Did the early CHURCH father believe JESUS was indeed GOD?

[LittleNipper]

The word TRINITY was not yet developed; however, it would seem that the Founding Fathers of the CHURCH agreed to the following ----- contrary to Witness promoted by the leaders of that organization.
Many people think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ in the fourth century, but a look at quotes from the early church fathers shows this is an egregious misrepresentation of the facts. In my mentoring letter this month, I offered a short list of quotations to demonstrate that the early church believed Jesus is God. Now I’d like to make the argument even stronger by offering thirty-six quotations from nine different early church fathers. All of these quotations predate the Council of Nicea.

Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,

Now may the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the eternal high priest himself, the Son of God Jesus Christ, build you up in faith and truth...and to us with you, and to all those under heaven who will yet believe in our Lord and God Jesus Christ and in his Father who raised him from the dead.

Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,

Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, unto her which hath been blessed in greatness through the plentitude of God the Father; which hath been foreordained before the ages to be for ever unto abiding and unchangeable glory, united and elect in a true passion, by the will of the Father and of Jesus Christ our God; even unto the church which is in Ephesus [of Asia], worthy of all felicitation: abundant greeting in Christ Jesus and in blameless joy.

Being as you are imitators of God, once you took on new life through the blood of God you completed perfectly the task so natural to you.

There is only one physician, who is both flesh and spirit, born and unborn, God in man, true life in death, both from Mary and from God, first subject to suffering and then beyond it, Jesus Christ our Lord.

For our God, Jesus the Christ, was conceived by Mary according to God’s plan, both from the seed of David and of the Holy Spirit.

Consequently all magic and every kind of spell were dissolved, the ignorance so characteristic of wickedness vanished, and the ancient kingdom was abolished when God appeared in human form to bring the newness of eternal life

For our God Jesus Christ is more visible now that he is in the Father.

I glorify Jesus Christ, the God who made you so wise, for I observed that you are established in an unshakable faith, having been nailed, as it were, to the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Wait expectantly for the one who is above time: the Eternal, the Invisible, who for our sake became visible; the Intangible, the Unsuffering, who for our sake suffered, who for our sake endured in every way.

The entire article may be found here: https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

 

[LittleNipper]

Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) was an Christian apologist of the second century.

And that Christ being Lord, and God the Son of God, and appearing formerly in power as Man, and Angel, and in the glory of fire as at the bush, so also was manifested at the judgment executed on Sodom, has been demonstrated fully by what has been said.

Permit me first to recount the prophecies, which I wish to do in order to prove that Christ is called both God and Lord of hosts.

Therefore these words testify explicitly that He [Jesus] is witnessed to by Him [the Father] who established these things, as deserving to be worshipped, as God and as Christ.

The Father of the universe has a Son; who also, being the first-begotten Word of God, is even God. And of old He appeared in the shape of fire and in the likeness of an angel to Moses and to the other prophets; but now in the times of your reign, having, as we before said, become Man by a virgin....

For if you had understood what has been written by the prophets, you would not have denied that He was God, Son of the only, unbegotten, unutterable God.

Melito of Sardis (died c. AD 180) was the bishop of the church in Sardis.

He that hung up the earth in space was Himself hanged up; He that fixed the heavens was fixed with nails; He that bore up the earth was born up on a tree; the Lord of all was subjected to ignominy in a naked body—God put to death! ... n order that He might not be seen, the luminaries turned away, and the day became darkened—because they slew God, who hung naked on the tree.... This is He who made the heaven and the earth, and in the beginning, together with the Father, fashioned man; who was announced by means of the law and the prophets; who put on a bodily form in the Virgin; who was hanged upon the tree; who was buried in the earth; who rose from the place of the dead, and ascended to the height of heaven, and sitteth on the right hand of the Father.

The entire article may be found here: https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

 

[LittleNipper]

Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) was bishop of Lugdunum in Gaul, which is now Lyons, France. Irenaeus was born in Smyrna in Asia Minor, where he studied under bishop Polycarp, who in turn had been a disciple of John the Apostle.

For I have shown from the Scriptures, that no one of the sons of Adam is as to everything, and absolutely, called God, or named Lord. But that He is Himself in His own right, beyond all men who ever lived, God, and Lord, and King Eternal, and the Incarnate Word, proclaimed by all the prophets, the apostles, and by the Spirit Himself, may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth. Now, the Scriptures would not have testified these things of Him, if, like others, He had been a mere man.... He is the holy Lord, the Wonderful, the Counselor, the Beautiful in appearance, and the Mighty God, coming on the clouds as the Judge of all men;—all these things did the Scriptures prophesy of Him.

He received testimony from all that He was very man, and that He was very God, from the Father, from the Spirit, from angels, from the creation itself, from men, from apostate spirits and demons.

Christ Jesus [is] our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father.

Christ Himself, therefore, together with the Father, is the God of the living, who spoke to Moses, and who was also manifested to the fathers.

Carefully, then, has the Holy Ghost pointed out, by what has been said, His birth from a virgin, and His essence, that He is God (for the name Emmanuel indicates this). And He shows that He is a man.... [W]e should not understand that He is a mere man only, nor, on the other hand, from the name Emmanuel, should suspect Him to be God without flesh. Clement of Alexandria (AD 150-215) was another early church father. He wrote around AD 200. He writes,

This Word, then, the Christ, the cause of both our being at first (for He was in God) and of our well-being, this very Word has now appeared as man, He alone being both, both God and man—the Author of all blessings to us; by whom we, being taught to live well, are sent on our way to life eternal.... The Word, who in the beginning bestowed on us life as Creator when He formed us, taught us to live well when He appeared as our Teacher that as God He might afterwards conduct us to the life which never ends.

For it was not without divine care that so great a work was accomplished in so brief a space by the Lord, who, though despised as to appearance, was in reality adored, the expiator of sin, the Savior, the clement, the Divine Word, He that is truly most manifest Deity, He that is made equal to the Lord of the universe; because He was His Son, and the Word was in God....

The entire article may be found here: https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

 

[LittleNipper]

Tertullian (AD 150-225) was an early Christian apologist. He said,

For God alone is without sin; and the only man without sin is Christ, since Christ is also God

Thus Christ is Spirit of Spirit, and God of God, as light of light is kindled.... That which has come forth out of God is at once God and the Son of God, and the two are one. In this way also, as He is Spirit of Spirit and God of God, He is made a second in manner of existence—in position, not in nature; and He did not withdraw from the original source, but went forth. This ray of God, then, as it was always foretold in ancient times, descending into a certain virgin, and made flesh in her womb, is in His birth God and man united.j

Bear always in mind that this is the rule of faith which I profess; by it I testify that the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit are inseparable from each other , and so will you know in what sense this is said. Now, observe, my assertion is that the Father is one, and the Son one, and the Spirit one, and that they are distinct from each other. This statement is taken in a wrong sense by every uneducated as well as every perversely disposed person, as if it predicated a diversity, in such a sense as to imply a separation among the Father, and the Son, and the Spirit. I am, moreover, obliged to say this, when they contend for the identity of the Father and Son and Spirit, that it is not by way of diversity that the Son differs from the Father, but by distribution: it is not by division that He is different, but by distinction; because the Father is not the same as the Son, since they differ one from the other in the mode of their being. For the Father is the entire substance, but the Son is a derivation and portion of the whole, as He Himself acknowledges: “My Father is greater than I.” In the Psalm His inferiority is described as being “a little lower than the angels.” Thus the Father is distinct from the Son, being greater than the Son, inasmuch as He who begets is one, and He who is begotten is another; He, too, who sends is one, and He who is sent is another; and He, again, who makes is one, and He through whom the thing is made is another. Happily the Lord Himself employs this expression of the person of the Paraclete, so as to signify not a division or severance, but a disposition (of mutual relations in the Godhead); for He says, “I will pray the Father, and He shall send you another Comforter...even the Spirit of truth,” thus making the Paraclete distinct from Himself, even as we say that the Son is also distinct from the Father; so that He showed a third degree in the Paraclete, as we believe the second degree is in the Son, by reason of the order observed in the Economy. Besides, does not the very fact that they have the distinct names of Father and Son amount to a declaration that they are distinct in personality?

As if in this way also one were not All, in that All are of One, by unity (that is) of substance; while the mystery of the dispensation is still guarded, which distributes the Unity into a Trinity, placing in their order the three Persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost: three, however, not in condition, but in degree; not in substance, but in form; not in power, but in aspect; yet of one substance, and of one condition, and of one power, inasmuch as He is one God, from whom these degrees and forms and aspects are reckoned, under the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.

The entire article may be found here: https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

 

[LittleNipper]

Hippolytus of Rome (AD 170-235) was a third-century theologian. He was a disciple of Irenaeus, who was a disciple of Polycarp, who was a disciple of John. He writes,

The Logos alone of this God is from God himself; wherefore also the Logos is God, being the substance of God.

For, lo, the Only-begotten entered, a soul among souls, God the Word with a (human) soul. For His body lay in the tomb, not emptied of divinity; but as, while in Hades, He was in essential being with His Father, so was He also in the body and in Hades. For the Son is not contained in space, just as the Father; and He comprehends all things in Himself.

For all, the righteous and the unrighteous alike, shall be brought before God the Word.

Let us believe then, dear brethren, according to the tradition of the apostles, that God the Word came down from heaven, (and entered) into the holy Virgin Mary, in order that, taking the flesh from her, and assuming also a human, by which I mean a rational soul, and becoming thus all that man is with the exception of sin, He might save fallen man, and confer immortality on men who believe on His name.... He now, coming forth into the world, was manifested as God in a body, coming forth too as a perfect man. For it was not in mere appearance or by conversion, but in truth, that He became man. Thus then, too, though demonstrated as God, He does not refuse the conditions proper to Him as man, since He hungers and toils and thirsts in weariness, and flees in fear, and prays in trouble. And He who as God has a sleepless nature, slumbers on a pillow.

The entire article may be found here: https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

 

[LittleNipper]

Origen (AD 185-254) was another early Christian theologian. He writes,

Jesus Christ...in the last times, divesting Himself (of His glory), became a man, and was incarnate although God, and while made a man remained the God which He was.

Seeing God the Father is invisible and inseparable from the Son, the Son is not generated from Him by “prolation,” as some suppose. For if the Son be a “prolation” of the Father (the term “prolation” being used to signify such a generation as that of animals or men usually is), then, of necessity, both He who “prolated” and He who was “prolated” are corporeal. For we do not say, as the heretics suppose, that some part of the substance of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father out of things non-existent, i.e., beyond His own substance, so that there once was a time when He did not exist.... How, then, can it be asserted that there once was a time when He was not the Son? For that is nothing else than to say that there was once a time when He was not the Truth, nor the Wisdom, nor the Life, although in all these He is judged to be the perfect essence of God the Father; for these things cannot be severed from Him, or even be separated from His essence.

For we who say that the visible world is under the government to Him who created all things, do thereby declare that the Son is not mightier than the Father, but inferior to Him. And this belief we ground on the saying of Jesus Himself, “The Father who sent Me is greater than I.” And none of us is so insane as to affirm that the Son of man is Lord over God. But when we regard the Savior as God the Word, and Wisdom, and Righteousness, and Truth, we certainly do say that He has dominion over all things which have been subjected to Him in this capacity, but not that His dominion extends over the God and Father who is Ruler over all.

Wherefore we have always held that God is the Father of His only-begotten Son, who was born indeed of Him, and derives from Him what He is, but without any beginning, not only such as may be measured by any divisions of time, but even that which the mind alone can contemplate within itself, or behold, so to speak, with the naked powers of the understanding.

But it is monstrous and unlawful to compare God the Father, in the generation of His only-begotten Son, and in the substance of the same, to any man or other living thing engaged in such an act; for we must of necessity hold that there is something exceptional and worthy of God which does not admit of any comparison at all, not merely in things, but which cannot even be conceived by thought or discovered by perception, so that a human mind should be able to apprehend how the unbegotten God is made the Father of the only-begotten Son. Because His generation is as eternal and everlasting as the brilliancy which is produced from the sun. For it is not by receiving the breath of life that He is made a Son, by any outward act, but by His own nature.

And that you may understand that the omnipotence of Father and Son is one and the same, as God and the Lord are one and the same with the Father, listen to the manner in which John speaks in the Apocalypse: “Thus saith the Lord God, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.” For who else was “He which is to come” than Christ? And as no one ought to be offended, seeing God is the Father, that the Savior is also God; so also, since the Father is called omnipotent, no one ought to be offended that the Son of God is also called omnipotent.

The entire article may be found here: https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

 

[tshade]

The word TRINITY was not yet developed; however, it would seem that the Founding Fathers of the CHURCH agreed to the following ----- contrary to Witness promoted by the leaders of that organization.
Many people think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ in the fourth century, but a look at quotes from the early church fathers shows this is an egregious misrepresentation of the facts. In my mentoring letter this month, I offered a short list of quotations to demonstrate that the early church believed Jesus is God. Now I’d like to make the argument even stronger by offering thirty-six quotations from nine different early church fathers. All of these quotations predate the Council of Nicea.

Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,


Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,













The entire article may be found here: https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

yes---they believed He was God

 

[craig]

No. They were Jews and monotheists. The Messiah was not another god. The Church twisted itself into knots trying not to fall back into Greek polytheism.

 

[Revelation]

The word TRINITY was not yet developed; however, it would seem that the Founding Fathers of the CHURCH agreed to the following ----- contrary to Witness promoted by the leaders of that organization.
Many people think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ in the fourth century, but a look at quotes from the early church fathers shows this is an egregious misrepresentation of the facts. In my mentoring letter this month, I offered a short list of quotations to demonstrate that the early church believed Jesus is God. Now I’d like to make the argument even stronger by offering thirty-six quotations from nine different early church fathers. All of these quotations predate the Council of Nicea.

Polycarp (AD 69-155) was the bishop at the church in Smyrna. Irenaeus tells us Polycarp was a disciple of John the Apostle. In his Letter to the Philippians he says,


Ignatius (AD 50-117) was the bishop at the church in Antioch and also a disciple of John the Apostle. He wrote a series of letters to various churches on his way to Rome, where he was to be martyred. He writes,













The entire article may be found here: https://www.str.org/w/nine-early-church-fathers-who-taught-jesus-is-god

thank you Nipper

it is quite Clear that the Early church or the ante-Nicene church believed that Jesus is God, no question.


Polycarp (AD 69-155) Ignatius (AD 50-117) Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) Tertullian (AD 150-225) were all early church leaders and writers. the ante-Nice writers are available for all to read, and i keep a copy of many of them in my Library for research purposes.

however i draw the line with Origen (AD 185-254) who was an Alexandrian heretic and would not use his material for doctrine.

other than that, great posts and good to hear that you are a student of the ante-Nicene church writers.



blessings, 50 days to dig.


.

 

[LittleNipper]

No. They were Jews and monotheists. The Messiah was not another god. The Church twisted itself into knots trying not to fall back into Greek polytheism.

John was an Apostle of the MESSIAH/CHRIST was a JEW who penned the book of John. While written in Greek, the book of John is believed to have been penned predominantly for a Jewish audience, though it included Gentile converts.
There is a big difference between polytheism and the TRINITY. Polytheism involves a variety of gods who individually control different aspects of nature and fight among themselves for power and control. The TRINITY is the name developed to demonstrate that though there is but ONE GOD. That this GOD exists in three persons (also known as the GODHEAD) ---- who are fully attuned to each other and work perfectly together as one essence in pursuit of their perfect eternal goal.

 

[craig]

John was an Apostle of the MESSIAH/CHRIST was a JEW who penned the book of John. While written in Greek, the book of John is believed to have been penned predominantly for a Jewish audience, though it included Gentile converts.
There is a big difference between polytheism and the TRINITY. Polytheism involves a variety of gods who individually control different aspects of nature and fight among themselves for power and control. The TRINITY is the name developed to demonstrate that though there is but ONE GOD. That this GOD exists in three persons (also known as the GODHEAD) ---- who are fully attuned to each other and work perfectly together as one essence in pursuit of their perfect eternal goal.

Knots.

 

[LittleNipper]

thank you Nipper

it is quite Clear that the Early church or the ante-Nicene church believed that Jesus is God, no question.


Polycarp (AD 69-155) Ignatius (AD 50-117) Justin Martyr (AD 100-165) Irenaeus of Lyons (AD 130-202) Tertullian (AD 150-225) were all early church leaders and writers. the ante-Nice writers are available for all to read, and i keep a copy of many of them in my Library for research purposes.

however i draw the line with Origen (AD 185-254) who was an Alexandrian heretic and would not use his material for doctrine.

other than that, great posts and good to hear that you are a student of the ante-Nicene church writers.



blessings, 50 days to dig.


.

Thank you Revelation. I've enclosed the following that you may find interesting regarding Origen. I do not uphold his shortcomings but I realize that 1) he wasn't writing scripture and 2) he perhaps began to take himself too seriously and this got him into trouble. The same could be said of Harold Camping... I do feel that Origen was trying to formulate an understanding of what he believed, but never denied CHRIST. https://christianhistoryinstitute.org/magazine/article/origen-friend-or-foe

 

[LittleNipper]

Knots.

If you wish an illustration of knots ----- read the AWAKE MAGAZINE or the WATCHTOWER. They even had to re-translate the Bible to suit their expectations.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD. And the Word was GOD.
For unto us a child is born (humanity), unto us a son is given (deity): and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

 

[spud_meister]

How do we know the words of the church fathers haven't been altered to present a more modern theology?

 

[joluoto]

I don't really get why Christian call themselves monotheists, when there is clearly three Christian Gods.

 

[LittleNipper]

How do we know the words of the church fathers haven't been altered to present a more modern theology?

Many "modern" churches today disagree with the recorded words of the Church Fathers ------ so it seems highly unlikely, since they upheld the Bible teaching.

 

[Revelation]

.

well some don't want to understand the Trinity or walk by faith. best to think different....

I don't really get why Christian call themselves monotheists, when there is clearly three Christian Gods.

the Father, Son, and Spirit are one.

the Bible teaches that so we teach that.

since the Bibles teaches that we believe it by Faith.

we will understand this Personality only in heaven.

for now we walk by Faith and not by Sight.



the unbelievers do not accept this.

they do not believe the Bible as written.

they also will not go to heaven in the end.

the unbeliever will therefore never understand this and will be lost forever.


what to do?

as a Christian, we will continue to believe the Bible and walk by faith

as an unbeliever, you need to find real Bible church and Mourner's Bench.

in the End there are only Few who will find the Truth and walk the narrow way of Faith and Holiness.


Be the Few, seek Jesus, walk in Holiness, ignore the Nay Sayers and enjoy heaven forever.



blessings all, 50 day to make up yur minds. stay on the schedule, Orange is up to something......big.


.

 

[Napoleon]

The word TRINITY was not yet developed; however, it would seem that the Founding Fathers of the CHURCH agreed to the following ----- contrary to Witness promoted by the leaders of that organization.
Many people think Emperor Constantine invented the deity of Christ in the fourth century, but a look at quotes from the early church fathers shows this is an egregious misrepresentation of the facts. In my mentoring letter this month, I offered a short list of quotations to demonstrate that the early church believed Jesus is God. Now I’d like to make the argument even stronger by offering thirty-six quotations from nine different early church fathers. All of these quotations predate the Council of Nicea.

Be careful not to fall into error in your argument. That some people believed in the Trinity before the First Council of Nicaea is a given. But not evidence in and of itself that the position is correct. Remember, the purpose of the Council was to settle theological differences of opinion within the early Church. They weren’t doing theology on-the-fly - they were debating ideas already prominent in the early Church and voting on them. And this wasn’t the first time the issue was debated.

There was a great deal of disagreement in the early Church about the nature of the Trinity and whether it even existed at all. The first time these differences seem to have been formally debated was at the First Synod of Antioch in 264 (60 years before the First Council of Nicaea). Two positions were debated - the first being that the Trinity is real and consists of God himself divided into three persons or forms (the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit). The second being that the Trinity is bunk because God is indivisible. Therefore Jesus Christ was the human adopted son of God and the Holy Spirit is just a form of God’s grace that had been anthropomorphized.

The Synod concluded that God is indeed indivisible and the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are separate and distinct persons. However, they form a Trinity in the sense that all three are formed from the same substance. The Bishop of Antioch was stripped of his office and excommunicated for refusing to yield to this position.

Neither the First Synod of Antioch or the First Council of Nicaea were the end of the matter. The development of the official theology of the Trinity was an iterative process over many centuries. Although these matters were decided by majority vote, representation was an issue and it cannot really be said there has ever been legitimate consensus as anyone who disagreed with the dominant faction was summarily excommunicated as a heretic.

As an aside, we should be careful in the characterization of anyone as “Founding Fathers of the Church.” Which Church? By conventional reckoning, Jesus Christ was crucified in 33 AD and by the end of the first century the original church as founded by him had already fragmented into a multitude of sects and theologies. The Synods and Councils were trying to put Humpty Dumpty back together again and we cannot really gauge their success by seeking confirmation bias in hindsight.

 

[Daisy]

The Plain Sense of Scripture

Would we say that the idea that Jesus was a god and not the same as God the Creator is contrary to Johannine (that is, the apostle John’s) thought, as well as Christian thought as a whole? Let us examine some Bible texts that refer to Jesus and to God, and we will see what some commentators who lived before the Athanasian Creed was formulated thought about those texts.

“I and the Father are one.”—JOHN 10:30.

Novatian (c. 200-258 C.E.) commented: “Since He said ‘one’ thing,[b] let the heretics understand that He did not say ‘one’ person. For one placed in the neuter, intimates the social concord, not the personal unity. . . . Moreover, that He says one, has reference to the agreement, and to the identity of judgment, and to the loving association itself, as reasonably the Father and Son are one in agreement, in love, and in affection.”—Treatise Concerning the Trinity, chapter 27.

“The Father is greater than I am.”—JOHN 14:28.

Irenaeus (c. 130-200 C.E.): “We may learn through Him [Christ] that the Father is above all things. For ‘the Father,’ says He, ‘is greater than I.’ The Father, therefore, has been declared by our Lord to excel with respect to knowledge.”—Against Heresies, Book II, chapter 28.8.

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—JOHN 17:3.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 C.E.): “To know the eternal God, the giver of what is eternal, and by knowledge and comprehension to possess God, who is first, and highest, and one, and good. . . . He then who would live the true life is enjoined first to know Him ‘whom no one knows, except the Son reveal (Him).’ (Matt. 11:27) Next is to be learned the greatness of the Saviour after Him.”—Who Is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved? VII, VIII.

“One God and Father of all persons, who is over all and through all and in all.”—EPHESIANS 4:6.

Irenaeus: “And thus one God the Father is declared, who is above all, and through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ.”—Against Heresies, Book V, chapter 18.2.

These early writers clearly understood these verses to describe the Father as supreme, over everything and everyone including Jesus Christ. Their comments give no hint that they believed in a Trinity.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1993766

 

[LittleNipper]

The Plain Sense of Scripture

Would we say that the idea that Jesus was a god and not the same as God the Creator is contrary to Johannine (that is, the apostle John’s) thought, as well as Christian thought as a whole? Let us examine some Bible texts that refer to Jesus and to God, and we will see what some commentators who lived before the Athanasian Creed was formulated thought about those texts.

“I and the Father are one.”—JOHN 10:30.

Novatian (c. 200-258 C.E.) commented: “Since He said ‘one’ thing,[b] let the heretics understand that He did not say ‘one’ person. For one placed in the neuter, intimates the social concord, not the personal unity. . . . Moreover, that He says one, has reference to the agreement, and to the identity of judgment, and to the loving association itself, as reasonably the Father and Son are one in agreement, in love, and in affection.”—Treatise Concerning the Trinity, chapter 27.

“The Father is greater than I am.”—JOHN 14:28.

Irenaeus (c. 130-200 C.E.): “We may learn through Him [Christ] that the Father is above all things. For ‘the Father,’ says He, ‘is greater than I.’ The Father, therefore, has been declared by our Lord to excel with respect to knowledge.”—Against Heresies, Book II, chapter 28.8.

“This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ.”—JOHN 17:3.

Clement of Alexandria (c. 150-215 C.E.): “To know the eternal God, the giver of what is eternal, and by knowledge and comprehension to possess God, who is first, and highest, and one, and good. . . . He then who would live the true life is enjoined first to know Him ‘whom no one knows, except the Son reveal (Him).’ (Matt. 11:27) Next is to be learned the greatness of the Saviour after Him.”—Who Is the Rich Man That Shall Be Saved? VII, VIII.

“One God and Father of all persons, who is over all and through all and in all.”—EPHESIANS 4:6.

Irenaeus: “And thus one God the Father is declared, who is above all, and through all, and in all. The Father is indeed above all, and He is the Head of Christ.”—Against Heresies, Book V, chapter 18.2.

These early writers clearly understood these verses to describe the Father as supreme, over everything and everyone including Jesus Christ. Their comments give no hint that they believed in a Trinity.
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1993766

And a CHRISTIAN knows that there are no other GOD's, and CHRIST JESUS then couldn't be one of them. CHRIST is not a created being. CHRIST is not an angel. CHRIST was and is not now Michael the Archangel.

 

[Daisy]

no other GOD's,

Other Gods? No...

Other gods...youbetcha...go ahead, tell me I'm wrong...tell me the Bible is wrong...

In refuting their false charge, Jesus asks: “Is it not written in your Law [at Psalm 82:6], ‘I said: “You are gods”’? If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came . . . do you say to me whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?”—John 10:34-36.

Yes, the Scriptures call even unjust human judges “gods.” So how can these Jews fault Jesus for saying “I am God’s Son”? He points to something that should convince them: “If I am not doing the works of my Father, do not believe me. But if I am doing them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, so that you may come to know and may continue knowing that the Father is in union with me and I am in union with the Father.”—John 10:37, 38.

"The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy; for you, although being a man, make yourself a god.”  Jesus answered them: “Is it not written igods: Or “godlike ones.” Jesus here quotes from Ps 82:6, where the Hebrew word ʼelo·himʹ (gods) is used of men, human judges in Israel. They were “gods” in their capacity as representatives of and spokesmen for God. Similarly, Moses was told that he was to “serve as God” to Aaron and to Pharaoh.—Ex 4:16, ftn; 7:1, ftn.n your Law, ‘I said: “You are gods”’?  If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came—and yet the scripture cannot be nullified—" John 10:33-3https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/b/r1/lp-e/nwtsty/43/10#s=34&study=discover&v=43:10:34-43:10:35



"the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one." 1 John 5:19

"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 1 Corinthians 8:5

"among whom the god of this system of things has blinded the minds of the unbelievers," 2 Corinthians 4:4

 

[LittleNipper]

Bible & Theology

5 Reasons the Trinity Matters So Muc Kaitlin Febles​

We’re told it’s difficult to describe, impossible to understand, and not even found in the Bible. So why should we care about the Trinity, aside from the fact that it’s true?

Much has already been written and said about why the doctrine of the Trinity is so central. But the essential importance of understanding God as triune—one God eternally existing in the three persons of Father, Son, and Spirit—bears repeating.



Here are five reasons why it matters greatly that we believe this doctrine.

1. The Trinity Distinguishes Our God​

Many assume Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God. In reality, Muslims and non-Messianic Jews profess a mono-personal god, rather than the tri-personal God of the Trinity. This distinction is critical.

A mono-personal god could not be eternally loving and gracious. Before he created the world, he couldn’t have loved; at least, he could have only loved himself. He would best be defined in his solitude by self-serving egotism. That leads to a worldview prioritizing power, as opposed to our Christian worldview that considers love the most important commandment and enduring virtue (Matt. 22:36–40; 1 Cor. 13:13).

We believe God never has or will change. We also believe God is love (1 John 4:8). The Trinity explains how God was love before he created. The three persons divinely and eternally loved one another. He has always, in himself, been defined by love.

At the same time, our tri-personal God must be distinguished from polytheism—for example, the Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva of Hinduism. We do not worship three gods. The Lord our God is one (Deut. 6:4).

As world religions continue to multiply, and against a rising tide of universalism, this distinctive will only become more essential to how we communicate our faith.

Here is where to find the complete article: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/5-reasons-trinity/

 

[LittleNipper]

2. The Trinity Makes Sense of the Old Testament​

The early church coined the term “Trinity” in the late second century to articulate the mystery revealed by Christ (Eph. 1:9; 3:3). But the first glimpses of plurality within God are recorded in the Old Testament, not the New.

From the first chapter, the Spirit of God is introduced (Gen. 1:2), and God refers to himself by the plural pronouns “we” and “us” (Gen. 1:26–27; 3:22; 11:7; Isa. 6:8). While the oneness of God is strongly emphasized, the word used to describe God as “one” in Hebrew scripture, ehūd, is an elastic term that can be used to describe unity in diversity. Similarly, “Elohim” and “Adonai,” used for God in the Old Testament, are plural terms, perhaps foreshadowing a reality not yet fully revealed.

More than 100 times, the Old Testament mentions the Spirit of God. It also teaches of a coming defeater of the enemy (Gen. 3:15), a Son of Man appearing with the Ancient of Days (Dan. 7:9–14), a Son to be revered (Ps. 2:11–12), a virgin birth of a child called “Mighty God” and “Everlasting Father” (Isa. 9:6), and the angel of the Lord acknowledged as God himself (Gen. 16:10–13; 22:12–16; Ex. 3:1–6; Judg. 2:1–4; 6:11–24; Zech. 12:8).

Drawing from Exodus alone, the Gospels identify Christ as the “I Am” (Ex. 3:14; John 8:56–58), the rock in the wilderness (Ex. 17; 1 Cor. 10:4), and the one who saved the Israelites from Egypt (Jude 5). The risen Christ interpreted things concerning himself throughout all Scripture (Luke 24:27) and even used Psalm 110:1 to prove the Jews’ innate assumption of a second person in the Godhead.

Here is where to find the complete article: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/5-reasons-trinity/​

 

[Daisy]

Bible & Theology

5 Reasons the Trinity Matters So Muc Kaitlin Febles​

We’re told it’s difficult to describe, impossible to understand, and not even found in the Bible. So why should we care about the Trinity, aside from the fact that it’s true?

Much has already been written and said about why the doctrine of the Trinity is so central. But the essential importance of understanding God as triune—one God eternally existing in the three persons of Father, Son, and Spirit—bears repeating.



Here are five reasons why it matters greatly that we believe this doctrine.

1. The Trinity Distinguishes Our God​

Many assume Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God. In reality, Muslims and non-Messianic Jews profess a mono-personal god, rather than the tri-personal God of the Trinity. This distinction is critical.

A mono-personal god could not be eternally loving and gracious. Before he created the world, he couldn’t have loved; at least, he could have only loved himself. He would best be defined in his solitude by self-serving egotism. That leads to a worldview prioritizing power, as opposed to our Christian worldview that considers love the most important commandment and enduring virtue (Matt. 22:36–40; 1 Cor. 13:13).

We believe God never has or will change. We also believe God is love (1 John 4:8). The Trinity explains how God was love before he created. The three persons divinely and eternally loved one another. He has always, in himself, been defined by love.

At the same time, our tri-personal God must be distinguished from polytheism—for example, the Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva of Hinduism. We do not worship three gods. The Lord our God is one (Deut. 6:4).

As world religions continue to multiply, and against a rising tide of universalism, this distinctive will only become more essential to how we communicate our faith.

Here is where to find the complete article: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/5-reasons-trinity/

Yeah, didn't think so...

 

[LittleNipper]

3. The Trinity Provides a Framework for the New Testament​

Christ was not a created human who conjectured a self-originated way of coming to God. While he was fully human, he was also fully God, as he had been from the beginning (John 1:1) and will be forever. This is difficult to explain. But the Trinity helps.

It also helps explain passages in which all three members of the Trinity appear. The Father sends the Spirit in the Son’s name (John 14:26). All the Father has is the Son’s, and the Spirit declares these things to us (John 16:15). The Father sends the Spirit of the Son into our hearts (Rom. 8:9; Gal. 4:6; Titus 3:6). We baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Spirit (Matt. 28:19). Through the Son, we have access in one Spirit to the Father (Eph. 2:18). And the Father’s love, the Son’s grace, and the Spirit’s fellowship are always with us (2 Cor. 13:14).

4. The Trinity Is the Basis of Our Relationship to God and His Church​

Because the Father, Son, and Spirit were perfectly unified before the creation of the world—loving, serving, and glorifying one another—we can be confident God didn’t create us out of a needy desire to fill an inner relational void. That is good news for us, because we never could do that.

He was perfectly fulfilled without us. Yet he lovingly chose to create us, inviting us in to enjoy (and be fulfilled by) the overflow of all God is within himself. As the church, we are the household of the Father (1 Tim. 3:15), the bride of the Son (2 Cor. 11:2; Eph. 5:27; Rev. 19:7), and the temple of the Spirit (1 Cor. 6:19).

God did not create us out of a needy desire to fill an inner relational void. That is good news for us, because we never could do that.

United with him in love, so too we are united with his people—those with whom we are built together in the Son to be a dwelling place of the Father by the Spirit (Eph. 2:22). As the three persons of the Trinity are mysteriously united as one, so all the tribes, tongues, and nations of God’s people (Rev. 7:9) are one in him.

Here is where to find the complete article: https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/5-reasons-trinity/​