So then non-Jewish American Conservative Evangelicals supposedly have a connection with Israeli Jews, while American Jews don't???
Bibi doesn't even have the support of the majority of Israeli Jews. He simply has a plurality of support. As to connections that American Jews have with Israeli Jews. My Jewish neighbor back in Arkansas parents had been in concentration camps. I had another Jewish friend that had served in the IDF. I think you will find that Jews in America do have ties to Jews in Israel.
I disagree. Although it may be true that most American Jews arrived before the Nazis took power, many experienced plenty of mistreatment and pogroms, others foresaw what was coming with the Nazis, and many left behind relatives that didn't survive the holocaust. In addition there has always been plenty of anti-Jewish bigotry in the USA, especially before the mid-1960s. Many (perhaps most) Jews have been in situations where Christians don't know they are Jewish and start talking freely about their hatred and/or jealousy. There are always a couple of incidents of anti-Jewish violence in the USA every year. That is why nearly all Jews, secular or not, are aware that they are always at risk for being targets of scapegoating. It is an essential part of Jewish culture. For some, those experiences made them strong supporters of a militant Israel. For others, those experiences made them strong opponents of all kinds of hatred, bigotry and discrimination, including against Palestinians. It also should be remembered that the Zionist movement was never popular with all Jews.
People who pay attention and read between the lines know that much of the purported support for Israel among fundamentalist Christians and other militaristic conservatives is really about fulfilling Biblical prophecy for an armageddon, increasing the USA's power over the middle east and general hatred of Muslims.
I didn't say that fundamentalist Christians, militaristic conservatives and Muslim-haters are the only supporters of Israel.
Many people, including myself, support the continued existence of Israel without supporting all of their policies, esp Netanyahu's and others policies concerning the treatment of Palestinians and militaristic expansionism.
I didn't say you said so either. You said that "many" of these 72% (Which is what? 230,000,000 people?) are fundamentalist Christians, militaristic conservatives and Muslim-haters.
Militaristic expansionism is a policy that Israel has never held, and a proof to that would be the withdrawal from the Sinai peninsula in return for peace with Egypt.
Supporting a state's continued existence is meaningless. I support Iran's continued existence, doesn't make me a pro-Iranian does it now. It's only in Israel's relation that such terms somehow become expressions of support. Don't be mistaken, there are more than enough people who couldn't have a bigger wish than to see Israel destroyed, but still.
So claim to be a Jew declaring the holocaust and the 3000 year history of killing Jews is all a lie?
Not for a second do I believe you are a Jew and the notion of a Jewish holocaust denier as you just declared yourself to be is absurd.
Here's a clue. Pretending to be a Jew and then raging that those who talk of the holocaust and oppression of Jews are liars isn't going to work. Your's isn't even a nice try. I suppose next you're claim your black and post about racial discrimination.
I understand all of that. As does any literate person with any historical knowledge at all. However it doesn't change the fact that primarily the reasons why there are not that many Jews in the world is the fact that: 1. They were decimated during the holocaust. And. 2. They don't proselytize. No religion, persecuted or not, will grow very much if it doesn't proselytize and try to convert others.
All that is neither here nor there though because it doesn't change the fact your original premise is predicated on the notion that somehow one of the most educated demographics in America are ignorant of Jewish history.
I don't know what kind of weird savior complex you have, but you aren't defending Jews at all. You're slandering us. The only person in this entire thread whose comments are anti-semetic are yours. You may not deny the holocaust (though how in your mind I said anything to suggest that I do is beyond me), but you twist it to create a narrative that fits nicely with the American right wing's pro-Christian agenda. There is nothing pro-Jew in that narrative. It uses Judaism is a tool to further its control over the Middle East, in favor of a Christian dominant narrative, and to further Christian myths about the end of the world.
No, you don't deny the violence that has befallen Jews, though I imagine you'll deny the anti-semetism that I have had to face in my life, because apparently I wasn't born and raised Jewish if Joko says I wasn't, but you deny any meaning to that suffering. You deny any autonomy and self-determination on the part of Jews if it doesn't fit your narrative. You don't respect people who are different from you enough to acknowledge that they can think differently from you. And you fall back on the trite "no, you!" nonsense that the right wing uses to deflect from its own bigotry.
You do not speak for us. You do not know us. And you'll kindly stop pretending that you do.
You faux indignation is a joke. You claimed that the my pointing out the history of attrocities against Jews is a lie - you a holocaust denier. You now declare Jews are some superpower controlling the entire ME - joining in the historic blame-Jews-for-everything routine. If there is anything to your claim of being Jewish, your messages are the worst form of "the self hating Jew" I've ever read.
...most people who define themselves as "Christian" have no clue about Armageddon....
BMost American Jews are not overly religious. Hell a lot of them are not religious at all.
...
CS: You were once a Reform Rabbi. What brought you into Humanistic Judaism?
JF: Although I explored many ways of being Jewish—from traditional to liberal religious observance—each of them left me flat. I was simply unable to believe that a deity existed and was concerned with our lives. There were, of course, other solutions to my problem to be found in Jewish thought. I became quite taken with the philosophy of Rabbi Mordecai Kaplan, the founder of Reconstructionist Judaism. He taught that the idea of God was no more than a metaphor for the sum of all natural processes that allow humans to become self-fulfilled. For those who find meaning in this idea, it permits them to continue to use traditional God language in Jewish rituals and prayers.
After several years of forwarding this idea I found that I had acquired a pretty serious case of cognitive dissonance. It simply made no sense to me to speak to and about a “God” who doesn’t exist. In 2009 I arranged to attend a colloquium at The Birmingham Temple sponsored by the International Institute for Secular Humanistic Judaism. I soon became involved in the movement.
CS: Pew’s finding that 68% of American Jews believe that there is no conflict between being a nontheist and being Jewish resonates with my experience—I know many Jewish people who do not believe in any gods but are active in Jewish communities, even taking on leadership roles. Why do you think some atheist and agnostic Jewish people participate in Jewish communities that are not explicitly Humanistic Jewish communities? Do you think they should switch to a Humanistic Jewish community? Why or why not?
JF: I think that there is enormous value in belonging to a community of identity. Jews understand themselves in a variety of ways, but as the findings indicate, the majority does not insist upon confining Jewish identity to an expression of faith or belief. And, of course, anyone who chooses to be honest about Jewish history knows that Jews have harbored a very large variety of ideologies and theologies over the millennia. From Pew and other surveys, we know that twenty percent of Jews worldwide are nontheists. It is true that many of them choose to continue participating in theistic congregations and ceremonies. To me this indicates that they value their sense of belonging to the Jewish community but that they do not necessarily expect the community to promote the value of nontheism.
....
Polls show that about 72% of Americans declare themselves pro-Israeli, that's quite a lot of fundamentalist Christians, militaristic conservatives and Muslim-haters ain't it? You're ridiculous.
Your conclusions about what we do and think and our place in the world are all malicious lies. You infantalize us. You don't have enough respect for people who aren't like you to allow them autonomy in the world. You are the worst kind of bigot, the kind who thinks that you know better than we do about how we should be. You may not hate us, but you don't respect us.
Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth "People who pay attention and read between the lines know that much of the purported support for Israel among fundamentalist Christians and other militaristic conservatives is really about fulfilling Biblical prophecy for an armageddon, increasing the USA's power over the middle east and general hatred of Muslims."
"In a recent Time/CNN poll, more than one-third of Americans said that since the terrorist attacks of 9/11, they have been thinking more about how current events might be leading to the end of the world. While only 36 percent of all Americans believe that the Bible is God's Word and should be taken literally, 59 percent say they believe that events predicted in the Book of Revelation will come to pass. Almost one out of four Americans believes that 9/11 was predicted in the Bible, and nearly one in five believes that he or she will live long enough to see the end of the world. Even more significant for this study, over one-third of those Americans who support Israel report that they do so because they believe the Bible teaches that the Jews must possess their own country in the Holy Land before Jesus can return...Their beliefs are rooted in dispensationalism, a particular way of understanding the Bible's prophetic passages, especially those in Daniel and Ezekiel in the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation in the New Testament. They make up about one-third of America's 40 or 50 million evangelical Christians and believe that the nation of Israel will play a central role in the unfolding of end-times events. In the last part of the 20th century, dispensationalist evangelicals become Israel's best friends-an alliance that has made a serious geopolitical difference.
Read more at On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend by Timothy P. Weber - Beliefnet.com
"...millions of Americans believe that Christ will not come again until Israel wipes out its competitors and there is widespread war in the Middle East. Some of these folks want to start a huge fire of war and death and destruction, so that Jesus comes quickly. According to French President Chirac, Bush told him that the Iraq war was needed to bring on the apocalypse...Bill Moyers reports that the organization Christians United for Israel – led by highly-influential Pastor John C. Hagee – is a universal call to all Christians to help factions in Israel fund the Jewish settlements, throw out all the Palestinians and lobby for a pre-emptive invasion of Iran. All to bring Russia into a war against us causing World War III followed by Armageddon, the Second Coming and The Rapture...Dispensationalists include the following mega-pastors and their churches: Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham. They are supported by politicians such as: Newt Gingrich, Joseph Lieberman, John McCain, Texas Senator John Cronyn, Former House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay..."
Read more at On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend by Timothy P. Weber - Beliefnet.com
I didn't say you said so either. You said that "many" of these 72% (Which is what? 230,000,000 people?) are fundamentalist Christians, militaristic conservatives and Muslim-haters.
If you polled me and asked me if I was a supporter of Israel, I would of course say yes. However, I would also very much differ in my views on the subject from a fundamentalist Christian's views on Israel. The same is true for a lot of Americans, including most Jewish Americans.
Quote Originally Posted by Hard Truth "People who pay attention and read between the lines know that much of the purported support for Israel among fundamentalist Christians and other militaristic conservatives is really about fulfilling Biblical prophecy for an armageddon, increasing the USA's power over the middle east and general hatred of Muslims."
"In a recent Time/CNN poll, more than one-third of Americans said that since the terrorist attacks of 9/11, they have been thinking more about how current events might be leading to the end of the world. While only 36 percent of all Americans believe that the Bible is God's Word and should be taken literally, 59 percent say they believe that events predicted in the Book of Revelation will come to pass. Almost one out of four Americans believes that 9/11 was predicted in the Bible, and nearly one in five believes that he or she will live long enough to see the end of the world. Even more significant for this study, over one-third of those Americans who support Israel report that they do so because they believe the Bible teaches that the Jews must possess their own country in the Holy Land before Jesus can return...Their beliefs are rooted in dispensationalism, a particular way of understanding the Bible's prophetic passages, especially those in Daniel and Ezekiel in the Old Testament and the Book of Revelation in the New Testament. They make up about one-third of America's 40 or 50 million evangelical Christians and believe that the nation of Israel will play a central role in the unfolding of end-times events. In the last part of the 20th century, dispensationalist evangelicals become Israel's best friends-an alliance that has made a serious geopolitical difference.
Read more at On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend by Timothy P. Weber - Beliefnet.com
"...millions of Americans believe that Christ will not come again until Israel wipes out its competitors and there is widespread war in the Middle East. Some of these folks want to start a huge fire of war and death and destruction, so that Jesus comes quickly. According to French President Chirac, Bush told him that the Iraq war was needed to bring on the apocalypse...Bill Moyers reports that the organization Christians United for Israel – led by highly-influential Pastor John C. Hagee – is a universal call to all Christians to help factions in Israel fund the Jewish settlements, throw out all the Palestinians and lobby for a pre-emptive invasion of Iran. All to bring Russia into a war against us causing World War III followed by Armageddon, the Second Coming and The Rapture...Dispensationalists include the following mega-pastors and their churches: Jerry Falwell, Pat Robertson, Billy Graham. They are supported by politicians such as: Newt Gingrich, Joseph Lieberman, John McCain, Texas Senator John Cronyn, Former House Minority Whip Roy Blunt, Former House Majority Leader Tom DeLay..."
Read more at On the Road to Armageddon: How Evangelicals Became Israel's Best Friend by Timothy P. Weber - Beliefnet.com
If you polled me and asked me if I was a supporter of Israel, I would of course say yes. However, I would also very much differ in my views on the subject from a fundamentalist Christian's views on Israel. The same is true for a lot of Americans, including most Jewish Americans.
That'swhat I'm saying, that the majority of these 72% who said yes are not fundamentalists.
People who aren't Christians tend to try to declare there is the universal Christian - and there isn't. Nor is there a universal fundamentalist Christian view on virtually anything. That's why there are a thousand various denominations and sub-denominations and even more thousands of independent churches.
That also is why when someone posts "I am a Christian and ..." as if that reflects the views of Christians it is worthless as the voice of Christianity. Most American Catholics openly disagree with the Pope on many topics as another example. There is no universal view of Christians - other than Jesus was really important in some way.
Interesting. He's been wrong about that for a while. But they have been working on them, no?
"We" as in who, exactly? Islamic terror supporters? What 'work' are you even doing?
And the poll I've referred to is a very recent one, so... no.
Yes, and Israel has repeatedly taken successful actions to prevent it. Yes, we understand you want Iran to have nuclear weapons. No, Israel does not. No, I do not too.
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