Did the US use democracy as a pretext to stifle the rise of Russia Eurasianism?

MildSteel · Feb 2, 2015

Ariel Cohen, an influential US foreign policy advisor noted the following back in 2001, long before the overthrow of Yanukovich and the Russian annexation of Crimea.

Russia's elites are preoccupied with advancing "Eurasianism," which sees Russia as the "ultimate World-Island state" apart from, and hostile to, the maritime and commercial Euro-Atlantic world. Russian analysts such as Yu. V. Tikhonravov argue that the nation holds a special place in the Eastern Hemisphere as a counterbalance to the "globalist" U.S.-led hegemony; their works are now part of the college curriculum approved by the Ministry of Higher Education.13 Because the West is so often portrayed as materialistic and corrupt, many Eurasianists advocate closer cooperation with China, the Arab world, and Iran while espousing anti-Turkic rhetoric.

The re-absorption of Ukraine into Russia fold would bring about a new, quasi-imperial and undemocratic Great Russia.

It is in U.S. interests to support Ukraine's independence, territorial integrity, democracy, economic reforms based on the rule of law, and sustainable pro-Western orientation.

To achieve this, the new Bush Administration should:

*Recognize the strategic importance of Ukraine, its continuous pro-Western orientation, as well as the threats to its independence. The Administration should utilize economic and political tools to support Ukrainian sovereignty and prevent its falling into the Russian orbit.

These tools include "traditional" democracy assistance through the National Endowment for Democracy, the International Republican Institute, the National Democratic Institute and International Foundation for Electoral Systems

Was the promotion of Ukrainian democracy by the US merely a pretext used to thwart the rise of the concept of Russian Eurasianism?

cpwill · Feb 2, 2015

:lamo

Okay, this belongs elsewhere in the forum now .

You figured it out, Mildsteel. Democracy assistance through the National Endowment for Democracy and the International Foundation for Electoral Systems is really just a cover for a CIA-Mossad Joint Operation with the Templars under the guidance of the Dead Poets Society to train up ISIL fighters and then use them in Ukraine to spark a civil war before exporting them to Syria in order to justify seizing the oilfields....

Rogue Valley · Feb 2, 2015

To the OP... Can you please ditch the headache-inducing oversize bolded text?

MildSteel · Feb 2, 2015

Simpleχity;1064265896 said:
To the OP... Can you please ditch the headache-inducing oversize bolded text?

Sorry, but the emphasis is necessary.

DaveFagan · Feb 2, 2015

MildSteel said:
Ariel Cohen, an influential US foreign policy advisor noted the following back in 2001, long before the overthrow of Yanukovich and the Russian annexation of Crimea.

Was the promotion of Ukrainian democracy by the US merely a pretext used to thwart the rise of the concept of Russian Eurasianism?

The USA is attempting in Ukraine to prevent Russian dominance over Energy supplies to Europe. The regulations imposed upon Russia in the South Stream pipeline reveal that pressure was attempted at every juncture. The Russians complied and agreed to more dictates than I would have. Alas, enough is enough, and the Russians switch to hardball. No more South Stream. The pipeline will go to Turkey and thence to Greece. That should be a minor salvation to the Greeks in their ongoing austerity program levied upon them by the EU and IMF. It will also shift allegiances to the Nations making them profit, like Russian Gas suppliers. Ukraine has always been an untrustworthy partner for Russia and the EU as regards the GasTransit. Ukraine has repeatedly siphoned off EU gas to the detriment of all involved. Our meddling in Ukraine force Russia to take action in Crimea to protect its' port and access to the Mediterranean. The Ukrainians have initiated a Civil War in Ukraine that could have likely been avoided with negotiation and the USA/CIA, including personal visits by Brennan (CIA head)to make sure there were no negotiations. In the meantime USA actions get a little backflash as Putin wisely negotiates huge trade and economic agreements with Asian alternatives. The USA and its' toadie EU apply sanctions, under false pretenses and Russia. The false nature made more blatant by Obama's CNN interview admitting to brokering the coup before Yanukovych, the democratically elected leader, was forced to flee by CIA allied and US State selected leaders to be. Two sham elections later and these toadies are installed with 18% of possible voters approval. The USA has managed to bring closer together an Asian, soon to be worldwide alliance, that doesn't approve of USA hegemony. We, the people of the USA, are fed from the dung heap know as perception management or Gov't/CIA controlled MSM media creating a lovely storybook of revisionist reality. Propaganda.

MildSteel · Feb 2, 2015

As far back as 1993, 22 years ago, Ariel Cohen made the following observations about Ukraine

Ukrainian sovereignty, however, remains a crucial Western interest as Ukraine could serve as a geo political balance should Russia develop a more anti-Western foreign policy

Also some interesting background on Crimea in that same 1993 piece.

Many in Russia are still resentful and dismayed about the loss of Little Russia, as Ukraine was known, reacting to Ukrainian independence with horror and territorial claims In January and February of 1992, the now defunct Russian Parliament passed resolutions calling for the re-examination and annulment of the 1954 transfer of the Crimea from the Russian Federation to Ukraine. In June 1992, Russian Foreign Minister Andrey Kozyrev raised the possibility of pressing territorial claims against Ukraine. In February 1993 presidential advisor Sergei Stankevich protested against close Polish-Ukrai nian relations and described Ukraine as a Russian sphere of influence.1 On June 17,1993, President Yeltsin and Ukrainian President Leonid Kravchuk concluded a deal dividing the Black Sea Fleet and the naval base in Sevastopol. The Russian Parliament adopted a resolution the next month granting Sevastopol the status of a Russian city. This resolution was subsequently condemned by both Yeltsin and Kravchuk, as well as by the United Nations Security Council. On September 3, President Yeltsin announced that Ukraine had agreed to sell its share of the Black Sea Fleet to Russia, lease the Sevastopol naval base, and return all strategic nuclear warheads to Russia in exchange for cancellation of the $2 billion Ukrainian debt. This agreement called the Massandra Protocol, was widely denounced in Kiev. President Kravchuk explained that Russia had presented Ukraine with an ultimatum: either repay the debt or oil and gas supplies would be cut off. As a result of political strife, Ukrainian Prime Minister Leonid Kuchma and Defense Minister Konstantin Morozov resigned Russias fate will be the principal determinant of the regions evolution.

cpwill · Feb 2, 2015

Simpleχity;1064265896 said:
To the OP... Can you please ditch the headache-inducing oversize bolded text?

NO! Ukraine's independence, territorial integrity, democracy, economic reforms based on the rule of law, and sustainable pro-Western orientation are HUGELY SIGNIFICANT AND OBVIOUS FRONTS FOR EVIL MACHINATIONS OF THE EVIL SECRET POWERS WHO EVILY CONTROL THE WORLD FOR EVIL! ONLY BRIGHT RED TEXT IS CAPABLE OF COMMUNICATING THIS!

MildSteel · Feb 2, 2015

DaveFagan said:
The USA is attempting in Ukraine to prevent Russian dominance over Energy supplies to Europe. The regulations imposed upon Russia in the South Stream pipeline reveal that pressure was attempted at every juncture. The Russians complied and agreed to more dictates than I would have. Alas, enough is enough, and the Russians switch to hardball. No more South Stream. The pipeline will go to Turkey and thence to Greece. That should be a minor salvation to the Greeks in their ongoing austerity program levied upon them by the EU and IMF. It will also shift allegiances to the Nations making them profit, like Russian Gas suppliers. Ukraine has always been an untrustworthy partner for Russia and the EU as regards the GasTransit. Ukraine has repeatedly siphoned off EU gas to the detriment of all involved. Our meddling in Ukraine force Russia to take action in Crimea to protect its' port and access to the Mediterranean. The Ukrainians have initiated a Civil War in Ukraine that could have likely been avoided with negotiation and the USA/CIA, including personal visits by Brennan (CIA head)to make sure there were no negotiations. In the meantime USA actions get a little backflash as Putin wisely negotiates huge trade and economic agreements with Asian alternatives. The USA and its' toadie EU apply sanctions, under false pretenses and Russia. The false nature made more blatant by Obama's CNN interview admitting to brokering the coup before Yanukovych, the democratically elected leader, was forced to flee by CIA allied and US State selected leaders to be. Two sham elections later and these toadies are installed with 18% of possible voters approval. The USA has managed to bring closer together an Asian, soon to be worldwide alliance, that doesn't approve of USA hegemony. We, the people of the USA, are fed from the dung heap know as perception management or Gov't/CIA controlled MSM media creating a lovely storybook of revisionist reality. Propaganda.

Well Russian energy supplies to Europe have certainly been of interest to Mr Cohen. Here's something from a 2001 piece

Meanwhile, the energy-hungry EU countries are concerned about the current instability in the Middle East and would like to increase their imports of Russian natural gas. Russia is already planning to sell electricity to Europe and Japan, and possibly to China. But history shows that energy trade is often linked to security cooperation. Political instability or policy differences can threaten energy exports and thereby force the dependent country to mute its concerns. For example, Europe, especially France, is already toning down criticism of Russia's actions in Chechnya. Poland is decreasing its support for Ukraine. Thus, with higher dependency on energy from Russia, the EU may become even less critical of Russia's assertive foreign policies.

Also with regards to perception management, please note the efforts by one person here to mock the theme of this thread.

MildSteel · Feb 2, 2015

Here's an interesting observation from 2011

Clearly, the paramount geopolitical interest of the U.S. remains prevention of a return of a Eurasian empire of reversal of the post-Cold War settlement in Eurasia.

MildSteel · Feb 2, 2015

Some more on Europe and Russian energy supplies from 2009

Work with American allies and partners to diminish dependence on Russian energy. This is a vital component of any strategy designed to stem Russian aspirations to neutralize and “Finlandize” Europe by weakening its strategic alliance with the United States. The U.S., under President Obama’s leadership, should encourage its European allies to diversify their sources of energy, to add LNG and non–Russian-controlled gas from the Caspian, and nuclear energy and coal, as well as economically viable renewable energy sources.

DaveFagan · Feb 2, 2015

cpwill said:
NO! Ukraine's independence, territorial integrity, democracy, economic reforms based on the rule of law, and sustainable pro-Western orientation are HUGELY SIGNIFICANT AND OBVIOUS FRONTS FOR EVIL MACHINATIONS OF THE EVIL SECRET POWERS WHO EVILY CONTROL THE WORLD FOR EVIL! ONLY BRIGHT RED TEXT IS CAPABLE OF COMMUNICATING THIS!

Even bright red text requires competent authorship. Partisan bias and attachments to illusion
seldom prevail in intelligent discussion.

DaveFagan · Feb 2, 2015

If you want to encourage PEACE between Nations, you foster trade among
them. When you try to limit, control, or monopolize trade you are using the
tools that usually lead to war. That is what the Allegedly free society of the
USA is fostering in Ukraine and elsewhere. When we say Free Trade, we
mean a one way deal good for the USA and its' toadies, the UK, EU and
Japan. Once again, I feel shame for what multiNational Corporations have
turned the USA into. The people here really don't know what's going on and
until they get the MSM perception management cured, they will not know.
"Ignorance is bliss," don't ya' know?

cpwill · Feb 2, 2015

DaveFagan said:
Even bright red text requires competent authorship. Partisan bias and attachments to illusion
seldom prevail in intelligent discussion.

Well I think it lends a lot of credibility to the notion that our government is so super duper competent that it can secretly run the world, even when the people at the top are completely disinterested in doing so.

joko104 · Feb 2, 2015

Ukraine is the critical element for Russia to return to being a mega-power far more than EU countries.

DaveFagan · Feb 2, 2015

joko104 said:
Ukraine is the critical element for Russia to return to being a mega-power far more than EU countries.

That's simply not so. Russia has re-routed the South Stream gas transit pipeline to Turkey and thence to Greece.
Ukraine has been an expensive millstone around Russia's neck. Russia gave Ukraine $35 billion in the last ten
years. Russia still supplies gas and electric to Ukraine. Russia says it will shut off transit gas through Ukraine
when the New South Stream project is complete. Europe will still get the gas and Ukraine will get the bone.
Russia wants to be recognized as an International player in much
commerce because the Nation crosses 10-11 time zones and possesses a wealth of natural resources including
huge reserves of oil and gas. Russia has re-aligned its' commercial operations to favor Asian trade instead of an
unreliable Europe operating as a flunky of the USA. Russia needs mega-power to defend itself from proven predators
like the USA. Hell mon, if Russia didn't have Nukes, the NeoCons would have ginned up an attack upon Russia long
ago. That's the reality or at least a small part of it.

DaveFagan · Feb 2, 2015

cpwill said:
Well I think it lends a lot of credibility to the notion that our government is so super duper competent that it can secretly run the world, even when the people at the top are completely disinterested in doing so.

That's why we have military bases in 150 or so foreign Nations. That's why we have initiated
wars in dozens of Nations. We do this because the people at the top are completely disinterested
in doing so. Full Spectrum Dominance with the NWO means to rule the World militarily, economically,
and politically including and especially the Information SuperHighway. Goebbels revealed the use of
the MSM as a Machiavellian tool for control and it's working well on your psyche, eh?

Fearandloathing · Feb 2, 2015

DaveFagan said:
The USA is attempting in Ukraine to prevent Russian dominance over Energy supplies to Europe. The regulations imposed upon Russia in the South Stream pipeline reveal that pressure was attempted at every juncture. The Russians complied and agreed to more dictates than I would have. Alas, enough is enough, and the Russians switch to hardball. No more South Stream. The pipeline will go to Turkey and thence to Greece. That should be a minor salvation to the Greeks in their ongoing austerity program levied upon them by the EU and IMF. It will also shift allegiances to the Nations making them profit, like Russian Gas suppliers. Ukraine has always been an untrustworthy partner for Russia and the EU as regards the GasTransit. Ukraine has repeatedly siphoned off EU gas to the detriment of all involved. Our meddling in Ukraine force Russia to take action in Crimea to protect its' port and access to the Mediterranean. The Ukrainians have initiated a Civil War in Ukraine that could have likely been avoided with negotiation and the USA/CIA, including personal visits by Brennan (CIA head)to make sure there were no negotiations. In the meantime USA actions get a little backflash as Putin wisely negotiates huge trade and economic agreements with Asian alternatives. The USA and its' toadie EU apply sanctions, under false pretenses and Russia. The false nature made more blatant by Obama's CNN interview admitting to brokering the coup before Yanukovych, the democratically elected leader, was forced to flee by CIA allied and US State selected leaders to be. Two sham elections later and these toadies are installed with 18% of possible voters approval. The USA has managed to bring closer together an Asian, soon to be worldwide alliance, that doesn't approve of USA hegemony. We, the people of the USA, are fed from the dung heap know as perception management or Gov't/CIA controlled MSM media creating a lovely storybook of revisionist reality. Propaganda.

So in your opinion that's good reason to try to over throw a duly elected democracy?

Come on.....who's into propaganda now?

shrubnose · Feb 2, 2015

cpwill said:
NO! Ukraine's independence, territorial integrity, democracy, economic reforms based on the rule of law, and sustainable pro-Western orientation are HUGELY SIGNIFICANT AND OBVIOUS FRONTS FOR EVIL MACHINATIONS OF THE EVIL SECRET POWERS WHO EVILY CONTROL THE WORLD FOR EVIL!

ONLY BRIGHT RED TEXT IS CAPABLE OF COMMUNICATING THIS!

Click to expand...

If it was underlined also then it would really get the job done.

NeverTrump · Feb 2, 2015

I think we need a new poll section added to the CT forum so that this type of stuff can go there, so that the CTs are free to talk about their made up stories to their hearts content.

Quag · Feb 2, 2015

Once in a while the tin foil hat crowd will climb up to the surface no matter what you do.

DaveFagan · Feb 2, 2015

Fearandloathing said:
So in your opinion that's good reason to try to over throw a duly elected democracy?

Come on.....who's into propaganda now?

I'm saying it was the USA that overthrew a duly elected democracy in Ukraine.
The USA has tried to pretend that the current gov't is the will of the people. It is
the will of 18% of elegible voters. Ukraine was no paradise under Yanukovych, but
it was much better than it is now. The Ukrainian citizens have been the most adversely
impacted in every way. This is because the USA would have no compromise on dealing
with Russia. Russia had been babysitting and subsidizing Ukraine for two decades.

Fearandloathing · Feb 2, 2015

DaveFagan said:
I'm saying it was the USA that overthrew a duly elected democracy in Ukraine.
The USA has tried to pretend that the current gov't is the will of the people. It is
the will of 18% of elegible voters. Ukraine was no paradise under Yanukovych, but
it was much better than it is now. The Ukrainian citizens have been the most adversely
impacted in every way. This is because the USA would have no compromise on dealing
with Russia. Russia had been babysitting and subsidizing Ukraine for two decades.

Oops did i post the wrong reply?

I think we agree on all of that.

Sorry

11Bravo · Feb 2, 2015

MildSteel said:
Ariel Cohen, an influential US foreign policy advisor noted the following back in 2001, long before the overthrow of Yanukovich and the Russian annexation of Crimea.

Was the promotion of Ukrainian democracy by the US merely a pretext used to thwart the rise of the concept of Russian Eurasianism?

That was really tough to read, with all of the black and red going on. Well, you make some interesting points. Would it be in US interests to do so? Technically it would. Do you think Obama has the peaches to pull something like that off? If so, he's risking the Democrats. If the Democrats supported him for this, they'd be total hypocrites.

NeverTrump · Feb 2, 2015

Whatever happened to properly quoting things? Why does Davefagan and MildSteel get a pass to seemingly post huge bits of information onto the forum with little to no well known sources and/or large swaths of text with no source, even though it is blatant copy-paste? Also most of this has already been discussed in another topic posted by the same person...Control yourself dave or mild or both? :2wave:

DaveFagan · Feb 2, 2015

ModerateGOP said:
Whatever happened to properly quoting things? Why does Davefagan and MildSteel get a pass to seemingly post huge bits of information onto the forum with little to no well known sources and/or large swaths of text with no source, even though it is blatant copy-paste? Also most of this has already been discussed in another topic posted by the same person...Control yourself dave or mild or both? :2wave:

There is plenty of room for you to copy and paste these alleged huge bits of info. Also room to point out the alleged copy-paste blatancy. You sound like someoney that doesn't like to discuss topics ignored/censored by ommission in the MSM, eh? You may be standing too close to the bells in Belleville, don't ya' know, or not.

Did the US use democracy as a pretext to stifle the rise of Russia Eurasianism?

Did the US use democracy as a pretext to stifle the rise of Russia Eurasianism?

Yes

No

Lead or get out of the way

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