seem to believe in nothing give a flying fig what words are in the Pledge?

Caine · Oct 5, 2005

AlbqOwl said:
I went to that site because that site was the first one that popped up when I searched for the state preambles list. The list is what it is despite whatever site it is posted on. The Preambles have everything to do with our national, political, and cultural history which is the whole foundation of the the 'under God' defense.

And I have consistently said that the God of the Pledge is not a Christian God or a Hindu God or a Jewish God or any specific God. The God of the Pledge is the God of our god-given rights that are unalienable.

The Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't a "god".
He is a diety, and Divine Being, a Noodly Master.

I pledge of Allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under our noodly creator, with liberty and justice for all.

Caine · Oct 5, 2005

Navy Pride said:
Excellent post.............The left can whine all they want about God and this country but they will never get rid of him...........Many of our laws are patterned after the laws of God......The 10 Commandments come to mind..........

They want this to be a Godless country and it really torques their jaws that it is not.............

Great, your back, never to disagree with your own personal god..
George W. Bush.

Navy Pride · Oct 5, 2005

Caine said:
Great, your back, never to disagree with your own personal god..
George W. Bush.

Another ridiculous post that adds absolutely nothing to the debate but show your obssesive hate for this President.........There is good professional help out there...Seek it before it to late.....

AlbqOwl · Oct 5, 2005

Navy Pride said:
Excellent post.............The left can whine all they want about God and this country but they will never get rid of him...........Many of our laws are patterned after the laws of God......The 10 Commandments come to mind..........

They want this to be a Godless country and it really torques their jaws that it is not.............

I won't go so far as to say that our laws are patterned after the laws of God. But all of us, even those who profess to believe in no religion of any kind, do derive our basic moral values from our collecive religious heritage, whether Jewish, Christian, pagan, or some other faith system. Because mot Americans descend from a JudeoChristian heritage, American laws do reflect that to a great degree. But it is not whose values that are at stake here but what values.

The God of the Pledge is a reflection of our cultural heritage--the founders believed that unalienable (i.e. God-given rights) are not subject to the authority or discipline of men and are never to be challenged. These unalienable rights are not based on whose values but rather what on values shall be forever sacrosanct.

This is what "under God' in the Pledge means to me. It is what should be taught to every school child and understood by every citizen. It was once taught that way. It should be taught that way again.

AlbqOwl · Oct 5, 2005

Caine said:
The Flying Spaghetti Monster isn't a "god".
He is a diety, and Divine Being, a Noodly Master.

I pledge of Allegiance, to the flag, of the United States of America, and to the Republic, for which it stands, one nation, under our noodly creator, with liberty and justice for all.

I would respond to this, but my Momma taught something about only an idiot argues with an......

Caine · Oct 5, 2005

Navy Pride said:
Another ridiculous post that adds absolutely nothing to the debate but show your obssesive hate for this President.........There is good professional help out there...Seek it before it to late.....

Umm...Its not that I hate the President.
Its that you seem to worship him, I have never once seen you NOT in defense of the President on everything.

Caine · Oct 5, 2005

AlbqOwl said:
I would respond to this, but my Momma taught something about only an idiot argues with an......

So now im an Idiot for having a different religion?

http://www.venganza.org

AlbqOwl · Oct 5, 2005

Caine said:
So now im an Idiot for having a different religion?

http://www.venganza.org

I didn't say you were an idiot for having a different religon. Why do you think you're an idiot?

Caine · Oct 5, 2005

AlbqOwl said:
I didn't say you were an idiot for having a different religon. Why do you think you're an idiot?

Oh, were playing THOSE games..
Okay, i'll just ignore you now.

Navy Pride · Oct 5, 2005

Caine said:
Umm...Its not that I hate the President.
Its that you seem to worship him, I have never once seen you NOT in defense of the President on everything.

You might be surprised to hear I almost did not vote for him......I disagree with him on several issues

1. A constitutional Amendment ro ban Gay Marriage

2. The Immigration Issue

3. Government spending in that he has not vetoed one bill that has been on his desk.......

But the democrats gave me no options in the 2004 elections........They nominated in Kerry the biggest liberal in the U.S. Senate.....A man who changed his opinion on the issues on a daily basis....Worse of all though is I believe a man who either lied under oath to the senate and if he told the truth should have been prosecuted for war crimes.......

Scarecrow Akhbar · Oct 5, 2005

AlbqOwl said:
I won't go so far as to say that our laws are patterned after the laws of God. But all of us, even those who profess to believe in no religion of any kind, do derive our basic moral values from our collecive religious heritage, whether Jewish, Christian, pagan, or some other faith system. Because mot Americans descend from a JudeoChristian heritage, American laws do reflect that to a great degree. But it is not whose values that are at stake here but what values.

The God of the Pledge is a reflection of our cultural heritage--the founders believed that unalienable (i.e. God-given rights) are not subject to the authority or discipline of men and are never to be challenged. These unalienable rights are not based on whose values but rather what on values shall be forever sacrosanct.

This is what "under God' in the Pledge means to me. It is what should be taught to every school child and understood by every citizen. It was once taught that way. It should be taught that way again.

My moral values are rooted in humility and arrogance, and extreme rationalism. There's no humility in Christianity, and no rationalism, either.

It doesn't matter what you feel the "God of the Pledge" is, we're not worshipping furniture polish. The fact of the matter is that Congress violated the First Amendment by imposing a religious statement in a legal definition of an oath of fealty.

Caine · Oct 5, 2005

Navy Pride said:
You might be surprised to hear I almost did not vote for him......I disagree with him on several issues

1. A constitutional Amendment ro ban Gay Marriage

2. The Immigration Issue

3. Government spending in that he has not vetoed one bill that has been on his desk.......

But the democrats gave me no options in the 2004 elections........They nominated in Kerry the biggest liberal in the U.S. Senate.....A man who changed his opinion on the issues on a daily basis....Worse of all though is I believe a man who either lied under oath to the senate and if he told the truth should have been prosecuted for war crimes.......

Except for your lentghy liberal hate comments about Kerry (who I don't think was the best Choice either), I seemed to have gained more respect for you, even though you scream liberal more times than I use the word "the".

Caine · Oct 5, 2005

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
My moral values are rooted in humility and arrogance, and extreme rationalism. There's no humility in Christianity, and no rationalism, either.

It doesn't matter what you feel the "God of the Pledge" is, we're not worshipping furniture polish. The fact of the matter is that Congress violated the First Amendment by imposing a religious statement in a legal definition of an oath of fealty.

But didn't you know? The "history, culture, and symbology" of the phrase in the pledge outweight all arguments of its constitutionality!!!!!!!!!!

There has to be a website defending it because of its "historical, cultural, and symbological" value... because ive seen the same argument from 5 diff people on 2 different threads.

AlbqOwl · Oct 5, 2005

Scarecrow Akhbar said:
My moral values are rooted in humility and arrogance, and extreme rationalism. There's no humility in Christianity, and no rationalism, either.

It doesn't matter what you feel the "God of the Pledge" is, we're not worshipping furniture polish. The fact of the matter is that Congress violated the First Amendment by imposing a religious statement in a legal definition of an oath of fealty.

Congress neither violated the First Amendment nor made the Pledge a "legal definition of an oath of fealty". In my opinion the First Amendment protects the 'under God' phrase in the Pledge and the phrase in no way violates it. The one thing the anti-religious types can't seem to understand is that establishment of religion and acknowledgement of religion are two separate things. Establishment of religion and evidence of religious belief are two separate things. Establishment of religion and acknowledging the religious heritage of the nation are separate things. The Founders knew that. I'm hoping a majority of the justices on the SCOTUS know that too.

Caine · Oct 5, 2005

AlbqOwl said:
Congress neither violated the First Amendment nor made the Pledge a "legal definition of an oath of fealty". In my opinion the First Amendment protects the 'under God' phrase in the Pledge and the phrase in no way violates it. The one thing the anti-religious types can't seem to understand is that establishment of religion and acknowledgement of religion are two separate things. Establishment of religion and evidence of religious belief are two separate things. Establishment of religion and acknowledging the religious heritage of the nation are separate things. The Founders knew that. I'm hoping a majority of the justices on the SCOTUS know that too.

Should those who have no religion at all be forced to acknowledge the religious ignorance that caused the unconstitutional addition of the phrase (along with other, justifyable additions) "under God" in the pledge of allegiance to our flag? And by this im speaking of the fear of the "godless communists".

It wasn't there in the beginning, it was added at a period of time in our country when alot of our rights were getting stepped on in the fear of communism, "The House Committee on Un-American Acts" (AKA The Communist Witch-Hunt) is another good example of this. Although it did serve good purposes, it also wrongly punished many people for be-friending closet communists, or social groups.

Caine · Oct 5, 2005

AlbqOwl said:
Establishment of religion and acknowledging the religious heritage of the nation are separate things. The Founders knew that. I'm hoping a majority of the justices on the SCOTUS know that too.

A. The addition of "GOD" in our pledge has NOTHING to do with the founders.

B. The addition of "GOD" in our pledge has nothing to do with acknoledging the heritage of a nation, but more as "We have god and you don't" to the communists of the 1950s.

AlbqOwl · Oct 5, 2005

Caine said:
Should those who have no religion at all be forced to acknowledge the religious ignorance that caused the unconstitutional addition of the phrase (along with other, justifyable additions) "under God" in the pledge of allegiance to our flag? And by this im speaking of the fear of the "godless communists".

It wasn't there in the beginning, it was added at a period of time in our country when alot of our rights were getting stepped on in the fear of communism, "The House Committee on Un-American Acts" (AKA The Communist Witch-Hunt) is another good example of this. Although it did serve good purposes, it also wrongly punished many people for be-friending closet communists, or social groups.

I thought you were going to ignore me.

As I have said this maybe 20 times already in this thread, I'll type this very slowly so nobody can miss it.

There is no requirement that you acknowledge anything. There is no requirement that you recite the Pledge. There is no requirement that you recite or even acknowledge the 'under God' in the Pledge. There is no reward for you if you say it and no consequence for you if you do not. It is purely optional and voluntary. It does not violate any establishment clause of th Constitution. It does not affect you legally, materially, or interfere in any way with your pursuit of happiness. It is not unconstitutional.

The reason the 'under God' phrase was put in the Pledge is absolutely moot 50 years later when most Americans see it is symbolic of our religious heritage.

Why should a small, angry, minority have the right to dictate to a very large majority what words they can or cannot say in a patriotic pledge that is purely voluntary for everybody?

Caine · Oct 5, 2005

AlbqOwl said:
I thought you were going to ignore me.

As I have said this maybe 20 times already in this thread, I'll type this very slowly so nobody can miss it.

There is no requirement that you acknowledge anything. There is no requirement that you recite the Pledge. There is no requirement that you recite or even acknowledge the 'under God' in the Pledge. There is no reward for you if you say it and no consequence for you if you do not. It is purely optional and voluntary. It does not violate any establishment clause of th Constitution. It does not affect you legally, materially, or interfere in any way with your pursuit of happiness. It is not unconstitutional.

The reason the 'under God' phrase was put in the Pledge is absolutely moot 50 years later when most Americans see it is symbolic of our religious heritage.

Why should a small, angry, minority have the right to dictate to a very large majority what words they can or cannot say in a patriotic pledge that is purely voluntary for everybody?

Looks like I will have to show you more articles and the link to them of the crazy religious fanatics who have persecuted others for NOT saying "Under God" or refusing to say it at all.

i'll provide some links in another post

But before I do that, check out this link which has an intresting section in it
http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html

Website said:
Thus it is that when you Pledge Allegiance to the United States Flag, You:

*Promise your loyalty to the Flag itself.
*Promise your loyalty to your own and the other 49 States.
*Promise your loyalty to the Government that unites us all,
Recognizing that we are ONE Nation under God,
That we can not or should not be divided or alone,
And understanding the right to Liberty and Justice belongs to ALL of us.

Alex · Oct 5, 2005

AlbqOwl said:
I will support your petition if you can show how Cosmodaeo is a historical symbol of the Declaration of Independence and the source of inalienable rights guaranteed by the Constitution.

The Declaration Of Independence is just that -- a declaration. It is not a law.

Show me where in the Constitution it states our "inalianable rights" are a source of a god. Show me where a god is anywhere in it. Good luck.

Alex · Oct 5, 2005

AlbqOwl said:
From the Declaration of Independence:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness--

(Note: without the Declaration, there would have been no Constitution.)

"The Creator"? That is a very vauge statement. It could mean a god, or any gods, or a person's mother.

AlbqOwl said:
The Preamble to the US Constitution
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

(Note: The blessings in this context are obviously the unalienable
rights cited in the Declaration.)

Not obvious. You are seriously stretching it here. Still no mention of a god.

AlbqOwl said:
Alabama 1901, Preamble. We the people of the State of Alabama, invoking the favor and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish the following Constitution ...

Alaska 1956, Preamble. We, the people of Alaska, grateful to God and to those who founded our nation and pioneered this great land ...

Arizona 1911, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arizona, grateful to Almighty God for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution...

Arkansas 1874, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Arkansas, grateful to Almighty God for the privilege of choosing our own form of government...

California 1879, Preamble. We, the People of the State of California, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom ..

Colorado 1876, Preamble. We, the people of Colorado, with profound reverence= for the Supreme Ruler of Universe ..

Connecticut 1818, Preamble. The People of Connecticut, acknowledging with gratitude the good Providence of God in permitting them to enjoy ...

Delaware 1897, Preamble. Through Divine Goodness all men have, by nature, the rights of worshipping and serving their Creator according to the dictates of their consciences ..

Florida 1845, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Florida, grateful to Almighty God for our constitutional liberty, establish this Constitution...

Georgia 1777, Preamble. We, the people of Georgia, relying upon protection and guidance of Almighty God, do ordain and establish this Constitution...

Hawaii 1959, Preamble. We, the people of Hawaii, Grateful for Divine Guidance, establish this Constitution ..

Idaho 1889, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Idaho, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings .

Illinois 1870, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Illinois, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors..

Indiana 1851, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Indiana, grateful to Almighty God for the free exercise of the right to chose our form of government

Iowa 1857, Preamble. We, the People of the State of Iowa, grateful to the Supreme Being for the blessings hitherto enjoyed, and feeling our dependence on Him for a continuation of these blessings ... establish this Constitution

Kansas 1859, Preamble. We, the people of Kansas, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious privileges ... establish this Constitution.

Kentucky 1891, Preamble. We, the people of the Commonwealth of grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties...

Louisiana 1921, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Louisiana, grateful to Almighty God for the civil, political and religious liberties we enjoy ..

Maine 1820, Preamble. We the People of Maine .. acknowledging with grateful hearts the goodness of the Sovereign Ruler of the Universe in affording us an opportunity ... and imploring His aid and direction ...

Maryland 1776, Preamble. We, the people of the state of Maryland, grateful to Almighty God or our civil and religious liberty...

Massachusetts 1780, Preamble. We...the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging with grateful hearts, the goodness of the Great Legislator of the Universe... in the course of His Providence, an opportunity .and devoutly imploring His direction ...

Michigan 1908, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Michigan, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of freedom . establish this Constitution

Minnesota, 1857, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Minnesota, grateful to God for our civil and religious liberty, and desiring to perpetuate its blessings

Mississippi 1890, Preamble. We, the people of Mississippi in convention assembled, grateful to Almighty God, and invoking His blessing on our work.

Missouri 1845, Preamble. We, the people of Missouri, with profound reverence for the Supreme Ruler of the Universe, and grateful for His goodness .establish this Constitution ...

Montana 1889, Preamble. We, the people of Montana, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty establish this Constitution ...

Nebraska 1875, Preamble. We, the people, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom .. establish this Constitution.

Nevada 1864, Preamble. We the people of the State of Nevada, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, establish this Constitution ..New Hampshire 1792, Part I. Art. I. Sec. V. Every individual has a natural and unalienable right to worship God according to the dictates of his own conscience..

New Jersey 1844, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New Jersey, grateful to Almighty God for civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing on our endeavors ...

New Mexico 1911, Preamble. We, the People of New Mexico, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of liberty ..

New York 1846, Preamble. We, the people of the State of New York, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, in order to secure its blessings ...

North Carolina 1868, Preamble. We the people of the State of North Carolina, grateful to Almighty God, the Sovereign Ruler of Nations, for our civil, political, and religious liberties, and acknowledging our dependence upon Him for the continuance of those .

North Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of North Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, do ordain...

Ohio 1852, Preamble. We the people of the state of Ohio, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, to secure its blessings and to promote our common .

Oklahoma 1907, Preamble. Invoking the guidance of Almighty God, in order to secure and perpetuate the blessings of liberty . establish this

Oregon 1857, Bill of Rights, Article I. Section 2. All men shall be secure in the Natural right, to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their consciences ...

Pennsylvania 1776, Preamble. We, the people of Pennsylvania, grateful to Almighty God for the blessings of civil and religious liberty, and humbly= invoking His guidance

Rhode Island 1842, Preamble. We the People of the State of Rhode Island grateful to Almighty God for the civil and religious liberty which He hath so long permitted us to enjoy, and looking to Him for a blessing

South Carolina, 1778, Preamble. We, the people of the State of South Carolina grateful to God for our liberties, do ordain and establish this Constitution ...

South Dakota 1889, Preamble. We, the people of South Dakota, grateful to Almighty God for our civil and religious liberties ... establish this

Tennessee 1796, Art. XI.III. That all men have a natural and indefeasible right to worship Almighty God according to the dictates of their conscience...

Texas 1845, Preamble. We the People of the Republic of Texas, acknowledging, with gratitude, the grace and beneficence of God ...

Utah 1896, Preamble. Grateful to Almighty God for life and liberty, we establish this Constitution ..

Vermont 1777, Preamble. Whereas all government ought to ... enable the individuals who compose it to enjoy their natural rights, and other blessings which the Author of Existence has bestowed on man .

Virginia 1776, Bill of Rights, XVI ... Religion, or the Duty which we owe our Creator ... can be directed only by Reason . and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian Forbearance, Love and Charity towards each other...

Washington 1889, Preamble. We the People of the State of Washington, grateful to the Supreme Ruler of the Universe for our liberties, do ordain this Constitution

West Virginia 1872, Preamble. Since through Divine Providence we enjoy the blessings of civil, political and religious liberty, we, the people of West Virginia .. reaffirm our faith in and constant reliance upon God ..

Wisconsin 1848, Preamble. We, the people of Wisconsin, grateful to Almighty God for our freedom, domestic tranquility ..

Wyoming 1890, Preamble. We, the people of the State of Wyoming, grateful to God for our civil, political, and religious liberties ... establish this Constitution

The national Constitution trumps all state Constitutions with the Supremecy Clause.

AlbqOwl · Oct 5, 2005

alex said:
"The Creator"? That is a very vauge statement. It could mean a god, or any gods, or a person's mother.

Very true. The Creator can be anybody's God in this context.

Not obvious. You are seriously stretching it here. Still no mention of a god.

Very obvious for anybody who knows the definition of 'blessings' and who has studied the Federalist papers and other documents testifying to the rationale that went into the Constitution.

The national Constitution trumps all state Constitutions with the Supremecy Clause.

The National Constitution does not trump its own First Amendment. Acknowledging religious belief that exists is in no way a violation of the establishment clause, and to deny such acknowledgment is clearly a violation of the prohibition clause.

Caine · Oct 5, 2005

AlbqOwl said:
Very true. The Creator can be anybody's God in this context.

Very obvious for anybody who knows the definition of 'blessings' and who has studied the Federalist papers and other documents testifying to the rationale that went into the Constitution.

The National Constitution does not trump its own First Amendment. Acknowledging religious belief that exists is in no way a violation of the establishment clause, and to deny such acknowledgment is clearly a violation of the prohibition clause.

I noticed that you failed to comment on the fact that a CREATOR doesn't necessarily have to be a god at all... why is this?

Scarecrow Akhbar · Oct 5, 2005

AlbqOwl said:
Congress neither violated the First Amendment nor made the Pledge a "legal definition of an oath of fealty".

Fealty: Loyalty ALLEGIANCE

Pledge: Promise

Oath: solemn appeal to God to witness the truth of a statement or sacredness of a PROMISE.

Turning the Pledge into a religious statement turns it into enough of an oath to offend the mightiest Jehovah Witness. I'm betting our muslim buddies are unable to utter it, also.

AlbqOwl said:
In my opinion the First Amendment protects the 'under God' phrase in the Pledge and the phrase in no way violates it.

Your opinion is based on the denial of the meaning of a statement in present tense illegally appended to the Pledge of Allegiance.

Your opinion is wrong.

AlbqOwl said:
The one thing the anti-religious types can't seem to understand is that establishment of religion and acknowledgement of religion are two separate things.

I undestand it perfectly. That's why I object to the establishment of religion represented by the present tense statement of "under god" illegally appended to the Pledge of Allegiance.

It's your refusal to acknowledge this truth that fuels this debate. My understanding of the issue is perfect.

AlbqOwl said:
Establishment of religion and evidence of religious belief are two separate things. Establishment of religion and acknowledging the religious heritage of the nation are separate things. The Founders knew that.

I know that. Now, why the Knights of Columbus decided they could write better poetry than Francis Bellamy I won't ask. The fact of the matter is that IF they were trying to imply a religious heritage with their meddling, they failed. The words imply that the nation is currently being sat on by an invisible sky pixie. Right now.

That's what present tenses do. They imply current action or status.

AlbqOwl said:
I'm hoping a majority of the justices on the SCOTUS know that too.

The USSC court in it's time has ruled that negros are property, that seperate but equal is legitimate, that seperate but equal is not legitimate, and that babies can be killed in the womb for no good reason. Certainly your faith in the infallibility of the Court is touching.

You do agree with all those rulings, right?

AlbqOwl · Oct 5, 2005

alex said:
The Declaration Of Independence is just that -- a declaration. It is not a law.

Show me where in the Constitution it states our "inalianable rights" are a source of a god. Show me where a god is anywhere in it. Good luck.

I think you need to brush up on your history as to what the Declaration of Independence was and the force of law that was behind it. It was essentially the first document agreed to by American colonists determined to be free and while technically not a statute, it definitely was considered to have the force of law behind it.

There is no mention of God in the Constitution, other than in the innocuous 'blessings' in the Preamble. But it is no accident the very First Amendment gives me the right to talk about God, think about God, write about God, and worship God. The First Amendment prevents you from doing anything to stop me from doing that. The First Amendment does not allow your government to require you to talk about God, think about God, write about God, or worship God. But neither does the Pledge require you to do that. So, there is nothing unconstitutional about the Pledge.

Do you believe that the phrase "Under God" should be in the Pledge of Allegiance?