Death at the Station: Russian Cluster Munition Attack in Kramatorsk

[Rogue Valley]

Death at the Station: Russian Cluster Munition Attack in Kramatorsk

Russian forces deployed the type of missile system used in the attack on Kramatorsk train station that killed at least 58 civilians fleeing fighting in eastern Ukraine in April 2022, an investigation by Human Rights Watch and SITU Research reveals. The attack is a serious violation of the laws...

www.hrw.org

On April 8, at 10:28 a.m., a ballistic missile equipped with a cluster munition warhead dispersed 50 small bombs, known as submunitions, over the train tracks and station in Kramatorsk. At least 58 people were killed – all of them to our knowledge civilians – and over 100 others were injured. Human Rights Watch researchers visited Kramatorsk from May 14 to 24, 2022 to investigate the attack and its aftermath. SITU Research, a visual investigations practice, and Human Rights Watch analyzed over 200 videos and photographs and conducted a spatial and temporal analysis of the attack. The evidence strongly indicates that the missile that killed and injured civilians at Kramatorsk train station was launched from Russian-controlled territory in eastern Ukraine. The attack was a violation of the laws of war and an apparent war crime.

What follows is the story of the attack and some of those forever affected by it.....

Yet another war crime by Russian forces in Ukraine as documented by Human Right Watch.

 

[ColdHardTruth]

Death at the Station: Russian Cluster Munition Attack in Kramatorsk

Russian forces deployed the type of missile system used in the attack on Kramatorsk train station that killed at least 58 civilians fleeing fighting in eastern Ukraine in April 2022, an investigation by Human Rights Watch and SITU Research reveals. The attack is a serious violation of the laws...

www.hrw.org

Yet another war crime by Russian forces in Ukraine as documented by Human Right Watch.

It's time for Putin to face trial at the Hauge.

 

[PeteEU]

Just playing the devils advocate

Cluster bombs are not illegal. The US and Russians, Polish, Israel, and quite a few more all refused to sign the ban on cluster bombs. The US used cluster munitions during its many invasions the last 30 years.

A train station is a strategic target. This excuse was used constantly by the US/UK during WW2, and Ukraine has also bombed train junctions and stations in the rebellious areas of Ukraine.

As for this specific case.. its war, bad stuff happens.. not everything is a war crime.

 

[Chagos]

Just playing the devils advocate

Cluster bombs are not illegal. The US and Russians, Polish, Israel, and quite a few more all refused to sign the ban on cluster bombs. The US used cluster munitions during its many invasions the last 30 years.

A train station is a strategic target. This excuse was used constantly by the US/UK during WW2, and Ukraine has also bombed train junctions and stations in the rebellious areas of Ukraine.

As for this specific case.. its war, bad stuff happens.. not everything is a war crime.

Just to add that Kyiv has been imploring the West to supply it with cluster ammo as well.

Doesn't make the whole thing any better on the side of ANY party but is a perspective we need to keep.

 

[PeteEU]

Just to add that Kyiv has been imploring the West to supply it with cluster ammo as well.

Because they have run out of the Soviet stuff.

Doesn't make the whole thing any better on the side of ANY party but is a perspective we need to keep.

I agree and my point. Russia is fighting a war, and in war bad things happen. Calling it a war crime, when similar acts by others have not been called it.. only belittles the actual war crimes... or exposes the hypocrisy of the west.

 

[lwf]

Because they have run out of the Soviet stuff.


I agree and my point. Russia is fighting a war, and in war bad things happen. Calling it a war crime, when similar acts by others have not been called it.. only belittles the actual war crimes... or exposes the hypocrisy of the west.

Not according to Russia.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...ine-invasion-a-war-russia-tells-media-schools

And I would characterize it as an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign country targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure.

 

[PeteEU]

Not according to Russia.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022...ine-invasion-a-war-russia-tells-media-schools

And I would characterize is as an unprovoked invasion of a sovereign country.

Political bullshit semantics. It is a war.

Also you dont need to be at war with another country for the use of cluster bombs and other munitions that by many have been called illegal.

 

[Chagos]

Because they have run out of the Soviet stuff.


I agree and my point. Russia is fighting a war, and in war bad things happen. Calling it a war crime, when similar acts by others have not been called it.. only belittles the actual war crimes... or exposes the hypocrisy of the west.

What's more, while I believe that all W-European members of NATO have signed the convention against cluster bombs, the US has NOT.

Nor have, of course, Russia or Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions#State_parties

 

[lwf]

Political bullshit semantics. It is a war.

Also you dont need to be at war with another country for the use of cluster bombs and other munitions that by many have been called illegal.

It is illegal to use them against civilian targets.

 

[PeteEU]

What's more, while I believe that all W-European members of NATO have signed the convention against cluster bombs, the US has NOT.

Nor have, of course, Russia or Ukraine.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convention_on_Cluster_Munitions#State_parties

Yep. There is also a big debate on white prosperous... chemical weapon or not. Hint.. it is, but the usual suspects refuse to follow international law claiming they dont use it on civilians.. yea right, "lighting the sky up" over Gaza or Fallujah is not targeting civlians...

 

[PeteEU]

It is illegal to use them against civilian targets.

LOL great excuse considering they are used in cities and areas where civlians are.. not to mention, the US, Israel and so on, all dont have such restrictions.

 

[noonereal]

Death at the Station: Russian Cluster Munition Attack in Kramatorsk

Russian forces deployed the type of missile system used in the attack on Kramatorsk train station that killed at least 58 civilians fleeing fighting in eastern Ukraine in April 2022, an investigation by Human Rights Watch and SITU Research reveals. The attack is a serious violation of the laws...

www.hrw.org

Yet another war crime by Russian forces in Ukraine as documented by Human Right Watch.

Check your history book. The winner decides the loser committed war crimes.

While a war is waging, both sides executes opponents for war crimes.

 

[lwf]

LOL great excuse considering they are used in cities and areas where civlians are.. not to mention, the US, Israel and so on, all dont have such restrictions.

They do have these restrictions, and they abide by them. Using cluster bombs against civilians is restricted by the Geneva convention Protocol I. It became illegal in 1977.

"Even if the area contains military objectives, the attacking force must take precautions and steps to spare the lives of civilians and civilian objects as possible."

"The fact that a person lives in a settlement, whether legal or not, does not make him or her a legitimate military target. Under international humanitarian law, intentional attacks on civilians, or attacks that do not distinguish between military targets and civilians, are prohibited under all circumstances."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_bombardment_and_international_law#International_law_since_1945


The OP is absolutely correct. Russia committed a war crime with this attack. Just another of a laundry list of them.

 

[PeteEU]

They do have these restrictions, and they abide by them. Using cluster bombs against civilians is restricted by the Geneva convention Protocol I. It became illegal in 1977.

"Even if the area contains military objectives, the attacking force must take precautions and steps to spare the lives of civilians and civilian objects as possible."

Yes, and the US, Israel and Russia always claim they do so. The amount of times we have heard Israel claim not to target civilians and then some kid gets his head blown off by an Israeli snipper.. or how the US claimed it did not target civlians during the first Iraq war and yet somehow managed to kill so many in a civilian bunker by claiming "but it was also a military target" bs.. Or the classic.. Wikileaks showing an US apache opening fire at civilians..

"The fact that a person lives in a settlement, whether legal or not, does not make him or her a legitimate military target. Under international humanitarian law, intentional attacks on civilians, or attacks that do not distinguish between military targets and civilians, are prohibited under all circumstances."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aerial_bombardment_and_international_law#International_law_since_1945

Yes, but the US, Israel, Russia and loads more more than often ignore this.

The OP is absolutely correct. Russia committed a war crime with this attack. Just another of a laundry list of them.

The so did the US, Israel.. and so on in most conflicts the last 50 years.

Listen I dont disagree that what Russia did was disgusting, but I disagree that it is a war crime as long as other countries are not called to the same standard.

 

[Utility Man]

Peacekeeper.

 

[Roadvirus]

Just playing the devils advocate

Cluster bombs are not illegal

using them on civilians is.

 

[PeteEU]

using them on civilians is.

Fine, when is the US and Israel going on trial for war crimes?

 

[Questerr]

It is illegal to use them against civilian targets.

Rail stations and railway infrastructure are not civilian targets, especially considering the Ukrainian military relies heavily on the railway for logistics.

 

[Luce]

Fine, when is the US and Israel going on trial for war crimes?

So it is your argument that one country committing war crimes is justification for another, unconnected country committing war crimes in a different war?

 

[lwf]

Fine, when is the US and Israel going on trial for war crimes?

They didn't intentionally use cluster bombs on civilians. That's the difference between them and Russia. Russia is targeting civilians in violation of the Geneva convention. US and Israel follow the Geneva convention.

 

[lwf]

Rail stations and railway infrastructure are not civilian targets, especially considering the Ukrainian military relies heavily on the railway for logistics.

They are civilian targets when they are full of civilians.

"Even if the area contains military objectives, the attacking force must take precautions and steps to spare the lives of civilians and civilian objects as possible."

Russia is deliberately targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure. This is a war crime.

 

[PeteEU]

They didn't intentionally use cluster bombs on civilians. That's the difference between them and Russia. Russia is targeting civilians in violation of the Geneva convention. US and Israel follow the Geneva convention.

Says who? Russia has said many times, like the US, Israel and many others.. we do not target civilians. So if we are to believe the US, Israel and so on, then we must believe Russia no?

 

[PeteEU]

So it is your argument that one country committing war crimes is justification for another, unconnected country committing war crimes in a different war?

Hell no.

My argument is that either it is not a war crime because similar actions by other countries in recent wars were not called war crimes, or we need to put other countries on trial for war crimes, so that we can put Russia on trail for the same thing.

You do understand the "equal under the law " principle right?

 

[Rogue Valley]

Calling it a war crime, when similar acts by others have not been called it.. only belittles the actual war crimes... or exposes the hypocrisy of the west.

Acording to the Geneva Conventions, the indiscriminate killing of civilians is a war crime Pete, no matter how this reality ruins your neverending defense of Russia in ths war.

As an aside, 110 nations have signed the Convention on Cluster Munitions Treaty.

Convention on Cluster Munitions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[PeteEU]

Acording to the Geneva Conventions, the indiscriminate killing civilians is a war crime Pete, no matter how this reality ruins your neverending defense of Russia in ths war.

Convention on Cluster Munitions - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Where am I defending Russia? Just pointing out that other countries have done the same and not been accused of war crimes.

The 16 non-signatories are Brazil, China, Egypt, Greece, Iran, Israel, India, North Korea, Pakistan, Poland, Romania, Russia, Singapore, South Korea, the United States and Turkey.

And hence not bound by the Convention.