DE-CODING IMAGINE

[tosca1]

This thread was inspired by a post in another thread:


#38

Post in thread 'How do atheists find contentment in not speculating about life after death?'

Thursday at 11:30 PM

If someone is content to believe there is no life after death, and avoid speculating about it, then they, in my book, are taking a serious risk.

Is it just a placebo, or something that allows them to temporarily stave off having to worry about needing to give an account of their actions in this life?

Religious folks always seem to get this backwards.
The like to pretend that “life is precious:” while ignoring the fact that so many religious extremists look froward
to the end of the wold or die yelling “Allah is great” while murdering thousands of actual living human beings.
The...

• BabaVoss

• 

Imagine – which was written by John Lennon and Yoko Ono - must be the anthem of atheists and progressives.



John Lennon was raised in a Christian household and apparently attended Sunday School as a child.

Was John Lennon an atheist? John Lennon’s belief - The Beatles

John Lennon's spiritual beliefs evolved over the course of his life, and he went through periods of

beatlesdaily.com

The song, IMAGINE, was partly inspiredby a Christian prayer book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagine_(song)



When we look at the lyrics, it's not really an anti-GOD song.



BUT what Atheists don't seem to understand...........
Imagine, stands on the premise that the Abrahamic God exists.
That, there is Heaven and Hell.




Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No Hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people livin' for today
Ah, ah, ah-ah

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothin' to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people livin' life in peace
Yoo, hoo, oo-oo

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharin' all the world
Yoo, hoo, oo-oo

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

 

[ataraxia]

This thread was inspired by a post in another thread:


#38

Post in thread 'How do atheists find contentment in not speculating about life after death?'

Thursday at 11:30 PM

If someone is content to believe there is no life after death, and avoid speculating about it, then they, in my book, are taking a serious risk.

Is it just a placebo, or something that allows them to temporarily stave off having to worry about needing to give an account of their actions in this life?

Religious folks always seem to get this backwards.
The like to pretend that “life is precious:” while ignoring the fact that so many religious extremists look froward
to the end of the wold or die yelling “Allah is great” while murdering thousands of actual living human beings.
The...

• BabaVoss

• 

Imagine – which was written by John Lennon and Yoko Ono - must be the anthem of atheists and progressives.



John Lennon was raised in a Christian household and apparently attended Sunday School as a child.

Was John Lennon an atheist? John Lennon’s belief - The Beatles

John Lennon's spiritual beliefs evolved over the course of his life, and he went through periods of

beatlesdaily.com

The song, IMAGINE, was partly inspiredby a Christian prayer book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagine_(song)



When we look at the lyrics, it's not really an anti-GOD song.



BUT what Atheists don't seem to understand...........
Imagine, stands on the premise that the Abrahamic God exists.
That, there is Heaven and Hell.




Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No Hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people livin' for today
Ah, ah, ah-ah

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothin' to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people livin' life in peace
Yoo, hoo, oo-oo

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharin' all the world
Yoo, hoo, oo-oo

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

All our models and explanations of reality are imaginative constructs, including metaphysical and scientific models. They are all just based on our latest observations and experiences, and reflect the most clever and functional way we have yet come up with to try to make sense of them.

But there is no way that we mere mortal humans can step outside of our eyes, brains, and skins to “really” know the Ultimate Reality of the universe. The Ultimate Reality could just be that everything you know as “reality” could just be electric signals being fed into your brain by some evil aliens conducting an experiment- a dream, in the spirit of the matrix movies.

The fact of the matter is that as we have observed and learned more, the old models of heaven and hell and gods and souls are starting to become increasingly untenable; just like as we observed and learned more, the Earth centric view of the universe as taught by the church for millennia proved to be increasingly untenable.

 

[Loulit01]

This thread was inspired by a post in another thread:


#38

Post in thread 'How do atheists find contentment in not speculating about life after death?'

Thursday at 11:30 PM

If someone is content to believe there is no life after death, and avoid speculating about it, then they, in my book, are taking a serious risk.

Is it just a placebo, or something that allows them to temporarily stave off having to worry about needing to give an account of their actions in this life?

Religious folks always seem to get this backwards.
The like to pretend that “life is precious:” while ignoring the fact that so many religious extremists look froward
to the end of the wold or die yelling “Allah is great” while murdering thousands of actual living human beings.
The...

• BabaVoss

• 

Imagine – which was written by John Lennon and Yoko Ono - must be the anthem of atheists and progressives.



John Lennon was raised in a Christian household and apparently attended Sunday School as a child.

Was John Lennon an atheist? John Lennon’s belief - The Beatles

John Lennon's spiritual beliefs evolved over the course of his life, and he went through periods of

beatlesdaily.com

The song, IMAGINE, was partly inspiredby a Christian prayer book.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imagine_(song)



When we look at the lyrics, it's not really an anti-GOD song.



BUT what Atheists don't seem to understand...........
Imagine, stands on the premise that the Abrahamic God exists.
That, there is Heaven and Hell.




Imagine there's no Heaven
It's easy if you try
No Hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people livin' for today
Ah, ah, ah-ah

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothin' to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people livin' life in peace
Yoo, hoo, oo-oo

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope some day you'll join us
And the world will be one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people sharin' all the world
Yoo, hoo, oo-oo

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Wow. The mental gymnastics some Christians practice in an attempt to make everything and everyone Christian are, unsurprisingly, completely irrational.

No heaven, no hell, no religion, nothing above but sky.

Obviously a Christian song. Good God.

 

[tosca1]

Wow. The mental gymnastics some Christians practice in an attempt to make everything and everyone Christian are, unsurprisingly, completely irrational.

No heaven, no hell, no religion, nothing above but sky.

Obviously a Christian song. Good God.

mental gymnastic this!

It says........IMAGINE, that there is no heaven and no hell. Which means - the reality it gives is that there is heaven and hell.


Oh boy. Step-by-step.
Follow this:


"Above us only sky" - the reality is that there is more than just the sky above us..................RIGHT?

"Imagine there's no countries" - what reality do you live in? With many countries...............RIGHT?

"And no religion, too" - what's the reality here? How many religions are there? Plenty. RIGHT?

"Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can" Exactly!
What's the reality that you live in.....especially in this very materialistic world! You have possessions, even if it's just your laptop you're using now.........Right?



Need I go on some more?



I think John Lennon was struggling with spirituality. He was an agnostic I suppose.
He was trying to find God.
I hope in the end, he did.

 

[tosca1]

Wow. The mental gymnastics some Christians practice in an attempt to make everything and everyone Christian are, unsurprisingly, completely irrational.

No heaven, no hell, no religion, nothing above but sky.

Obviously a Christian song. Good God.

I didn't say it's a Christian song.
You did!

I don't know how you got that from my post.

It was PARTLY INSPIRED by a Christian prayer book!
That doesn't necessarily make it a Christian song.

 

[tosca1]

All our models and explanations of reality are imaginative constructs, including metaphysical and scientific models. They are all just based on our latest observations and experiences, and reflect the most clever and functional way we have yet come up with to try to make sense of them.

But there is no way that we mere mortal humans can step outside of our eyes, brains, and skins to “really” know the Ultimate Reality of the universe. The Ultimate Reality could just be that everything you know as “reality” could just be electric signals being fed into your brain by some evil aliens conducting an experiment- a dream, in the spirit of the matrix movies.

The fact of the matter is that as we have observed and learned more, the old models of heaven and hell and gods and souls are starting to become increasingly untenable; just like as we observed and learned more, the Earth centric view of the universe as taught by the church for millennia proved to be increasingly untenable.

Irrelevant!
What are you prattling about?

 

[Loulit01]

mental gymnastic this!

It says........IMAGINE, that there is no heaven and no hell. Which means - the reality it gives is that there is heaven and hell.


Oh boy. Step-by-step.
Follow this:


"Above us only sky" - the reality is that there is more than just the sky above us..................RIGHT?

"Imagine there's no countries" - what reality do you live in? With many countries...............RIGHT?

"And no religion, too" - what's the reality here? How many religions are there? Plenty. RIGHT?

"Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can" Exactly!
What's the reality that you live in.....especially in this very materialistic world! You have possessions, even if it's just your laptop you're using now.........Right?



Need I go on some more?



I think John Lennon was struggling with spirituality. He was an agnostic I suppose.
He was trying to find God.
I hope in the end, he did.

 

[tosca1]

You?


You need more practice. Your contortions aren't effective.

 

[ataraxia]

View attachment 67585705


Irrelevant!
What are you prattling about?

Just explaining why, when Lennon asks you to imagine a different model, it does not mean that the old model was real. He’s just suggesting that you imaginatively consider a potentially more functional and healthy model than the old one. It doesn’t even mean that the new model is now the real ultimate truth and reality- just a suggestion that it’s a better model.

If that was not your argument, please clarify.

 

[Loulit01]

It says........IMAGINE, that there is no heaven and no hell. Which means - the reality it gives is that there is heaven and hell.

 

[tosca1]

Just explaining why, when Lennon asks you to imagine a different model, it does not mean that the old model was real. He’s just suggesting it may be a more functional and healthy model than the old one.

If that was not your argument, please clarify.

You're saying......................... he just want to change what currently exists.

Replace it with a new model.








Hahahahaha

 

[tosca1]

It says........IMAGINE, that there is no heaven and no hell. Which means - the reality it gives is that there is heaven and hell.
View attachment 67585707

To him - that's the reality. HIS reality!

Lol - he's the one who composed the song and singing it!
That's what he's saying!



I think he was conflicted or confused by spirituality.
Obviously, his Christian upbringing was weighing in.

 

[ataraxia]

You're saying......................... he just want to change what currently exists.

Replace it with a new model.





View attachment 67585708


Hahahahaha

Sure. So what’s wrong with that?

Considering new models, trying them out, seeing how they work out, and learning from them, is how we always grow and change. Otherwise, we just remain stagnant.

It’s no wonder why the most stagnant and backwards societies in the world are often the most religious ones- or the ones who think they already know ultimate truth. They think they already know ultimate truth, and so their eyes and brains close forever- not a good recipe for learning and growth.

 

[Logician Man]

The Meaning Behind The Song: Imagine by John Lennon​

In 1971, John Lennon released “Imagine.” This song is an anthem that still touches many hearts today. It speaks of peace and a united world without divisions. Inspired by Yoko Ono, it envisions a place without greed, religion, or countries.

The simplicity of “Imagine” hides its profound call for peace. Through song analysis, we see how deeply Lennon’s words affect us. Its fame is shown in covers by famous artists like Lady Gaga and Stevie Wonder. It’s also used in peace movements around the globe.

Today, “Imagine” reminds us of our capacity for harmony. It underscores the need to work for a better world, especially when society feels divided.

 

[Loulit01]

I'm done arguing John Lennon with you. Your attempt to deconstruct Imagine was catastrophic.

the World Church called me once and asked, "Can we use the lyrics to 'Imagine' and just change it to 'Imagine one religion'?" That showed [me] they didn't understand it at all. It would defeat the whole purpose of the song, the whole idea.

 

[tosca1]

Sure. So what’s wrong with that?

Because of your own contradiction?
Here:

Just explaining why, when Lennon asks you to imagine a different model, it does not mean that the old model was real.

Lol, how do you replace an old model for a new one if the old model wasn't real?

 

[SNOWFLAKE]

So, let me get this right.............. the OP, with his usual capitalization and insulting memes, wants us to "Imagine" what the words to the song Imagine means - according to HIS interpretation.

BUT.............. when we "imagine" the lyrics to mean something else, this is how he reacts................

mental gymnastic this!

Irrelevant!
What are you prattling about?

You?

You're saying......................... he just want to change what currently exists.

I think he was conflicted or confused by spirituality.
Obviously, his Christian upbringing was weighing in.

Because of your own contradiction?

NOW, imagine how insecure someone needs to be to get this triggered because the rest of us don't accept HIS vision of what the lyrics mean.
Can we have an amen?

 

[ataraxia]

Because of your own contradiction?
Here:





Lol, how do you replace an old model for a new one if the old model wasn't real?

You’re stuck in this old paradigm of thinking in terms of real versus not real. But what I’m proposing is that this paradigm is not very fruitful or helpful. You can never know ultimate reality. How would you know that you have finally reached it? It has been far more fruitful to always leave yourself open to new observations and new models for trying to make sense of those observations. Not only do you not lose anything by giving up on this concept of ultimate reality, you gain something in that you become always open to learning and growth.

What I am suggesting is a model where you think rather in terms of what is a more fruitful or clever model I can come up with, based on the best I know so far? Continuing to ask whether it’s really real or not does no useful work.

 

[tosca1]

So, let me get this right.............. the OP, with his usual capitalization and insulting memes, wants us to "Imagine" what the words to the song Imagine means - according to HIS interpretation.

BUT.............. when we "imagine" the lyrics to mean something else, this is how he reacts................













NOW, imagine how insecure someone needs to be to get this triggered because the rest of us don't accept HIS vision of what the lyrics mean.
Can we have an amen?

@ataraxia


Don't get triggered now.

I'm simply pointing out the misconception of atheists that somehow, the song IMAGINE is anti-GOD.
Read the OP again.

 

[Logician Man]

@ataraxia


Don't get triggered now.

I'm simply pointing out the misconception of atheists that somehow, the song IMAGINE is anti-GOD.
Read the OP again.

John Lennon's song "Imagine" isn't "anti-GOD" @tosca1. "Imagine" is about considering that there are no supernatural gods, heaven, or hellfire.