Did the Bible have any impact on the world's morality?

[ataraxia]

Looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of the Bible, both OT and NT, was there much of a difference in how people behaved? One would think that if it was any new information there on how to behave (whether things like the 10 commandments from the OT or any NT teachings), there would have been some kind of measurable difference in how people acted.

But looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of these books, even among the communities who were reading these scriptures with attention, it seems to me there were no real broad general changes in the morality of the people. There were just as much good and bad people and good and bad behavior as before.

Is this true? Can you make a convincing case that these books changed how people were generally behaving? Was for example, the teachings that you shouldn't kill or commit adultery or steal, or to love your neighbor and watch out for the poor and vulnerable in your society, new information, or did people know at the time of the revelation of these things that these were virtues and ideals to strive for?

If it's true that these teachings DID change humanity, is it true then that behavior and acts matter to God, or do you still think it's all just a matter of grace?

If you don't think it's true that these teachings made a difference, why not? Is it because humanity is so fallen it doesn't matter if you show them the right way to behave? Is that's the case, why even reveal these books in the first place, or read them in the first place? If we have already been destined for heaven or hell, then what's the point of reading about how to behave, or even try?

These are all just questions that have been coming up for me. Thanks in advance for answering!

 

[MamboDervish]

It seems to me that any study of recorded human history would reveal the bible's influence to be a wash. By that I mean, just as much good as bad. Just as much peace as violence. Just as much clarity as confusion.

 

[KingLeo]

Morals are merely the agreed upon norms of a society and as such they have changed over time and vary by locations. The bible and other religious writings did not create morals, if anything they have only borrowed them and incorporated them into their beliefs.

 

[ataraxia]

Morals are merely the agreed upon norms of a society and as such they have changed over time and vary by locations. The bible and other religious writings did not create morals, if anything they have only borrowed them and incorporated them into their beliefs.

Yes. My impression is that the laws of morality of a society come from the same place its laws of grammar come from: society itself. Once created, it has a tendency to get projected to divine authority.

Here is sort of the predecessor of the 10 commandments: the Babylonian Hammurabi's code (the first known written set of laws). It shows the king Hammurabi receiving those laws from the god Marduk (the seated figure). It basically seems to be Hammurabi saying that "look, I didn't come up with this stuff myself- it has come from a divine source". It gives sanction and authority to the laws. But humans like Hammurabi created the laws first for pragmatic considerations of trying to create a functional and ordered society. Their projection to Marduk happened after the fact. It was not going the other way.

 

[BirdinHand]

The Bible is wrought with immorality and horrible acts.

And that's before we dive into what is/isn't included in the text

 

[WillyPete]

Back when folks were almost entirely illiterate, and their small community was the entire world to them, and everyone knew each other, I imagine it had more of an impression.

Nowadays religion is just another channel of entertainment competing with all the rest, and losing ground because they think they're too big to fail.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

The world's morality? I don't know.

However, there are some interesting things I've gleaned from study.

Take the Ten Commandments. The first four deal with man's relationship with God. The last six deal with man's relationship with his fellow man.

Jesus said the two greatest commandments are love god and love your fellow man. That encapsulates all Ten Commandments.

Has that ever stopped a war? Probably not. But I don't see how one can start a war while simultaneously obeying these commandments.

 

[MamboDervish]

Yes. My impression is that the laws of morality of a society come from the same place its laws of grammar come from: society itself. Once created, it has a tendency to get projected to divine authority.

Here is sort of the predecessor of the 10 commandments: the Babylonian Hammurabi's code (the first known written set of laws). It shows the king Hammurabi receiving those laws from the god Marduk (the seated figure). It basically seems to be Hammurabi saying that "look, I didn't come up with this stuff myself- it has come from a divine source". It gives sanction and authority to the laws. But humans like Hammurabi created the laws first for pragmatic considerations of trying to create a functional and ordered society. Their projection to Marduk happened after the fact. It was not going the other way.

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[NolanVoyd]

Looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of the Bible, both OT and NT, was there much of a difference in how people behaved? One would think that if it was any new information there on how to behave (whether things like the 10 commandments from the OT or any NT teachings), there would have been some kind of measurable difference in how people acted.

But looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of these books, even among the communities who were reading these scriptures with attention, it seems to me there were no real broad general changes in the morality of the people. There were just as much good and bad people and good and bad behavior as before.

Is this true? Can you make a convincing case that these books changed how people were generally behaving? Was for example, the teachings that you shouldn't kill or commit adultery or steal, or to love your neighbor and watch out for the poor and vulnerable in your society, new information, or did people know at the time of the revelation of these things that these were virtues and ideals to strive for?

If it's true that these teachings DID change humanity, is it true then that behavior and acts matter to God, or do you still think it's all just a matter of grace?

If you don't think it's true that these teachings made a difference, why not? Is it because humanity is so fallen it doesn't matter if you show them the right way to behave? Is that's the case, why even reveal these books in the first place, or read them in the first place? If we have already been destined for heaven or hell, then what's the point of reading about how to behave, or even try?

These are all just questions that have been coming up for me. Thanks in advance for answering!

The Bible is responsible for more horrific immoral violence than probably any other factor.

 

[ataraxia]

The world's morality? I don't know.

However, there are some interesting things I've gleaned from study.

Take the Ten Commandments. The first four deal with man's relationship with God. The last six deal with man's relationship with his fellow man.

Jesus said the two greatest commandments are love god and love your fellow man. That encapsulates all Ten Commandments.

Has that ever stopped a war? Probably not. But I don't see how one can start a war while simultaneously obeying these commandments.

But statistically speaking, it hasn't seemed to make any difference in anyone's behavior- even those who supposedly had these teachings as the foundation of their society.

Did God know it wasn't going to make much of a difference? If so, why then were they revealed?

And if it's not about acts at all, as many Christians claim, but about just saying you believe (or just grace, as other claim), why then even bother to have these instructions for behavior revealed? It seems like quite the exercise in futility.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

But statistically speaking, it hasn't seemed to make any difference in anyone's behavior- even those who supposedly had these teachings as the foundation of their society.

Did God know it wasn't going to make much of a difference? If so, why then were they revealed?

And if it's not about acts at all, as many Christians claim, but about just saying you believe (or just grace, as other claim), why then even bother to have these instructions for behavior revealed? It seems like quite the exercise in futility.

To understand this, we have to go back to the original audience, the people for whom these were written, and take it all in context. The Israelites were banished to wander in the wilderness for 40 years. The significance of this is the first people who left Egyptian bondage were slaves, some for their entire lives. They had a slave's mentality, used to defeat and submission, they were not fit to take and occupy the promised land. By wandering in the wilderness for forty years, it meant that most of the original people who were freed were now dead. The majority of those who were alive had spent their entire lives as nomads, living off the land. They were a tougher people.

In addition to the Ten Commandments, Moses laid out a whole bunch of other laws, many of which dealt with day-to-day life. These were not for noblemen or scholars. For all intents and purposes, they weren't much above ignorant illiterate savages. It was up to Moses to keep these people alive and thriving as a society. Therefore he laid down laws that dealt with such things a personal hygiene, dietary restrictions, familial relationships, etc. All designed to ensure the survival of the Israelites as a nation.

Yes, by today's standards, particularly regarding such things as science, these ancient rules and regulations seem quaint and even foolish. Nevertheless, they had a purpose at the time, and for the record, they worked well to accomplish the goal.

 

[Ginger Ale]

It seems to me that any study of recorded human history would reveal the bible's influence to be a wash. By that I mean, just as much good as bad. Just as much peace as violence. Just as much clarity as confusion.

I agree, people are saved in Gods name, and people are killed in Gods name. At the end of the day, human beings are just like any other animal.

 

[tshade]

Looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of the Bible, both OT and NT, was there much of a difference in how people behaved? One would think that if it was any new information there on how to behave (whether things like the 10 commandments from the OT or any NT teachings), there would have been some kind of measurable difference in how people acted.

But looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of these books, even among the communities who were reading these scriptures with attention, it seems to me there were no real broad general changes in the morality of the people. There were just as much good and bad people and good and bad behavior as before.

?????? Oh----you were reporting thousands of years before Christ, or what??

Is this true? Can you make a convincing case that these books changed how people were generally behaving? Was for example, the teachings that you shouldn't kill or commit adultery or steal, or to love your neighbor and watch out for the poor and vulnerable in your society, new information, or did people know at the time of the revelation of these things that these were virtues and ideals to strive for?

Sure , but the Bible spread it further and better

If it's true that these teachings DID change humanity, is it true then that behavior and acts matter to God, or do you still think it's all just a matter of grace?

God knows your heart

If you don't think it's true that these teachings made a difference, why not? Is it because humanity is so fallen it doesn't matter if you show them the right way to behave? Is that's the case, why even reveal these books in the first place, or read them in the first place? If we have already been destined for heaven or hell, then what's the point of reading about how to behave, or even try?

Man was never perfect

These are all just questions that have been coming up for me. Thanks in advance for answering!

 

[bongsaway]

Looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of the Bible, both OT and NT, was there much of a difference in how people behaved? One would think that if it was any new information there on how to behave (whether things like the 10 commandments from the OT or any NT teachings), there would have been some kind of measurable difference in how people acted.

But looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of these books, even among the communities who were reading these scriptures with attention, it seems to me there were no real broad general changes in the morality of the people. There were just as much good and bad people and good and bad behavior as before.

Is this true? Can you make a convincing case that these books changed how people were generally behaving? Was for example, the teachings that you shouldn't kill or commit adultery or steal, or to love your neighbor and watch out for the poor and vulnerable in your society, new information, or did people know at the time of the revelation of these things that these were virtues and ideals to strive for?

If it's true that these teachings DID change humanity, is it true then that behavior and acts matter to God, or do you still think it's all just a matter of grace?

If you don't think it's true that these teachings made a difference, why not? Is it because humanity is so fallen it doesn't matter if you show them the right way to behave? Is that's the case, why even reveal these books in the first place, or read them in the first place? If we have already been destined for heaven or hell, then what's the point of reading about how to behave, or even try?

These are all just questions that have been coming up for me. Thanks in advance for answering!

Are we still killing each other worldwide? Hope that helps to answer the question.

 

[Exquisitor]

Looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of the Bible, both OT and NT, was there much of a difference in how people behaved? One would think that if it was any new information there on how to behave (whether things like the 10 commandments from the OT or any NT teachings), there would have been some kind of measurable difference in how people acted.

But looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of these books, even among the communities who were reading these scriptures with attention, it seems to me there were no real broad general changes in the morality of the people. There were just as much good and bad people and good and bad behavior as before.

Is this true? Can you make a convincing case that these books changed how people were generally behaving? Was for example, the teachings that you shouldn't kill or commit adultery or steal, or to love your neighbor and watch out for the poor and vulnerable in your society, new information, or did people know at the time of the revelation of these things that these were virtues and ideals to strive for?

If it's true that these teachings DID change humanity, is it true then that behavior and acts matter to God, or do you still think it's all just a matter of grace?

If you don't think it's true that these teachings made a difference, why not? Is it because humanity is so fallen it doesn't matter if you show them the right way to behave? Is that's the case, why even reveal these books in the first place, or read them in the first place? If we have already been destined for heaven or hell, then what's the point of reading about how to behave, or even try?

These are all just questions that have been coming up for me. Thanks in advance for answering!

Paul says in Romans that the law is written in nature.

Man innately knows of God and morality, you have the Indian cult, morality would be the same, perhaps the application somewhat different.

 

[ataraxia]

Paul says in Romans that the law is written in nature.

Man innately knows of God and morality, you have the Indian cult, morality would be the same, perhaps the application somewhat different.

So what’s the point of telling people something they should already know?

Especially if you don’t think anyone’s behavior makes any difference anyway? AND everyone was doomed to not be able to do it perfectly anyway even if they tried?

It seems a little internally contradictory. It seems like Christianity started out being about getting people to behave, like other religions, but became more interested in growing adherents and power than just behavior- and so that’s where this emphasis on just proclaiming your belief (read: declaring that you are part of the tribe) took precedence over getting people to behave.

 

[btthegreat]

Of course its had an impact and its impossible to measure it. When we talk about events in human history, we are actually only talking about that comparatively minor percentage of events that get recorded in history. For those who are christians, there will be hundreds of times every year when they chose to do something or chose not to do something, to say something or chose not to say something based at least partially on what they gleened from reading scripture each day, or hearing scripture each Sunday. They will have wanted to do what 'God' wanted, and they may well have looked in that book for answers. Now its probably not nearly as often as they claim to have been influenced, but it will still have made a consequential impact on what they did. Some of those decisions will be life changing ones, and some of those will impact their children and their grandchildren. That is impact.

 

[tosca1]

Looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of the Bible, both OT and NT, was there much of a difference in how people behaved? One would think that if it was any new information there on how to behave (whether things like the 10 commandments from the OT or any NT teachings), there would have been some kind of measurable difference in how people acted.

But looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of these books, even among the communities who were reading these scriptures with attention, it seems to me there were no real broad general changes in the morality of the people. There were just as much good and bad people and good and bad behavior as before.

Is this true? Can you make a convincing case that these books changed how people were generally behaving? Was for example, the teachings that you shouldn't kill or commit adultery or steal, or to love your neighbor and watch out for the poor and vulnerable in your society, new information, or did people know at the time of the revelation of these things that these were virtues and ideals to strive for?

If it's true that these teachings DID change humanity, is it true then that behavior and acts matter to God, or do you still think it's all just a matter of grace?

If you don't think it's true that these teachings made a difference, why not? Is it because humanity is so fallen it doesn't matter if you show them the right way to behave? Is that's the case, why even reveal these books in the first place, or read them in the first place? If we have already been destined for heaven or hell, then what's the point of reading about how to behave, or even try?

These are all just questions that have been coming up for me. Thanks in advance for answering!

Well - surely it has an impact on the world.

That, there are many bad people, does not mean it has not.
Bad people will always exists! That's in the Bible!

Just the fact that the Bible is still very much relevant today (just look at the politics right now in the USA) - it is still making an impact!

How Does The Bible Influence Society?

The Bible is a book like no other. The sacred text can arguably be considered the most influential book ever published. “The influence of the Bible is worldwide,” wrote Arthur Pink, the Christian evangelist. “Its mighty power has affected every

www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com

 

[ataraxia]

Well - surely it has an impact on the world.

That, there are many bad people, does not mean it has not.
Bad people will always exists! That's in the Bible!

Just the fact that the Bible is still very much relevant today (just look at the politics right now in the USA) - it is still making an impact!

How Does The Bible Influence Society?

The Bible is a book like no other. The sacred text can arguably be considered the most influential book ever published. “The influence of the Bible is worldwide,” wrote Arthur Pink, the Christian evangelist. “Its mighty power has affected every

www.whatchristianswanttoknow.com

Yes, there are STILL lots of bad people for whom I agree no amount of instruction would help. It’s a little how like when a new medication becomes available, there are some people who are so sick that no amount of it is going to help. Conversely, some of the patients are going to recover spontaneously, even without the medication.

But that’s why you have the field of statistics. When the medication is being studied to see if it helps, you look to see if there is a statistically significant difference between patients to whom it is given vs those to whom it’s not.

So speaking from such a statistical perspective, we should have seen a difference in the behavior of people who believe in the the Bible vs those who don’t- both geographically throughout the world, and even throughout time and history in the same place.

We don’t see that. In fact, a case might even be made for the opposite effect.

For example, the Italian poet Plutarch is considered one of the seminal figures in the historical transition from the Dark Ages to the Renaissance in Europe. One of the seminal events in that transition was his discovery, in the mid 1300s, of original manuscripts from the ancient pagan Roman philosopher and legislator Cicero. When he first read them, he was absolutely astounded at the level of sophistication, knowledge, and virtue reflected in those writings, and he lamented how backwards, ignorant, and corrupt his own time was in comparison to the kind of people and culture who could produce such thought and learning.

(Cont’d next post)

 

[ataraxia]

(Continued from previous post)

The contrast between those writings and his own time led him to coin the term “dark ages” to refer to his own time in comparison. That started the “looking back” to the philosophy, art, and literature of the ancient classical world that led to such a flowering of art, thought, and culture that we now call the Renaissance.

That didn’t happen by people reading their Bible more. The middle ages was already completely dominated by the church in every aspect and facet of society. It came from people throwing off its yoke and realizing that humans could do better than just reading and re-reading that book for guidance- the beginning of learning to think and strive for themselves. They realized that when you began to look beyond just the Bible, and begin to think and strive for yourself, it’s amazing what you can do- the whole idea of Renaissance “humanism”.

Initially, this effort was not seen as going against the Bible, but just a realization that accomplishments could be made outside of just reading the Bible for guidance , which had been the case in the Middle Ages- but realizing that many interesting new things could be accomplished without such guidance by ourselves and our own efforts.

But as cultural and scientific accomplishments began to explode, they came into direct conflict with what had been foundational church doctrine for centuries: for example, the teaching that the Earth was the center of the universe (supported by scripture, and besides, where else is God going to put the culmination of his creation, man, right?). Other crazy new ideas like the rights of women to have political voice in society began to emerge.

The church tried to fight these new developments as heresy at first, but the evidence eventually became so overwhelming that it had to learn to “properly reinterpret scripture” to match the new human scientific developments and ethics.

So it seems to me that not only has the Bible not been a guide, but more like a lead weight. It was just a projection of one people and one groups ethics to a heaven of eternity and unquestionable ultimate truths. But that just let the stagnation and closed mindedness for a thousand years. We got to where we are in the modern world not because we read the Bible more, but because we learn to lay it aside and think it strive for ourselves.

Even the founding fathers of this country, in creating American democracy, knew of this stagnating annd stifling effect of the Bible. That’s why they were so eager to make sure they kept it out of the new system of government they were creating.

“During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution..What influence in fact have ecclesiastical establishments had on Civil Society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the Civil authority; in many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny: in no instance have they been seen the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wished to subvert the public liberty, may have found an established Clergy conveient auxiliaries. A just Government instituted to secure & perpetuate it needs them not.”
-James Madison

“Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness, with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon, than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind; and, for my part, I sincerely detest it, as I detest everything that is cruel.”
-Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

 

[samiam5211]

Looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of the Bible, both OT and NT, was there much of a difference in how people behaved? One would think that if it was any new information there on how to behave (whether things like the 10 commandments from the OT or any NT teachings), there would have been some kind of measurable difference in how people acted.

But looking at the history of the world before and after the revelation of these books, even among the communities who were reading these scriptures with attention, it seems to me there were no real broad general changes in the morality of the people. There were just as much good and bad people and good and bad behavior as before.

Is this true? Can you make a convincing case that these books changed how people were generally behaving? Was for example, the teachings that you shouldn't kill or commit adultery or steal, or to love your neighbor and watch out for the poor and vulnerable in your society, new information, or did people know at the time of the revelation of these things that these were virtues and ideals to strive for?

If it's true that these teachings DID change humanity, is it true then that behavior and acts matter to God, or do you still think it's all just a matter of grace?

If you don't think it's true that these teachings made a difference, why not? Is it because humanity is so fallen it doesn't matter if you show them the right way to behave? Is that's the case, why even reveal these books in the first place, or read them in the first place? If we have already been destined for heaven or hell, then what's the point of reading about how to behave, or even try?

These are all just questions that have been coming up for me. Thanks in advance for answering!

None of the non religious lessons in the Bible were new. They were all borrowed from more ancient civilizations.

 

[longview]

Religion, all religion for the most part, encourage people to live to a higher moral standard,
not because it is right, but because some deity has dictated it.
For good or bad, this has encouraged billions of people to attempt to live to some moral code.
At it's most fundamental level, it is an appeal to authority.

 

[ataraxia]

Religion, all religion for the most part, encourage people to live to a higher moral standard,
not because it is right, but because some deity has dictated it.
For good or bad, this has encouraged billions of people to attempt to live to some moral code.
At its most fundamental level, it is an appeal to authority.

This is true, and this sort of “father figure, voice of external moral authority” approach may be a good for large masses of people without any education or ability for critical thinking. “Do what you’re told or you’re going to get a whooping” often works well- especially in a society where things just don’t change for long stretches of time.

However, it can be a liability for a technologically and culturally dynamic society, constantly being confronted with new ideas and change requiring critical and analytic thinking. It tends to lead to closemindedness and stagnation- an inability to confront and deal with novel situations, observations, and ideas.

 

[longview]

This is true, and this sort of “father figure, voice of external moral authority” approach may be a good for large masses of people without any education or ability for critical thinking. “Do what you’re told or you’re going to get a whooping” often works well- especially in a society where things just don’t change for long stretches of time.

However, it can be a liability for a technologically and culturally dynamic society, constantly being confronted with new ideas and change requiring critical and analytic thinking. It tends to lead to closemindedness and stagnation- an inability to confront and deal with novel situations, observations, and ideas.

I am not speaking about the low level stuff, and not sure I agree with that, because unless a person has been suppressed,
They do not really understand and appreciate what being free looks like.
At a high level, it is simple things, treat others like you would like to be treated (excluding masochism ).
If someone loans you a tool, return it is as good or better condition than when you got it.
Respect honest labor, people know things about their jobs you could never guess.

 

[ataraxia]

I am not speaking about the low level stuff, and not sure I agree with that, because unless a person has been suppressed,
They do not really understand and appreciate what being free looks like.
At a high level, it is simple things, treat others like you would like to be treated (excluding masochism ).
If someone loans you a tool, return it is as good or better condition than when you got it.
Respect honest labor, people know things about their jobs you could never guess.

Do people really need religion to tell them that killing others or stealing from them is wrong? Or to tell them those exceptional situations where those things may be sometimes be called for?