generally agree, but have a bit of a different take.That is a good point you raise. I think poverty, while not necessarily a direct cause on an individual basis, certainly helps spur radical ideology in general (I'm not just thinking of radical Islamism, but other instances as well). Then after a time when that type of ideology becomes more entrenched in certain sectors of society (even of if those sectors are doing ok financially), middle class and wealthy people can be affected by it.
You are the one "ignorantly and naively misapplying" your bigoted views of Muslims and "making silly, stupid, and asinine assumptions" about me, what my views are and where I'm from.
Idiot
When have I ever said Muslims "somehow desire and value the same things that we in the West do"?
They might want security that comes with peace and non-corrupt government, a sense of self-worth that comes from being employed and able to support their family, like nearly everyone on the planet but their value are apparently different, as my values are different from yours.
Only Muslims commit "Islamic motivated violence", because only people who practice Islam are Muslims. Why the hell would a Buddhist or a Jew want to commit "Islamic motivated violence"?
If Islam is the single reason for the violence, why are not all Muslims up in arms or acting as suicide bombers.
Ever been to Malaysia, Brunei etc? Why are these relatively prosperous, Muslim countries peaceful?
When I bring them up you try and Excuse them away with Ridiculous excuses.
There's a Partial list below which should keep you busy though.
It's length alone however will betray the long list of excuses needed.
Maybe you can Start with the TWO Genocides in Sudan. The First (1983-2003) with a 'civil war' Killing 2,000,000 Christians and animists and displacing Millions more;
The second the more known/trendier Ethno-Religous Darfur, against the Muslim but BlackER Fur people by the more Arabo-Muslim NIF (National Islamic Front)/North.
And in those two countries.. who are Jews and Christians [coincidentally!] fighting? :^)
Would it be the same group the Hindus are fighing in India and Kashmir? How bout that!
I call it The Long Islamic Frontline.. and it works for ME, not you, to point it those two. Israel being just a tiny overpublicized spot on that line.
The Three I pointed to above.
East Timor, Thailand, philipppines you tried to excuse away
That's 7!
You already beat your own two, Brunei (LOL) and Malaysia.
But even (and here we go!) even in paces like 'moderate' Egypt The Copts are persecuted.
The Bahai's and others in Iran.
Saudi Arabia prohibits all other religions and even discriminates against Shia Muslims.
There's War in the Western Sahara/Mauritania et al.
200,000 have died in the Algerian Civil War.
Sharia Conflict/Muslim Violence in Nigeria.
And Ivory Coast and Chad and have similar but smaller violence.
Ethiopea/Eritrea.
Sudan (above)
Somalia
Azerbijan/Armenia.
The Balkans.
Daghestan, Chechnya, Ingushetia, etc.
India/Pak/Kashmir
I hear Bangladesh having some probs too.
Israel/Palestine
Lebanon is Dar al Harb, with a million Maronites gone.
Christians purged from most of the Muslim/arab world except those mentioned above and they on their way out.
Assad I's various Syrian massacres like Hama (20,000 .. a tough week)
Iran v Iraq and Iraq v Kuwait before us.
Afghanistan, we just Interrupted that one.
Sunni v Shia as we speak, and responsible for Tens of Thousands (if not 100,000+) already.
And lesser known stuff like the Separatist Uighurs in Western China.
those just added of course to the '3' above'
Philippines
Thailand
Indonesia
And Malaysia Is pretty decent but just a few weeks ago...
Do a Dozen Mosques get Torched in any Christian or Jewish countries?
And that's your Shining Star.
Just look.. It's there!
And that's by no means a complete list; Just this PM's recall.
It's got Names and numbers. Call it what you like, but you haven't dented it, tho Indonesia has improved.
Tho there's still persecution against Christians (and Ethnic Chinese).
And Conspicuously NO Comment from you onm the WSJ article:
The point being one can always use rationlalization, but the case is Overwhelming and Causation has been shown.
Bigoted views? You care to back up your infantile accusations? In other words, can you put your money where your mouth is and prove that anything I have ever said about Muslims and Islam isn't true and hence is illegitimate, and ignorance is no excuse.
Karl Rove said:There is no radicalism or extremism except in the context that Islam itself is a very radical and extreme ideology that uses religion as a mask to hide behind, and everyone that adheres to this radical and extremist ideology is a radical and extremist. Which means that practically every Muslim, if they are indeed devout, are radicals and extremists. However, don't take my word for it, educate yourself by studying the contents of the Koran, Hadith, and Sira and also learn how they are traditionally interpreted and understood by the vast majority of Muslims.
Or are you one of those hit and run adolescent and immature posters who is always throwing out silly juvenile allegations you can't possibly hope to back up. I'm guessing it's probably the latter.
You must be staring at yourself in the mirror!
Uhm...there you go again, projecting your own idiotic perceptions of the world and ignorantly assuming once again that Muslims think, act, want, and value the same things that we in the West do. I'm here to tell you that when it comes to Muslims and Islam you are about as ignorant as ignorant gets, yet like a juvenile you have the audacity to call me an idiot and label me a bigot. Wow...I'm impressed. You really should learn not to have preconceived notions.
I'm not surprised the reality that Muslims by far commit the most acts of terrorism in the world relative to any other religious or ethnic group despite the fact that as a group Muslims are far from being the only religious or ethnic group afflicted by poverty sailed right over your head, and that's because poverty and despair play absolutely no role whatsoever in motivating Muslims to violence. Not to mention, was the Christmas terrorist poverty stricken? How about the Fort Hood terrorist, was he also poverty stricken? How about the 9/11 terrorists, were they poverty stricken too? Is OBL poverty stricken?
While, of course, it is obviously true that some Muslims elect to become terrorists and partake in violent jihad, the vast over whelming majority of Muslims, on the other hand, elect to fulfill their holy obligation for jihad via non-violent stealth forms of jihad such as demographic conquest, campaigns of dawa, or using the money weapon to purchase influence, to name a few examples.
Why is Saudi Arabia relatively prosperous? It is because of a geologic accident of nature.
In any event, let me ask you a question since you brought up peaceful and moderate Malaysia...how many Christian churches did the peaceful and moderate Muslims in Malaysia burn down last month? How about in peaceful and moderate Indonesia?
the one difficulty that I see with this line of argument is that we see a whole swatch of middle class/upper middle class/upper class men joining/participating/leading these terrorist organizations.
I haven't done one, but I suspect that an analysis of the demographic sof terrorists would show young, male, reasonably well educated (maybe not for the suicide drones, but for everyone else) and in the top 3 quintiles of the population by income.
Not consistent with the poverty as a cause, but entirely consistent with lack of opportunity for status as a cause, no?
Easy. Done:
that isn't "isn't true and hence is illegitimate". In fact your post display a definite bigoted view of Islam.
Look who's "throwing out silly juvenile allegations you can't possibly hope to back up". All you've done so far is make silly assumptions about me. Take for example, I have more posts than you in this thread and have answered those addressed to me by mbig, before you even show your face again, and you are still thick skin enough to accuse me as being: "those hit and run adolescent". If you can't even see what's right in front of your face, I don't wonder why you hold such shallow views.
When you look into a mirror, what you see is what you are, now what do you see?
Clear enough
Except I didn't write: "Muslims think, act, want, and value the same things that we in the West do." So I still say that you are an idiot.
Still confusing extreme cases for the masses, I see. Well, can't help you much there. You either get the concept or you don't.
If you were to add up, in the last few years Americans might be up there in terms of violence, most of those they killed being Muslims. That obviously never entered your head
Wrong forum. The conspiracy forum might accept your bigoted conjectures, but not me.
And what about all the years when there was no problem and they live peacefully together?
See what I mean about confusing the outliers for the masses/average?
Well, if you can show that the average terrorist is a middle class, university going young men who have career prospect, I would of course have to accept that in fact poverty and employment is not a reason why they are drawn to the cult of the extremists and violence. The situation is complex, and even as I see that there are violence in other countries, it's not set in stone that those by Islamic extremists and those in other poor countries are of the same nature. I mean, it's wrong rationally to lump Chechnya or the Philippines with the likes of those terrorists trained in Yemen or from the Saudis etc. Their aim are different even if they all fall under the umbrella of Islam.
However that is not the book itself, but the way people use it.
Strawman Alert!It's "ridiculous" because you've already made up your mind. You are like a creationist. It's already "obvious" that God created everything, any other explanation are just silly. It's already "obvious" that Islam is the root of all evil, ..
Fallacious reasoning # 2 Alert! (perfect so far) .nonpareil said:The Khartoum government is obviously bent on the violence. But you conveniently hide the fact that the Christian South also has a part in the fight. It helps that there are oil involved. But let us put the blame where it belongs, with the Khartoum government. In WWII Hitler brought about even worse violence: Are you going to accept an arguement that WWII and Hitler was about Christianity being a violent religion?
Fallacious response #3. Still 'perfect'nonpareil said:So when Muslim engage in violence it's because of Islam. But when other groups engage in violence it's nothing to do with their religion, because they are fighting with the Muslims. Shows how you are really objective there.
NO, this is not what I wrote.nonpareil said:So "plenty of pure Blatant anti-Muslim violence" is trying to "excuse away"? You wrote it yourself, dude.
me said:The Three I pointed to above.
East Timor, Thailand, philipppines you tried to excuse away
Oh I think my math sjkills are pretty good.nonpareil said:See what I mean? You have no idea what goes into statistics.
I know, it's just a coincidence. When a good majority of the World smsulim countries have problems with persecution/intoleranceViolence/War... it's just a coincidence.nonpareil said:This is the tactic often used in this topic. You lump everything together. Discrimination become lumped with actual terrorist attacks/violence, sprinkled with basket cases in Africa like Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, to try to give the impression that the majority of Muslims are violent individuals. It doesn't even seems to matter that in some of those conflicts Muslims are the victims. Maybe that's how you really see it, then your judgement is clouded.
Gladly!nonpareil said:Take Egypt, Answer the question: If the majority of Muslims are violent, why do the Coptic Christians still able to live in Egypt, why aren't they wiped out?
At a certain point, Fallacious becomes Fel... never mind.nonpareil said:If the majority of Muslims are violent, why was a relative new religion able to be established in Iran and survive till today?
Have youy looked at their policies? They're not Just "despotic" they're despotic twoards other RELIGIONS.nonpareil said:I don't deny that the Saudis government is a despotic regime, have you ever thought that the problem is with the despotic tendency and not Islam?
We'll go past fallacious into Backfire now.nonpareil said:What about the violence on the Christian side of the Algerian war? Those on the Hindu side of the conflict in India and Bangladesh? The Buddhist side of the violence in Thailand? The Jewish side in Israel? The Russian (Christian) side of violence in the the Balkans and Chechnya?
Finally a clear demonstration of Violence having NOTHING to do with religion.nonpareil said:As a demonstration, I can compile the same list of violence America engaged in from the 20th century: WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq.
It's you who are drowning in Logiocal Fallacy. I can't even keep up there are so many in this post alone.nonpareil said:... Far from it, since both you and him are drowning in logical fallacy. If we pick up cases of seriously disturbing homicides and use that to judge humanity, we are all monsters. This is what is done here with Muslims. Sure there are atrocious things done by Muslims, but what about the other side?
Actually, for that reason it's not as good as the other site. Agreed (finally).nonpareil said:Because it's an opinion that's no better than that site.
That was MY OP. It it suggests that high population/low-median age makes these groups more susceptible to Radicalization/ISLAMIZATION, and is acknowledged, as I and the speaker said, an alternative opinion. (to the more accepted 'indoctrination')nonpareil said:The point is that the causation has not been shown. And in fact, an objective examination of the facts would not suggest that Islam is the only reason for the violence.
Strawman Alert!
Not the "root of all evil", but an inordinate problem with persecution/violence most places it exists.
I've "made up my mind" due to evidence such as, but not limited to, the list I posted previous.
In fact, even many frank and sober Muslims will admit there's a problem, while the West's numb-nuts PC crowd is still apologizing away.
Fallacious reasoning # 2 Alert! (perfect so far) .
Hitler wasn't acting in the name of Christianity.
He, unlike the NIF, didn't initiate the conflict by Invoking the Chrisrtian equivalent of "Sharia Law". (as in Sudan or Nigeria)
Fallacious response #3. Still 'perfect'
No one claimed that.
NO, this is not what I wrote.
We've gone beyond Fallacious into Dishonest quotes now.
mbig said:Inaccurate Excuses one and all. There's plenty of pure Blatant anti-Muslim violence in those three.
mbig said:The Three I pointed to above.
East Timor, Thailand, philipppines you tried to excuse away
Oh I think my math sjkills are pretty good.
Not to mention Logic.
Let's not forget when presented with the specter of inordinate Islamic violence, you Plopped up 2 countres. Brunei and Malyasia.
AS If that's some sort of rebuttal.
:^)
I know, it's just a coincidence. When a good majority of the World smsulim countries have problems with persecution/intoleranceViolence/War... it's just a coincidence.
Gladly!
How many times are you going to make Fallacious/NONSENSE responses. (I'm Losing count)
nonpareil Now alleging because the Copts are merely Persecuted, instead of Genocided/"wiped out", that means that Islam has no problem with other religions and things are just fine in Egypt!
nonpareil said:That's the thing, people who claim that Islam is the root of the violence have never been able to provide anything that approached "quantitatively demonstrable". Take a look at all the Muslim countries, very few have endorse or have the vast majority of their population engage in violence. If they were, there would be even more blood shed. Palestine, Somalia, Sudan, Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iraq can be said to be stuck in a very violence phase, but Yemen, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Iraq are an in/direct result of the US's anti-terror war, and Somalia and Sudan are basket cases. The rest of the countries may have culturally and politically objectionable practice to you, but for the most part people live in more or less in peace. Let's take the case of Iraq, if most Muslim Iraqis are violent individuals who want to kill infidels, a few hundred thousand US soldiers are not going to stop them. But obviously, they want just to live a peaceful live much as others in a country with a different religion. Take Egypt, if most of the Muslims were set against driving out and killing all the Coptic Christians they wouldn't be able to live there still after thousands of years, You people confuse the outliers for the masses. The problem is that you simply don't understand what statistics are made of.
At a certain point, Fallacious becomes Fel... never mind.
A Majority of Muslim governments or their citizens either, carry out, or condone discriminatory policies toward the Non-muslim minorities or conflict with non-muslim neighbors
Let's get our Claims straight.
So far every single response has been Mischaracterization or Fallacious/strawman.
Have youy looked at their policies? They're not Just "despotic" they're despotic twoards other RELIGIONS.
It was the 'prophet' after all who said "Two religions may not dwell on the Arabian Peninsula".
And so, NOT coincidentally, it's law that countrry.
We'll go past fallacious into Backfire now.
Funny, everyone ELSE just seems to be fighting with Islam. Russians, Christians, Hundus, Jews. Coincidence.
Oh and of course even doctrinaire Sunni are fighting Shias!
And let's not forget the New emerging frontier of Islamic Violence the 'Shia Crescent' (Iran, Nuclear Iran, and it's proxies) v the Arab/Gulf States and Israel.
Finally a clear demonstration of Violence having NOTHING to do with religion.
...in fact one of those was saving Bosnian Mulsims.
Alas, it was in defense of the USA and CANNOT be said of Islamic violence.
Ooops.
It's you who are drowning in Logiocal Fallacy. I can't even keep up there are so many in this post alone.
We are talking violence committted by Muslims/Muslim Governments in the NAME of Islam agianst non-Muslims (or other sect Muslims), not random crime.
People often use this inapt/Fallacious comparison using, ie, USA murder rates, that have Nothing to with Christianity.
While I AM pointing to violence in the name of Islam v other religions.
Actually, for that reason it's not as good as the other site. Agreed (finally).
Of course, the other site has names and numbers.
Also Untouched by you.
The only tangible piece of rebuttal you've tried is the naming of two relatively mild Islamic countries (One/Brunei a small rich, remote, sultanate!).. while complaining about fallacious logic.
I realise you don't get that. But that's the point of the OP, and which you have not been able to contradict at all. Because all you have is a list of exaggerations and half-truth, and you refuse to think deeper about why the conflicts arise. I think it's because you fear that you will have to accept that they are more complex than "Islam is violent", and it's easier to just say "other reasons are ridiculous".
That was MY OP. It it suggests that high population/low-median age makes these groups more susceptible to Radicalization/ISLAMIZATION, and is acknowledged, as I and the speaker said, an alternative opinion. (to the more accepted 'indoctrination')
But even then, does Not contradict that Islam is a problem, merely that young overpopulated Islamic countries are a WORSE problem.
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Yeah right! A legend in his own mind.
Really, then please explain how the following Koranic verses aren't radical and extremist in your book. Not to mention that the following Koranic verses were some of the last verses issued by Muhammad. Thus, meaning, per the principle of abrogation, which all sects of Islam fully embrace and all schools of Islamic jurisprudence fully endorse and advocate, the later verses issued by Muhammad in his career abrogate, that is supersede and replace, the verses issued earlier in Muhammad's career.
9:5. Then when the Sacred Months (the 1st, 7th, 11th, and 12th months of the Islamic calendar) have passed, then kill the Mushrikun {unbelievers} wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and prepare for them each and every ambush. But if they repent and perform As-Salat (Iqamat-as-Salat {the Islamic ritual prayers}), and give Zakat {alms}, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
8:39. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and polytheism: i.e. worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah Alone [in the whole of the world]. But if they cease (worshipping others besides Allah), then certainly, Allah is All-Seer of what they do.
8:67. It is not for a Prophet that he should have prisoners of war (and free them with ransom) until he had made a great slaughter (among his enemies) in the land. You desire the good of this world (i.e. the money of ransom for freeing the captives), but Allah desires (for you) the Hereafter. And Allah is All-Mighty, All-Wise.
9:29. Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day, nor forbid that which has been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger and those who acknowledge not the religion of truth (i.e. Islam) among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
9:33. It is He {Allah} Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it superior over all religions even though the Mushrikun (polytheists, pagans, idolaters, disbelievers in the Oneness of Allah) hate (it).
You see Muhammad's early career as a prophet began very inauspiciously, as in the first half of his career in Mecca Muhammad was only able to attract about a hundred followers. However, after the Hirja, Muhammad's migration to Medina after being banished from Mecca, his career as a prophet began to really take off, as Muhammad morphed from wannabe holy prophet, to brigand robbing caravans and then to eventually becoming a very powerful warlord, destroying many kafir infidel villages in the process.
As a matter of fact, the Hirja as an event in Islam marks the beginning of the Islamic calender, as Muhammad's early career in Mecca before the Hirja, when Muhammad was a very unsuccessful prophet who could only attract approximately 100 followers who were the outcast and misfits of society, doesn't even count as for as Islam and Muslims are concerned.
Therefore, all the Koranic verses issued during that period, which includes all of the peaceful verses of the Koran and the very same exact verses that Muslims love to cite to deceive useful idiot kafir infidels, have been abrogated by the verses issued later on in Muhammad's career, when he was a strong and very powerful warlord.
Moreover, the Koran unlike the Bible is believed to be the uncreated words of Allah as delivered by Muhammad, Allah's final messenger, and as such it is immutable and cannot ever be replaced or changed, because Muhammad was Allah's final messenger whose message also supersedes all the prophets that preceded him.
Not only that but Islam as opposed to all other religions is a religion of submission. In fact, the word Islam in Arabic means to submit. Thus, each Muslim is required to submit to the will of Allah at the same time that they also must surrender their own free wills. Therefore, the freedom of conscience in Islam is haram (forbidden).
In other words, if a Muslim so much as questions the word of the Koran, which all devout Muslims consider to be the express will of Allah, that Muslim will be considered a blasphemer by other Muslims and if he doesn't repent, the penalty prescribed for blasphemy in Islam is death.
Likewise, once a Muslim always a Muslim as apostasy in Islam, like blasphemy, is also punishable by death, as again the exercise of the freedom of conscience in Islam is haram (forbidden), as all devout Muslims are in effect slaves of Allah.
In Islam you either submit to the will of Allah and become his slave or you don't, and if you don't you better do it secretly if you don't want to be killed by other fellow Muslims. Indeed, no one kills more Muslims than other Muslims. It is Islam's way of maintaining peer pressure and very strict discipline.
Hence, if my post is bigoted in any way, then please prove that anything I've cited and said above is inaccurate and therefore bigoted since it constitutes illegitimate criticism because it isn't true.
In addition, you will also have to prove at the same time that the above Koranic verses that I cited verbatim and that all call for perpetual jihad against kafir infidels until there is no more Fitnah (i.e., worshipping others besides Allah) and all religion in the world will all be for Allah alone, didn't come from the Koran.
Moreover, I further submit to you that any religion that calls for perpetual jihad against all kafir infidels until there is no more Fitnah in the world and all religion belongs to Allah is indeed very radical and exceedingly extreme, and any person or persons, Muslim or otherwise, who adheres to those Koranic verses is a radical and an extremist.
Finally, what would you call a person who calls and labels others bigots and idiots at the same time that he makes idiotic and stupid assertions based on silly preconceived notions, yet himself is obviously absolutely as clueless and oblivious as it gets?
Uhm...I didn't make silly juvenile allegations that you can't possibly backup, you did, and as for as silly assumptions go, read your own damn stupid and idiotic posts. I learned a long time ago never to assume or to have preconceived notions.
I see a very bright and educated individual unlike what you are and see when you look into the mirror.
The only thing that is clear enough, is that when it comes to Islam and Muslims you are about as ignorant as ignorance gets, yet you are personally attacking others as if you are some sort of leading authority steeped in the knowledge of Islam and Islamic culture, at the same time the best you can do is to spew silly, idiotic, and asinine preconceived notions that are completely antithetical to Islam and Muslims. Indeed, it is rare to observe someone slit his own throat so thoroughly as you have done in this thread.
I didn't either, as you are deliberately misrepresenting the above cited quote and also intentionally citing it out of context, but nonetheless you stupidly assumed that Muslims want and value the same things that we in the West want and value, when Muslims believe that we in the West are decadent, and that is about as ignorant as ignorance gets, and it's all based on your own silly preconceived notions. Read your own stupid posts. Nevertheless, can you back up your silly and asinine assertions, like I have mind?
The only concept I'm getting is that when it comes to Islam and Muslims you are about as ignorant as ignorance gets, yet at the same time you personally attack others and call them bigots and idiots that happen to disagree with you.
In any event, if poverty and despair is the root cause of Islamic violence as you stupidly insist, then why is it practically only Muslims today that commit terrorist attacks around the world and not any of the other religious and ethnic groups that are also afflicted with endemic poverty and despair?
Moreover, at the same time please also explain why Muslim terrorists always go out of their way to justify their terrorist attacks by citing Islamic texts and why they don't claim that it is because they are poverty stricken and in despair.
The reality is obvious, you are misapplying your own westernized preconceived notions of the world to Islamic culture and society and nothing could be more stupid or idiotic. Why can't you drop the silly preconceived notions and then approach the subject of Islam with a completely open mind, and why must you personally attack anyone who disagrees with you?
Because I'm not self hating and filled with nonsensical guilt like you are and also not nearly as ignorant as you either. Not to mention that in both Iraq and Afghanistan, most of the deaths that have occurred was via Muslim on Muslim violence.
Indeed, I propose that we get out of their way and let Muslims continue to kill each other. As a matter of fact, I propose that we seek out more cracks and fissures within Islam and then exploit them so that it will result in more Muslim on Muslim violence. It makes a hell of a lot more sense than the way we are currently pursuing the war, which is about as idiotic as it gets.
Yeah right...and you are the one who keeps insisting ad nauseum that poverty and despair are the root causes of all Islamic motivated violence in the world and not those Koranic verses that I cited above, and that Muslims want and value the same things that we in the West do, which is why, of course, that the majorities of Muslim immigrants to the West are forming Muslim no-go zones ruled by Sharia and in direct contravention to the laws of the states in which they reside, instead of assimilating and integrating and trying to emulate us in the West because they value and want the same things that we do. Give me a break. You couldn't be anymore ignorant!
When have Muslims not persecuted, discriminated against, and violently oppressed non-Muslims living inside Muslim majority countries? The institution of Jihad and its corollary the institution of Dhimmitude is as old as Islam itself. As a matter of fact, most of the ancestors of present day Muslims in the world today were themselves converted to Islam via the harsh and very humiliating institution of dhimmitude. Damn...you couldn't be anymore oblivious if you tried?
No I don't see, since it is you who has unequivocally and repeatedly demonstrated that you are about as ignorant as ignorance gets with respect to Islam and Muslims! Yet, you have the audacity to personally attack anyone and everyone who isn't as equally as ignorant as you are. Indeed, I don't think I've ever witnessed a greater act of stupidity in my life as I have with respect to your posts.
I admitted to "making up my mind".. Based on Evidence.:doh Change the "root of all evil" to anything you like and it's the same, you made up your mind already so anything else is "ridiculous".
The Problem is Literalism to a book that that is Not tolerant and whose enemies, Unlike those of the OT/NT, are still alive.nonpareil said:And the problem is what exactly? That Islam is a violent religion or that there is some fundamental problems in the ME such as consistent war, poverty, young men having no job or self-worth without turning to the fundamentalist's doctrines?...
me said:Irshad Manji
"... The trouble with Islam today is that Literalism is Mainstream.
Even Moderate Muslims take the Koran as the final word of God: unfiltered, unchanged and unchangeable.
This Supremacy Complex inhibits us from asking hard questions about what happens when faith becomes dogma.
Such a path can lead only to a dead end of More Violence...
The Australian: Irshad Manji: Denial is scourge of Islam [August 23, 2005]
Absurd again.nonpareil said:Except the religion is an just excuse. Sudan and Nigeria are both oil rich countries. Only a small part of Nigeria want to have Sharia law, so again you've fallen to exaggerating. Hitler in the same way used race to push his war. So do we blame the tool or the wielder?
"Idiot" is a clear violation and inaccurate unless you want to shout at the mirror.nonpareil said:No one claim what? That "Muslim engage in violence it's because of Islam" or that "other groups engage in violence it's nothing to do with their religion, because they are fighting with the Muslims". If the first, then what the hell have you been arguing with me about?
Idiot.
And if the second, fine, I assumed, because while you put down Islam, you don't do the same with other religions.
Another to a Torahaic wonder (and I am Ethnically Jewish and Pro-Israel):So what shall Israelis do?
Give the Land back to the "Canaanites, Hittites, Amorites, Perizzites, and the Jebusites" who No longer exist?
(It's Bible Theme Park time!)
Then again landless/defenseless, themselves then be Lead back the Gas Chambers/Genocide by the Ultra-Orthodox Pied Piper Freaks of self-annihilation? The Suicidal Neturei Karta et al, who should/I demand be first into the showers they loosed.
"G-d", the basis of your theories is BS!
MYTHOLOGY has NO standing.
It's the Same "G-D" of the sickest fringe of settlers, who have no more/no less claim on reality than you. Which is No claim.
Holy Books are False Gods in a Real world where there aren't any Gods.
Only Just states like Israel whose claim to the land is based on continuous presence and significant settlement, and backed by the risking of the lives of it's citizens....
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mbig said:andersbranderud said:....Religions that contradict" תורה (Torah), therefore, are the antithesis of the Creator.
What a load of CRAP!...
Everything you've said is Fallacious or wrong, in fact 90% of the time, Both.nonpareil said:You can't read your own posts and you obviously didn't read mine either. Evidently you are too lazy intellectually to engage in a real honest discussion, so you're just going to willy-nilly say "fallacious" to everything. If you can't argue against the arguement I put up, just stop posting. Don't waste everyone's time.
No you tried the Fallacious assertion that because there are still Copts ALIVE/not "wiped out" in Egypt that Islam/that country doesn't discriminate.And things are mostly fine in Egypt. Here's the thrust of my arguement again:
Uh.. of course there's an opposite side. That's what fighting is.nonpareil said:You are the one who brought up cases of Islam. I responded in kind by showing that there is an opposite side to the fighting. ...
Yet more Fallacious garbage.So is Kim Jong Il a closet Muslims, that's why he wants Nuclear, and is a dictator? Or are they dictators and that's why they want Nuclear weapons?
I haven't?But you haven't, by pointing to countries like Thailand, Phillipines, Chechnya, the discrimination in Egypt and Iran, Somalia, Ethiopia etc, you are making a general statement that Muslims are violent...
No. I'm posting typical/rampant worlwide for average."Name and numbers" does not a statistic make. I said before, and I say it again: you are confusing the outlier for the average.
that's called knowledge.. while you just try and Bluff your way through with semantics.I did more than that, you just didn't read it, or it didn't sink in through the thick layer of prejudice you hold.
I know. Just more 'Coincidence' in the face of overwhlming evidence.It doesn't mean that Islam is the source of the problem either, which is the view point you have been pushing.
I admitted to "making up my mind".. Based on Evidence.
so far, untouched.
And now you are forced to fold on your strawman. Splash 47.
The Problem is Literalism to a book that that is Not tolerant and whose enemies, Unlike those of the OT/NT, are still alive.
Manji (practising Muslim Reformer) Posted on PAGE 2 of THIS string. (for the 100th Unrebutted time)
Absurd again.
Hitler had nothing to do with advancing Christian dioctrine while Sudan and Nigerian violence DID have to do with advancing Sharia.
"Idiot" is a clear violation and inaccurate unless you want to shout at the mirror.
I absolutely Do the same with other Religions!
Not only are you Wrong on Everything, you are STUPENDOUSLY WRONG.
Me just a few days ago to Ultra-othodox Jew 'you':
http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/64540-g-dless-claim-jewish-land-2.html#post1058542072
Another to a Torahaic wonder (and I am Ethnically Jewish and Pro-Israel):
http://www.debatepolitics.com/relig...and-his-purpose-mankind-s.html#post1058242766
I doesn't get any Better than that in Rebuttal... and there's Tons More to Religionists/God-ists of ALL sects.
As in the rest of this string, you're not only Wrong, you're up to your ears in/posting baseless Dog Crap.
Everything you've said is Fallacious or wrong, in fact 90% of the time, Both.
No you tried the Fallacious assertion that because there are still Copts ALIVE/not "wiped out" in Egypt that Islam/that country doesn't discriminate.
This remains not only wrong.. but Fallacious.. and laughable. Again.
Uh.. of course there's an opposite side. That's what fighting is.
Diving below Fallacious now I see.
The point was Muslims are fighting with Everyone worldwide.. and not coincidentally. That's statistically and logically consistent.
Yet more Fallacious garbage.
I haven't?
It was me who brought them up! But pointed out many others as well.
Still unanswered.
No. I'm posting typical/rampant worlwide for average.
that's called knowledge.. while you just try and Bluff your way through with semantics.
I know. Just more 'Coincidence' in the face of overwhlming evidence.
Latest Offerings from the Religion of Peace
2010.02.15 (Narathiwat, Thailand) - A rubber tapper and her daughter are gunned down by Muslim radicals on the plantation where they worked.
2010.02.15 (Mosul, Iraq) - A 42-year-old Christian is shot to death in front of his store.
2010.02.15 (Jawf, Yemen) - A 51-year-old man is shot to death by Shia radicals while eating lunch.
2010.02.15 (Ain el Hilweh, Lebanon) - An attack by a Sunni fundamentalist group leaves two people dead, including a woman.
2010.02.15 (Mogadishu, Somalia) - An al-Shabaab suicide bomber targets a moving vehicle, killing two bystanders.
2010.02.14 (Mosul, Iraq) - Islamists enter a Christian businessman's home and murder him.
-- - - - - -- --
Weekly Jihad Report
Feb 06 - Feb 13
Jihad Attacks: 39
Dead Bodies: 114
Critically Injured: 171
- - - - - -
Monthly Jihad Report
January, 2010
Jihad Attacks: 145
Countries: 16
Religions: 5
Dead Bodies: 683
Critically Injured: 1251
Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time
Q: Martin Kramer spoke of Gaza's "superfluous young men." Is anyone in Gaza "superfluous"?
A: "I don't mind if Gazans continue producing babies, but they will have to move somewhere else. They simply will Not fit into their Current geography - forgetting about feeding and employing them, too."
(Dr. Hassan Abu Libdeh, president, Palestinian Central Bureau of Statistics, 2000.)
Q: Okay... Well, if that's the situation, wouldn't it make sense for Gaza's government to promote family planning?
A: "Unlike the West that practices family planning, we encourage having children for Political reasons."
(Dr. Abd al-Aziz Rantisi, co-founder of Hamas in Gaza, 2003.)
Q: Political reasons? For couples having children?
A: "Marriage is the same as Jihad. With marriage, you are producing another generation that believes in resistance."
(Muhammad Yousef, member of the Qassam Brigades in Gaza, the Hamas underground, 2008.)
Q: I hadn't thought of that. So would you say the present Israeli sanctions are starving the "resistance" in the cradle?
A: "It's not a humanitarian crisis. People aren't starving."
(Khaled Abdel Shaafi, director, UN Development Program in Gaza, 2008.)
[.............]
Mormons tend to have large families often times, but you don't see them strapping bombs to themselves and waging war in the name of their God.
A little Follow up.
1. 'ElectronicIntifada' on what you saw in the OP:
ei: Harvard Fellow calls for genocidal measure to curb Palestinian births
"Calls for Genocidal measures"!
and there was some back and forth between the parties after the ei screed.
2. Martin Kramer has some fun with it using his questions and selected quotes as answers.
Links for thos quotes are embedded in the answers at Jpost link below.
Inside the Middle East: Gaza Q&A: Palestinians answer
JPost.com | BlogCentral | Inside the Middle East | Gaza Q&A: Palestinians answer
Martin Kramer // Mar 09, 2010
With Palestinian Birth rates they would be refugees from any 'palestine' from overcrowding anyway.
It's no wonder they want the 'Right of Return'... to Israel.
They're Jammin even within the 1948/1967 border they want and Palestinians will necessarily have to emigrate, creating yet more So-called 'refugees' somewhere else.
Welcome to UNRWA-ism (OP mentions) for which WE are paying/The USA is the biggest donor.
And people don't like paying welfare mothers here!
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