I agree. It was a riot and not an insurrection. They only called it an insurrection so they can justify more draconian measures like charging non violent protestors as felonies.As you know, January 6 has been in the news lately, and it looks like Trump will keep his campaign promise to pardon some, most, or all of the J6 defendants once he returns to the Oval Office. I’m curious, do you guys believe J6 was an “insurrection” or not? And do you believe it was right for Democratic states and judges to attempt to kick Trump off the 2024 presidential ballot on the grounds that he violated the 14th Amendment by participating in said “insurrection”?
My personal opinion is that what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021 constituted a riot but NOT an insurrection. To me, a REAL insurrection is what occurred in 1861 when Southern states seceded from the Union, attacked a federal fort, and started a civil war that led to the deaths of over 600k Americans. I also believe that Trump should NOT have been removed from any state ballots in the recent election; my view was that whether or not Trump secured a second term to the presidency should be up to the voters. (FYI: In case you think my opinion on this matter is motivated by persona bias, then know that I didn’t vote for either Trump or Harris in November.)
Mark
It's wasn't an auto coup. If it was can you show any coordination or communication between Trump and the rioters? There wasn't any.Piffle!
A self-coup, also called an autocoup (from Spanish autogolpe) or coup from the top, is a form of coup d'état in which a political leader, having come to power through legal means, stays in power through illegal means through the actions of themselves and/or their supporters.[1] The leader may dissolve or render powerless the national legislature and unlawfully assume extraordinary powers. Other measures may include annulling the nation's constitution, suspending civil courts, and having the head of government assume dictatorial powers.[2][3]
From 1946 to the beginning of 2021, an estimated 148 self-coup attempts took place, 110 in autocracies and 38 in democracies.[4]
View attachment 67547381
Wiki
Did they forget to charge him?Dictionary
Definitions from Oxford Languages · Learn more
INSURRECTION
in·sur·rec·tion
/ˌinsəˈrekSH(ə)n/
- a violent uprising against an authority or government.
Yes
Welcome to the discussions.As you know, January 6 has been in the news lately, and it looks like Trump will keep his campaign promise to pardon some, most, or all of the J6 defendants once he returns to the Oval Office. I’m curious, do you guys believe J6 was an “insurrection” or not? And do you believe it was right for Democratic states and judges to attempt to kick Trump off the 2024 presidential ballot on the grounds that he violated the 14th Amendment by participating in said “insurrection”?
My personal opinion is that what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021 constituted a riot but NOT an insurrection. To me, a REAL insurrection is what occurred in 1861 when Southern states seceded from the Union, attacked a federal fort, and started a civil war that led to the deaths of over 600k Americans. I also believe that Trump should NOT have been removed from any state ballots in the recent election; my view was that whether or not Trump secured a second term to the presidency should be up to the voters. (FYI: In case you think my opinion on this matter is motivated by persona bias, then know that I didn’t vote for either Trump or Harris in November.)
Mark
As you know, January 6 has been in the news lately, and it looks like Trump will keep his campaign promise to pardon some, most, or all of the J6 defendants once he returns to the Oval Office. I’m curious, do you guys believe J6 was an “insurrection” or not? And do you believe it was right for Democratic states and judges to attempt to kick Trump off the 2024 presidential ballot on the grounds that he violated the 14th Amendment by participating in said “insurrection”?
My personal opinion is that what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021 constituted a riot but NOT an insurrection. To me, a REAL insurrection is what occurred in 1861 when Southern states seceded from the Union, attacked a federal fort, and started a civil war that led to the deaths of over 600k Americans. I also believe that Trump should NOT have been removed from any state ballots in the recent election; my view was that whether or not Trump secured a second term to the presidency should be up to the voters. (FYI: In case you think my opinion on this matter is motivated by persona bias, then know that I didn’t vote for either Trump or Harris in November.)
Mark
It doesn't seem the ruling was about the attack on the Capitol. "The court granted absolute immunity to President Trump’s use of the Justice Department for fraudulent purposes. "Didn't the Supreme Court decide that his effort to overturn the election was legal because it was part of his official duties?
Nothing in the 14A requires Congress to determine something is an insurrection. Section 5 merely tells Congress to enact the appropriate laws to implement the previous sections on of which is disallowing people who've committed insurrection from being officers of the US.Section 5 of the 14th states: Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article. During the civil war congress did just that, passed legislation declaring the south in a state of insurrection, signed by President Lincoln. Congress didn’t pass any legislation as required by the 14th declaring 1-6 an insurrection. Nor did any of the 91 federal indictments accurse Trump of insurrection and neither did any of the other state civil cases. Neither did the president, DOJ, Homeland Security, the FBI or any other government agency state 1-6 was an insurrection. In my mind, legally, 1-6 wasn’t an insurrection.
I agree, it was a protest that went wrong and turned into a riot. Were the states wrong in attempting to keep Trump off the ballot using the 14th amendment, certainly. Especially since 1-6 didn’t meet the constitutional legal criteria of being an insurrection. I believe the rioters were guilty of trying to stop congress from conducting their official business and in attempting to overturn a legal and legitimate election, election interference.
I can see where those who thought 1-6 was an insurrection as it was an attempt to stop a duly elected president from taking office. An attempt to keep a defeated president from being removed from office and stop the peaceful transfer of power. But the bottom line is congress didn’t do its job via legislation to enforce the provisions of the amendment as required by section 5 to 1-6. Congress did their job during the civil war and thereafter passing numerous laws dealing with the south.
Hence, I classify 1-6 as a riot.
Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic.There were literally millions of Trump supporters all over the country that did not attack the Capitol. Therefore you cannot call it a riot.
Did congress pass the appropiate legisltaion to make 1-6 an insurection? But as ttwtt78640 pointed out there was a law passed back in 1948 which codified insurrection. But no one in the DOJ charged Trump with insurrection. None of the 91 federal indictments dealt with insurrection. No one in government stated Trump had participated or abetted in insurrection. Not the president, not the DOJ, not Homeland Security, not the FBI, not congress etc.Nothing in the 14A requires Congress to determine something is an insurrection. Section 5 merely tells Congress to enact the appropriate laws to implement the previous sections on of which is disallowing people who've committed insurrection from being officers of the US.
I believe it was an insurrection but, like most things associated with Donald Trump, an exceptionally poor example of one given his and his followers' general incompetence. They wanted to overturn the election and decided to confront the world's most inept police department over it, and still couldn't stick the landing.As you know, January 6 has been in the news lately, and it looks like Trump will keep his campaign promise to pardon some, most, or all of the J6 defendants once he returns to the Oval Office. I’m curious, do you guys believe J6 was an “insurrection” or not? And do you believe it was right for Democratic states and judges to attempt to kick Trump off the 2024 presidential ballot on the grounds that he violated the 14th Amendment by participating in said “insurrection”?
My personal opinion is that what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021 constituted a riot but NOT an insurrection. To me, a REAL insurrection is what occurred in 1861 when Southern states seceded from the Union, attacked a federal fort, and started a civil war that led to the deaths of over 600k Americans. I also believe that Trump should NOT have been removed from any state ballots in the recent election; my view was that whether or not Trump secured a second term to the presidency should be up to the voters. (FYI: In case you think my opinion on this matter is motivated by persona bias, then know that I didn’t vote for either Trump or Harris in November.)
Mark
SCOTUS disagrees.Nothing in the 14A requires Congress to determine something is an insurrection. Section 5 merely tells Congress to enact the appropriate laws to implement the previous sections on of which is disallowing people who've committed insurrection from being officers of the US.
You're right no one was charged under the insurrection statute but a number were charged and convicted under the seditious conspiracy statute.Did congress pass the appropiate legisltaion to make 1-6 an insurection? But as ttwtt78640 pointed out there was a law passed back in 1948 which codified insurrection. But no one in the DOJ charged Trump with insurrection. None of the 91 federal indictments dealt with insurrection. No one in government stated Trump had participated or abetted in insurrection. Not the president, not the DOJ, not Homeland Security, not the FBI, not congress etc.
Which left the actions of 1-6 in the riot category. One can think what one will, but what you and I think has no legal standing. Those who had the legal authority to declare 1-6 an insurrection didn’t. Apparently, those who could have charged Trump and or declared 1-6 an insurrection decided it wasn’t. Hence, riot is what it was.
Where? I'd like to read the opinion.SCOTUS disagrees.
Did congress pass the appropiate legisltaion to make 1-6 an insurection? But as ttwtt78640 pointed out there was a law passed back in 1948 which codified insurrection. But no one in the DOJ charged Trump with insurrection. None of the 91 federal indictments dealt with insurrection. No one in government stated Trump had participated or abetted in insurrection. Not the president, not the DOJ, not Homeland Security, not the FBI, not congress etc.
Which left the actions of 1-6 in the riot category. One can think what one will, but what you and I think has no legal standing. Those who had the legal authority to declare 1-6 an insurrection didn’t. Apparently, those who could have charged Trump and or declared 1-6 an insurrection decided it wasn’t. Hence, riot is what it was.
Where? I'd like to read the opinion.
SCOTUS disagrees.
Was the point of the riot to delay the counting of electoral votes?As you know, January 6 has been in the news lately, and it looks like Trump will keep his campaign promise to pardon some, most, or all of the J6 defendants once he returns to the Oval Office. I’m curious, do you guys believe J6 was an “insurrection” or not? And do you believe it was right for Democratic states and judges to attempt to kick Trump off the 2024 presidential ballot on the grounds that he violated the 14th Amendment by participating in said “insurrection”?
My personal opinion is that what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021 constituted a riot but NOT an insurrection. To me, a REAL insurrection is what occurred in 1861 when Southern states seceded from the Union, attacked a federal fort, and started a civil war that led to the deaths of over 600k Americans. I also believe that Trump should NOT have been removed from any state ballots in the recent election; my view was that whether or not Trump secured a second term to the presidency should be up to the voters. (FYI: In case you think my opinion on this matter is motivated by persona bias, then know that I didn’t vote for either Trump or Harris in November.)
Mark
It's because the plan to overturn the election was to do it by fraud with the GOP in Congress.It was the first gun-free insurrection in history.
You obviously are more familiar with their plans than I.It's because the plan to overturn the election was to do it by fraud with the GOP in Congress.
It certainly wasn't. In fact, I'd go as far as to suggest that more insurrections occurred before hand-held firearms were even invented.It was the first gun-free insurrection in history.
What do you mean but Hunter? The guy Biden swore he wouldn't pardon but did so anyway? You might have stepped into something you need to wipe off your feet.Law and Order!!! Wait oh then yea let em go. But Hunter!!!!!!
As you know, January 6 has been in the news lately, and it looks like Trump will keep his campaign promise to pardon some, most, or all of the J6 defendants once he returns to the Oval Office. I’m curious, do you guys believe J6 was an “insurrection” or not? And do you believe it was right for Democratic states and judges to attempt to kick Trump off the 2024 presidential ballot on the grounds that he violated the 14th Amendment by participating in said “insurrection”?
My personal opinion is that what happened at the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021 constituted a riot but NOT an insurrection. To me, a REAL insurrection is what occurred in 1861 when Southern states seceded from the Union, attacked a federal fort, and started a civil war that led to the deaths of over 600k Americans. I also believe that Trump should NOT have been removed from any state ballots in the recent election; my view was that whether or not Trump secured a second term to the presidency should be up to the voters. (FYI: In case you think my opinion on this matter is motivated by persona bias, then know that I didn’t vote for either Trump or Harris in November.)
Mark
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