Do we need to hire foreign workers because American culture values mediocrity over excellence?

[exoplanet]

Vivek Ramaswamy makes this point in a recent X post

The reason top tech companies often hire foreign-born & first-generation engineers over “native” Americans isn’t because of an innate American IQ deficit (a lazy & wrong explanation). A key part of it comes down to the c-word: culture. Tough questions demand tough answers & if we’re really serious about fixing the problem, we have to confront the TRUTH:

Our American culture has venerated mediocrity over excellence for way too long (at least since the 90s and likely longer). That doesn’t start in college, it starts YOUNG.

A culture that celebrates the prom queen over the math olympiad champ, or the jock over the valedictorian, will not produce the best engineers.

What does everybody think?

I do think some employers need to look around the world and find the best of the best, and not all of those people will be born here. But his rant about American culture is pretty evidence free. For that reason, I disagree.

I do think we value workers and work/life balance more than say, India or China, but quite a bit less than Europe. Our early STEM education is very uneven and kids are/have been definitely getting left behind, but it's not because kids are watching Saved by the Bell. If we want to increase STEM participation, these rants about culture aren't going to do anything.

 

[Phys251]

Vivek Ramaswamy makes this point in a recent X post


What does everybody think?

I do think some employers need to look around the world and find the best of the best, and not all of those people will be born here. But his rant about American culture is pretty evidence free. For that reason, I disagree.

I do think we value workers and work/life balance more than say, India or China, but quite a bit less than Europe. Our early STEM education is very uneven and kids are/have been definitely getting left behind, but it's not because kids are watching Saved by the Bell. If we want to increase STEM participation, these rants about culture aren't going to do anything.

Ramaswamy is a ****ing idiot 99% of the time. I wonder if this isn't the other 1%. He's not wrong about prom queen > math champ, jock > valedictorian, etc.

 

[Mycroft]

Vivek Ramaswamy makes this point in a recent X post


What does everybody think?

I do think some employers need to look around the world and find the best of the best, and not all of those people will be born here. But his rant about American culture is pretty evidence free. For that reason, I disagree.

I do think we value workers and work/life balance more than say, India or China, but quite a bit less than Europe. Our early STEM education is very uneven and kids are/have been definitely getting left behind, but it's not because kids are watching Saved by the Bell. If we want to increase STEM participation, these rants about culture aren't going to do anything.

A culture that celebrates gangsta rap over classical music won't produce the best engineers, either.

So yes...I think the notion of culture having to do with the lack of qualified Americans for high tech jobs has merit.

But...I don't think we should hire foreign workers. I think we should change our own culture.

 

[exoplanet]

Ramaswamy is a ****ing idiot 99% of the time. I wonder if this isn't the other 1%. He's not wrong about prom queen > math champ, jock > valedictorian, etc.

I doubt anyone who buys into those values had a brilliant STEM career ahead of them regardless. If anything we value money over STEM. Business and Management is the most popular degree in the US. If you're looking for a brain drain, I think you would find it there before failed college athletes.

 

[Phys251]

I doubt anyone who buys into those values had a brilliant STEM career ahead of them regardless. If anything we value money over STEM. Business and Management is the most popular degree in the US. If you're looking for a brain drain, I think you would find it there before failed college athletes.

As true as that may be, we need to address why we don't respect people with STEM careers. There is still a stigma against them, both in school and in real life, that they have some sort of untouchable intelligence. Most cultures treat STEM as a skill to be learned, not a gift that is naturally acquired.

 

[ALiberalModerate]

One of the few things Trump is right about is American companies abuse the H1B system to bring in workers at cheaper rates than what they would have to pay Americans. The United States dominates in tech and has for decades. The notion that we lack domestic tech talent is absurd. What these companies do is they create job descriptions that require skills that no one would have. For example, they might combine the skillset of an SRE and Frontend Developer. Those skillsets typically don't go together, and the company doesn't actually want it. However, they work with a recruiter in India that pads resumes with those skills, even though their engineers don't have them. Then, they get those engineers in the United States for much less than they would pay an American for the job and they have what amounts to an indentured servant.

We have the best software engineers on earth in the United States. Not only that, but we also have the hardest working software engineers on earth.

 

[CLAX1911]

Vivek Ramaswamy makes this point in a recent X post


What does everybody think?

I do think some employers need to look around the world and find the best of the best, and not all of those people will be born here. But his rant about American culture is pretty evidence free. For that reason, I disagree.

I do think we value workers and work/life balance more than say, India or China, but quite a bit less than Europe. Our early STEM education is very uneven and kids are/have been definitely getting left behind, but it's not because kids are watching Saved by the Bell. If we want to increase STEM participation, these rants about culture aren't going to do anything.

I really think there is a certain level of snobbery involved. People get this idea that people who work with their hands or workout side or do some sort of physical task or somehow dumber and less intellectual and less sophisticated. Look at our recent election where snobs told everyone that didn't vote the way they wanted them to vote and they were stupid.

If someone gets a bachelor's or a master's degree or even a doctorate they think they're smarter than everyone else. So I've known people with phds that were unemployed. It's kind of a joke going around a few years back PhD means poor hungry doctor.

And like I said unemployed phds that refuse to work unless they get to stroke their ego. Our new one that became destitute I tried to offer him a position in a machine shop more money than he would make in his desired profession. I could have easily figured out how to operate the machinery and he was a mathematics person. But no that was a blue color job and that was beneath him so he starved.

So I think the biggest issue with American workers is ego.

I learned this when I was leaving mechanic school. We had an organization that would come to us looking for people to work on cruise liners this was a dream job for me because it would have been Norway paying me I wasn't tied down at all. I got two interviews for two positions regarding engine room. I talked to the people with the funny accents. And they declined and asked why and there were reluctant to give me an answer but I said I wouldn't be mad no matter what the reason was I just want to know if it's something I can improve upon. And he told names because you're American you're born in America and Americans are cry babies.

 

[BirdinHand]

The notion that we lack domestic tech talent is absurd. What these companies do is they create job descriptions that require skills that no one would have

They don’t even do that.

They simply outsource entire departments and projects to consulting firms such as Tata.

And Tata uses H1 visa holders to fill the seats.


Because it’s cheaper to pay Tata than it is to hire American employees.

 

[BirdinHand]

I really think there is a certain level of snobbery involved. People get this idea that people who work with their hands or workout side or do some sort of physical task or somehow dumber and less intellectual and less sophisticated. Look at our recent election where snobs told everyone that didn't vote the way they wanted them to vote and they were stupid.

If someone gets a bachelor's or a master's degree or even a doctorate they think they're smarter than everyone else. So I've known people with phds that were unemployed. It's kind of a joke going around a few years back PhD means poor hungry doctor.

And like I said unemployed phds that refuse to work unless they get to stroke their ego. Our new one that became destitute I tried to offer him a position in a machine shop more money than he would make in his desired profession. I could have easily figured out how to operate the machinery and he was a mathematics person. But no that was a blue color job and that was beneath him so he starved.

So I think the biggest issue with American workers is ego.

I learned this when I was leaving mechanic school. We had an organization that would come to us looking for people to work on cruise liners this was a dream job for me because it would have been Norway paying me I wasn't tied down at all. I got two interviews for two positions regarding engine room. I talked to the people with the funny accents. And they declined and asked why and there were reluctant to give me an answer but I said I wouldn't be mad no matter what the reason was I just want to know if it's something I can improve upon. And he told names because you're American you're born in America and Americans are cry babies.

This rant has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

Mechanics aren’t software engineers.

And no one is handing out H1 visas to thousands upon thousands of mechanics a year in the US.

I get wanting your personal experience to be relevant, but in this topic it is not.

US companies utilize H1 visas for cheaper labor.


No more. No less.

And frankly, most US IT leadership knows that the vast majority of H1 labor is LESS skilled than US talent. So they put US talent in critical roles and leading the teams and as QA over the teams whenever possible.

 

[Helix]

They hire H1Bs to get cheaper skilled workers who can't quit without getting deported.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Largely my experience with H1B workers is that they are no better than other engineers, but are willing to work nights, weekends, etc while staying a perpetual temp.

It’s a scam as far as I have seen.

 

[BirdinHand]

The last major project I ran where Tata was involved?

They were onboarding H1 visa holding Java engineers at like $55/hr corp to corp (meaning…that’s the wage being paid from one sub shop to another for the contractor…not even the rate that the actual human doing the work is getting)

A US citizen or GC holding software engineer was getting - TO THEM - no less than $70/hr either 1099 if they had their own firm or $65/hr W2 if they did not.

This has nothing to do with a lack of talent…it has to do with companies wanting to pay lower labor costs.

And I’d put a US citizen or a GC holder up against most H1 visa holders and take a bet that the US citizen/GC holder is BETTER technically than the H1 holder at least 8 out of 10 times.

 

[CLAX1911]

This rant has absolutely nothing to do with the topic.

What's your opinion.

Mechanics aren’t software engineers.

Yeah mechanic skills are more in demand. This is because of how bad engineers are at their job.

And no one is handing out H1 visas to thousands upon thousands of mechanics a year in the US.

This is about taxes not really filling skill deficiency.

I get wanting your personal experience to be relevant, but in this topic it is not.

That's your opinion you're exemplifying the snobbery I was talking about so it's clear that it's relevant.

If you don't think it is you don't have to read or respond to my posts.

US companies utilize H1 visas for cheaper labor.

The US does stuff to increase its tax base that's it. If the government was the slightest bit competent we would need to be hanging out visas to anybody.

So pointing out that the government is a blunderest group of morons doesn't help your case.

No more. No less.

The government is always the wrench in the works.

And frankly, most US IT leadership knows that the vast majority of H1 labor is LESS skilled than US talent.

Us talent like engineers who are so terrible at their job mechanics have gainful employment.

So they put US talent in critical roles and leading the teams and as QA over the teams whenever possible.

No they put people in roles of leadership that conform. Wasting life and treasure getting The hazing ritual that is a University degree is more about conformity than intelligence.

If you don't think that crap makes you smart I'm going to bridge for sale are you interested?

 

[exoplanet]

As true as that may be, we need to address why we don't respect people with STEM careers. There is still a stigma against them, both in school and in real life, that they have some sort of untouchable intelligence. Most cultures treat STEM as a skill to be learned, not a gift that is naturally acquired.

I just think there is a stigma towards people who don't have great social skills and those people happen to be attracted to STEM. I don't think any amount of cultural value around STEM is going to make up for that.

If Wikipedia is to be believed, only about 20% of China's population even has a post secondary degree (I'm mentioning China because Vivek did in his quote). Unfortunately for the US, that still means about 280 million college graduates, but that's just sheer population size, not some magical cultural elixir.

 

[BirdinHand]

What's your opinion.

Yeah mechanic skills are more in demand. This is because of how bad engineers are at their job.

This is about taxes not really filling skill deficiency.

That's your opinion you're exemplifying the snobbery I was talking about so it's clear that it's relevant.

If you don't think it is you don't have to read or respond to my posts.

The US does stuff to increase its tax base that's it. If the government was the slightest bit competent we would need to be hanging out visas to anybody.

So pointing out that the government is a blunderest group of morons doesn't help your case.

The government is always the wrench in the works.

Us talent like engineers who are so terrible at their job mechanics have gainful employment.

No they put people in roles of leadership that conform. Wasting life and treasure getting The hazing ritual that is a University degree is more about conformity than intelligence.

If you don't think that crap makes you smart I'm going to bridge for sale are you interested?

Again, you display zero knowledge at all on the topic and instead want to attempt to rant, blame the government and just complain.

I spent 20+ years in high tech recruiting and HR.

And frankly, the exploitation of H1 visas and the damage that the over utilization of H1 visas is doing is a large part of the reason that I simply will not work in that industry at all anymore, despite how incredibly lucrative it is.

I want nothing to do with it. Companies now simply make the fiscal decision to engage a 3rd party H1 consulting firm - and never even post jobs for Americans and GC holders to directly apply. And more and more IT work is going that way.

I hung up my hat…and to this day (as in literally earlier this morning) I answer calls and tell people that I’m no longer interested and I’ve changed careers.

 

[CLAX1911]

Again, you display zero knowledge at all on the topic and instead want to attempt to rant, blame the government and just complain.

The government doesn't fall and created this.

I spent 20+ years in high tech recruiting and HR.

HR is another thing that shouldn't exist.

And frankly, the exploitation of H1 visas and the damage that the over utilization of H1 visas is doing is a large part of the reason that I simply will not work in that industry at all anymore, despite how incredibly lucrative it is.

My response to that is good if you're too expensive you shouldn't work in this field. If someone can do it cheaper than you then you are clearly too expensive simple.

I'm more of free market type of guy.

I want nothing to do with it. Companies now simply make the fiscal decision to engage a 3rd party H1 consulting firm - and never even post jobs for Americans and GC holders to directly apply. And more and more IT work is going that way.

Well we have a severe shortage in labor so maybe people who waste their life going to college and probably choose a trade and they're skilled and you probably make more.

I hung up my hat…and to this day (as in literally earlier this morning) I answer calls and tell people that I’m no longer interested and I’ve changed careers.

That's good the thing we need the least of in society is HR. I wish you the best on your new career whatever that may be.

 

[BirdinHand]

HR is another thing that shouldn't exist

Yeah.

Who needs the people that keep companies running by hiring employees and making sure the company is obeying laws, manage employee benefits, write paychecks, administer employee benefit programs, etc.



Your ignorance has been quite aptly demonstrated for the class.

 

[BirdinHand]

I'm more of free market type of guy.

No one believes you nor cares.

 

[reinaert]

A culture that celebrates gangsta rap over classical music won't produce the best engineers, either.

So yes...I think the notion of culture having to do with the lack of qualified Americans for high tech jobs has merit.

But...I don't think we should hire foreign workers. I think we should change our own culture.

Know nothing, snob filters.

 

[devildavid]

Americans just elected a mediocrity. So Trump supporters definitely value mediocrity in their president.

 

[reinaert]

One wonders how much caste plays into Ramaswamy's screed.

 

[devildavid]

A culture that celebrates gangsta rap over classical music won't produce the best engineers, either.

So yes...I think the notion of culture having to do with the lack of qualified Americans for high tech jobs has merit.

But...I don't think we should hire foreign workers. I think we should change our own culture.

What music people enjoy has absolutely nothing to do with having engineering skills. Engineering has zero connection to the arts or culture.

 

[CLAX1911]

No one believes you nor cares.

Opinion noted.

 

[countryboy]

They hire H1Bs to get cheaper skilled workers who can't quit without getting deported.

I'm not so sure about that, I'm sure that does occur to some degree, but often times these companies simply can't find people to fill positions. The old saying, "you can't find good help", is more true today I believe than it has ever been. I'm a tile contractor, and it's certainly true in construction these days. A big part of the problem is a lot of these young kids feel entitled, they don't want to pay their dues doing the grunt work in order to work their way up. They feel they should be making top dollar right off the street without any skill. At least that's been my observation.

 

[reinaert]

I'm not so sure about that, I'm sure that does occur to some degree, but often times these companies simply can't find people to fill positions. The old saying, "you can't find good help", is more true today I believe then it has ever been. I'm a tile contractor, and it's certainly true in construction these days. A big part of the problem is a lot of these young kids feel entitled, they don't want to pay their dues doing the grunt work in order to work their way up. They feel they should be making top dollar right off the street without any skill. At least that's been my observation.