Do People Fear Consumption and Enjoying Life? Thoughts of Suppressed or Expressed Guilt Are Not New

[JBG]

I was searching the phrase "sumptuary laws.".Sumptuary laws are laws designed to limit or discourage consumption. The effect of England's old sumptuary laws was to ensure that the rich could afford just about everything.I came across it in my reading of Friends Divided: John Adams and Thomas Jefferson by Gordon S. Wood. Going back to ancient Greek time, there was a philosopher named Epicuris, who believed (link to source):

Epicurus

First published Mon Jan 10, 2005; substantive revision Fri Jul 8, 2022
The philosophy of Epicurus (341–270 B.C.E.) was a complete and interdependent system, involving a view of the goal of human life (happiness, resulting from absence of physical pain and mental disturbance), an empiricist theory of knowledge (sensations, together with the perception of pleasure and pain, are infallible criteria), a description of nature based on atomistic materialism, and a naturalistic account of evolution, from the formation of the world to the emergence of human societies.

The incoming Christian culture did not agree, as I read in The Swerve: How the World Became Modern by Stephen Greenblatt. I did not think of any modern connections in thought, Indeed, I had thought that this line of thinking was recent, a response to post-War prosperity.

Thinking about it now, it seeped into the U.S. via books such as the 1950's classic by John Kenneth Galbraith, The Affluent Society. This foreshadowed by other authors and thinkers, such as Travels with Charley: In Search of America by John Steinbeck. In Travels Steinbeck rails against conspicuous consumption and other signs of affluence. One of the opening paragraphs of The American Way of Death by Jessica Mitford reads:

Much has been written of late about the affluent society in which we live, and much fun poked at some of the irrational "status symbols" set out like golden snares to trap the unwary consumer at every turn. Until recently, little has been said about the most irrational and weirdest of the lot, lying in ambush for all of us at the end of the road- -the modern American funeral.

Apparently, this goes back to John Adams and further, to the Puritans. I wonder if now it influences advocacy of self-abnegation with environmental laws and other policies.

 

[Mithrae]

I wonder if now it influences advocacy of self-abnegation with environmental laws and other policies.

So your argument against environmental protection and reduction of mindless overconsumption is not to dispute the facts that we live on a finite planet and are pushing or exceeding its capacity to suppport our civilization in a variety of different (but worrying interconnected) ways.... You simply want to make some kind of, uh, 'moral' case about it?

 

[JBG]

So your argument against environmental protection and reduction of mindless overconsumption is not to dispute the facts that we live on a finite planet and are pushing or exceeding its capacity to suppport our civilization in a variety of different (but worrying interconnected) ways.... You simply want to make some kind of, uh, 'moral' case about it?

No. What I'm saying is that people are quite ready to jump on a bandwagon, even if not really suffer themselves. Look how Europe is reacting to a winter with reduced natural gas. Suddenly they lose their affection for Ukraine, much as they did for Israel after the 1973 oil "embargo."

 

[BabyAugustine]

I was searching the phrase "sumptuary laws.".Sumptuary laws are laws designed to limit or discourage consumption. The effect of England's old sumptuary laws was to ensure that the rich could afford just about everything.I came across it in my reading of Friends Divided: John Adams and Thomas Jefferson by Gordon S. Wood. Going back to ancient Greek time, there was a philosopher named Epicuris, who believed (link to source):

The incoming Christian culture did not agree, as I read in The Swerve: How the World Became Modern by Stephen Greenblatt. I did not think of any modern connections in thought, Indeed, I had thought that this line of thinking was recent, a response to post-War prosperity.

Thinking about it now, it seeped into the U.S. via books such as the 1950's classic by John Kenneth Galbraith, The Affluent Society. This foreshadowed by other authors and thinkers, such as Travels with Charley: In Search of America by John Steinbeck. In Travels Steinbeck rails against conspicuous consumption and other signs of affluence. One of the opening paragraphs of The American Way of Death by Jessica Mitford reads:



Apparently, this goes back to John Adams and further, to the Puritans. I wonder if now it influences advocacy of self-abnegation with environmental laws and other policies.

Yes, I read that book too., It says none of what you add about sumptuary laws.
Nor did Christianity have the attitude you think it had. In fact it opposed your view vigorously from the very start,even with Jesus

MATTHEW 11:18
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at this glutton and drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’

1 Timothy 4
These liars have lied so well and for so long that they’ve lost their capacity for truth. They will tell you not to get married. They’ll tell you not to eat this or that food—perfectly good food God created to be eaten heartily and with thanksgiving by believers who know better! Everything God created is good, and to be received with thanks. Nothing is to be sneered at and thrown out. God’s Word and our prayers make every item in creation holy.

 

[Slartibartfast]

Generally people who want to take an ascetic approach to Christianity do it for their own personal reasons more then anything else.

Yes, one should try and avoid sin, but doesn't necessarily mean there needs to any sort of systematic rituals for engaging in self denial unless someone's temptation is so bad that they need that sort of thing. That is a person to person thing though.

 

[JBG]

Yes, I read that book too., It says none of what you add about sumptuary laws.
Nor did Christianity have the attitude you think it had. In fact it opposed your view vigorously from the very start,even with Jesus

MATTHEW 11:18
For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon!’ 19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at this glutton and drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’

1 Timothy 4
These liars have lied so well and for so long that they’ve lost their capacity for truth. They will tell you not to get married. They’ll tell you not to eat this or that food—perfectly good food God created to be eaten heartily and with thanksgiving by believers who know better! Everything God created is good, and to be received with thanks. Nothing is to be sneered at and thrown out. God’s Word and our prayers make every item in creation holy.

The tolerant and relaxed view that you are citing was more typical of Epicurus. The fun was over after.

 

[BabyAugustine]

YOu mix up 3 notions.
The first is that what you do and what you regert are in great disproportion because you do X and what you don't do, what you regret is NOT-X a huge number

Second it is not philosophy it is religion since you are speaking of ultimates as Viktor Frankl showed. We have a mind and a will and the upper hand is the mind, what we value and hope for and live for.
No one gets thru Hell just by saying "it will pass"

Finally, Both guilt and enjoyment can be false. Plato's Philebus settled that over 3000 years ago. So you are Protarchus

11d - Well, then, I want us to reach agreement on one further point.... What you and I are now to attempt is to put forward a certain state or condition of the soul which can render the life of every man a happy life. Am I right?

PROTARCHUS: Quite right.
SOCRATES: Then you people put forward the state of enjoyment, whereas we put forward that of intelligence?
PROTARCHUS: Yes.

 

[ataraxia]

I was searching the phrase "sumptuary laws.".Sumptuary laws are laws designed to limit or discourage consumption. The effect of England's old sumptuary laws was to ensure that the rich could afford just about everything.I came across it in my reading of Friends Divided: John Adams and Thomas Jefferson by Gordon S. Wood. Going back to ancient Greek time, there was a philosopher named Epicuris, who believed (link to source):

The incoming Christian culture did not agree, as I read in The Swerve: How the World Became Modern by Stephen Greenblatt. I did not think of any modern connections in thought, Indeed, I had thought that this line of thinking was recent, a response to post-War prosperity.

Thinking about it now, it seeped into the U.S. via books such as the 1950's classic by John Kenneth Galbraith, The Affluent Society. This foreshadowed by other authors and thinkers, such as Travels with Charley: In Search of America by John Steinbeck. In Travels Steinbeck rails against conspicuous consumption and other signs of affluence. One of the opening paragraphs of The American Way of Death by Jessica Mitford reads:



Apparently, this goes back to John Adams and further, to the Puritans. I wonder if now it influences advocacy of self-abnegation with environmental laws and other policies.

And it's not just in western culture. The Buddha, in his search for enlightenment, first tried extreme fasting and asceticism (which is still not uncommon in Indian culture). There are statues of him still commemorating this phase of his search:



But this was just a phase of his search. He soon realized that despite all the fasting, he wasn't feeling any more enlightened, just hunger. So that was part of the impetus behind his teaching of "the middle path". Buddhist monks today don't starve themselves, and yet also don't engage in gluttony.

"Buddhist teachings are neither affirmative nor denialist. It reveals the paradoxes of the universe, both within and beyond the opposites. It teaches us how to be both in and outside the world...We are not free if we only seek happiness through indulgence. We are not free if we struggle against ourselves and the rest of the world. Freedom is found in the middle. "

The Middle Way Buddhism

Buddhist teachings are neither affirmative nor denialist. It reveals the paradoxes of the universe, both within and beyond the opposites. It teaches us how to

buddhism-guide.com

 

[BabyAugustine]

If you read the Philebus (or the Bible) you'll see that your question has tricked you.
Not all pleasures are good pleasures and only wisdom discriminates. If it takes ascetism to cultivate that wisdom -- and it does --- there is your answer.

The Will of God as Jesus proclaimed it is not a simple avoid the roses in your walk through the garden of life.
No, Jesus says, to put in other words :If you becaome a fat glutton you actually lose pleasures. You know longer enjoy food , you just stuff your face. And all other pleasures are crowded out by your one-sidedness
To have the optimal pleasure requires sacrifice. And dedication to God

So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. For who is able to govern this great people of yours?”

10 The Lord was pleased that Solomon had asked for this. 11 So God said to him, “Since you have asked for this and not for long life or wealth for yourself, nor have asked for the death of your enemies but for discernment in administering justice, 12 I will do what you have asked. I will give you a wise and discerning heart, so that there will never have been anyone like you, nor will there ever be. 13 Moreover, I will give you what you have not asked for—both wealth and honor—so that in your lifetime you will have no equal among kings. 14 And if you walk in obedience to me and keep my decrees and commands as David your father did, I will give you a long life.”

 

[JBG]

And it's not just in western culture. The Buddha, in his search for enlightenment, first tried extreme fasting and asceticism (which is still not uncommon in Indian culture). There are statues of him still commemorating this phase of his search:

But this was just a phase of his search. He soon realized that despite all the fasting, he wasn't feeling any more enlightened, just hunger. So that was part of the impetus behind his teaching of "the middle path". Buddhist monks today don't starve themselves, and yet also don't engage in gluttony.

"Buddhist teachings are neither affirmative nor denialist. It reveals the paradoxes of the universe, both within and beyond the opposites. It teaches us how to be both in and outside the world...We are not free if we only seek happiness through indulgence. We are not free if we struggle against ourselves and the rest of the world. Freedom is found in the middle. "

The Middle Way Buddhism

Buddhist teachings are neither affirmative nor denialist. It reveals the paradoxes of the universe, both within and beyond the opposites. It teaches us how to

buddhism-guide.com

I actually agree with that path.

 

[BabyAugustine]

Sumptuary laws were all over colonial America and well-known to the FOunders.
NO connection to either fear or negative views of life. Since you cite no sources this MUST be your view, which puts it all on you.
There is absolutely no connection such as you envision, in Colonial America

 

[JBG]

Sumptuary laws were all over colonial America and well-known to the FOunders.
NO connection to either fear or negative views of life. Since you cite no sources this MUST be your view, which puts it all on you.
There is absolutely no connection such as you envision, in Colonial America

I cited Friends Divided: John Adams and Thomas Jefferson by Gordon S. Wood. Not good enough for you?