• This is a political forum that is non-biased/non-partisan and treats every person's position on topics equally. This debate forum is not aligned to any political party. In today's politics, many ideas are split between and even within all the political parties. Often we find ourselves agreeing on one platform but some topics break our mold. We are here to discuss them in a civil political debate. If this is your first visit to our political forums, be sure to check out the RULES. Registering for debate politics is necessary before posting. Register today to participate - it's free!

Daily Caller opinion piece by Geoffrey Ingersoll ---- Enough is Enough -- I Choose Violence

Terryj

DP Veteran
Joined
Nov 27, 2017
Messages
1,071
Reaction score
636
Location
The Peoples Socialist Republic of Oregon
Gender
Male
Political Leaning
Independent
That's a pretty shocking read.
 
One can certainly choose violence if that's the way they want to roll but there WILL be consequences for doing so. As a rule, the consequences are FAR worse than the aggravating motivation for the violence in the first place. Jails are full of people that chose to act in violence for a momentary inconvenience or personal affront. It's rather stupid, in my opinion, to ruin the rest of your life because you're pissed off in a given moment so I very much recommend that if you choose violence then make damned sure that whatever price you've got coming is worth it.
 
This is opinion piece is enough to make you say WTF. Some of the things he rants about I can agree with, like "to soft on crime" people need to be held accountable for their actions and there should be consequences for those actions no matter who you are.

Here is a link to the opinion piece: https://dailycaller.com/2025/09/26/ingersoll-enough-choose-violence-police-crime-crackdown/
If incarceration made us safe, wer'd be the safest country on Earth.

It doesn't.

1759173647398.webp
 
If incarceration made us safe, wer'd be the safest country on Earth.

It doesn't.

View attachment 67591819
We would be better served to have less prisons and far more police. Any criminologist will tell you that it isn't more severe punishments that deter crime, but rather it is a higher likelihood of getting caught. For example, if speeding has a 500 dollar fine, but a very low likelihood of being caught, most people will still speed. However, if speeding has a 100 dollar fine, but a very high likelihood of getting caught, few people will speed. The same is true with violent crime, and even homicides. If you knew that you had a near 100% chance of landing in prison for 25 years, you are much less likely to commit premeditated murder than if you knew you only had a 50% of being caught, but if you were caught and convicted, you would spend life in prison.

We should reduce the length of sentences on many crimes (which would reduce our overall prison population significantly over time), focus on rehabilitating people in prison, and train and hire enough police to properly do community policing.
 
We would be better served to have less prisons and far more police. Any criminologist will tell you that it isn't more severe punishments that deter crime, but rather it is a higher likelihood of getting caught. For example, if speeding has a 500 dollar fine, but a very low likelihood of being caught, most people will still speed. However, if speeding has a 100 dollar fine, but a very high likelihood of getting caught, few people will speed. The same is true with violent crime, and even homicides. If you knew that you had a near 100% chance of landing in prison for 25 years, you are much less likely to commit premeditated murder than if you knew you only had a 50% of being caught, but if you were caught and convicted, you would spend life in prison.

We should reduce the length of sentences on many crimes (which would reduce our overall prison population significantly over time), focus on rehabilitating people in prison, and train and hire enough police to properly do community policing.
Fines should be based on income, not incident.

No cash bail should be a national policy. Bail keeps poor innocent people in jail and lets rich guilty people walk free.

Shorter prison terms in stricter conditions would work better than the current method imo.
 
Fines should be based on income, not incident.

No cash bail should be a national policy. Bail keeps poor innocent people in jail and lets rich guilty people walk free.

Shorter prison terms in stricter conditions would work better than the current method imo.
Unfortunately, we aren't Finland. The majority of Americans read on a 6th grade level or lower, and we are awash in firearms. That is a deadly combination. Anytime we have pulled back on policing in American cities, crime has skyrocketed. We need to do a better job with early childhood education, breaking up concentrated poverty, and getting guns off the street, but those are longterm solutions, they will do nothing in the near term. In the near term, we know what works: More community policing, more targeted policing (the vast majority of violent crime is committed by a small percentage of the inhabitants of a given neighborhood), more community centers and so on.
 
Unfortunately, we aren't Finland. The majority of Americans read on a 6th grade level or lower, and we are awash in firearms. That is a deadly combination. Anytime we have pulled back on policing in American cities, crime has skyrocketed. We need to do a better job with early childhood education, breaking up concentrated poverty, and getting guns off the street, but those are longterm solutions, they will do nothing in the near term. In the near term, we know what works: More community policing, more targeted policing (the vast majority of violent crime is committed by a small percentage of the inhabitants of a given neighborhood), more community centers and so on.
I don't see why any of your points should change the need for equitable fines.
 
WTF? There are going to be more than a few people out there that will be hoping this happens. Mind you, the ones who want it to happen but are keyboard warriors will let other people do the dirty work while themselves hide in their basements.
 
I don't see why any of your points should change the need for equitable fines.
It won't happen in America, so its neither here nor there. Regardless of whether it is a good idea or not, most people would see it as fundamentally un-American to charge you a bigger fine for speeding based on your income. They would see it as being unequal before the law.
 
It won't happen in America, so its neither here nor there. Regardless of whether it is a good idea or not, most people would see it as fundamentally un-American to charge you a bigger fine for speeding based on your income. They would see it as being unequal before the law.
It doesn't matter what the people think, it's what the Article 3 branch determines is Constitutional.

If the law says '5% of your Adjusted Gross Income' as the penalty, how do you determine it is unequal before the law?
 
It doesn't matter what the people think, it's what the Article 3 branch determines is Constitutional.

If the law says '5% of your Adjusted Gross Income' as the penalty, how do you determine it is unequal before the law?
I believe SCOTUS has ruled that fines must be proportional to the offense in United States v. Bajakajian
 
I believe SCOTUS has ruled that fines must be proportional to the offense in United States v. Bajakajian
They would be proportionate to the offense.

Is it that you just don't care how fines impact poor people?
 
This is opinion piece is enough to make you say WTF. Some of the things he rants about I can agree with, like "to soft on crime" people need to be held accountable for their actions and there should be consequences for those actions no matter who you are.

Here is a link to the opinion piece: https://dailycaller.com/2025/09/26/ingersoll-enough-choose-violence-police-crime-crackdown/


It's so easy to talk about violence.....

Until the first brick is thrown, the first fire hoses, gun shots....

Oh yeah, talking violence is easy.

As a reporter I have been in the center of a riot.......

Try it...you won't favor violence after that.

So easy to talk tough
 
They would be proportionate to the offense.

Is it that you just don't care how fines impact poor people?
I care about what is legal in the United States. You could pass a law that had speeding tickets based on a percentage of income and it would almost certainly be overturned in the courts as soon as you tried to write a billionaire a million dollar ticket.

Moreover, it is bad policy. Lets say someone poor gets caught speeding, the speeding ticket is not the major financial burden for them, it is their insurance. You could give them a ticket for a dollar, and they will still have the problem of their insurance going way up. Moreover, petty crimes that would normally have a fine associated with them are often less vigorously enforced in poor urban cores than they are in wealthier communities.
 
I care about what is legal in the United States. You could pass a law that had speeding tickets based on a percentage of income and it would almost certainly be overturned in the courts as soon as you tried to write a billionaire a million dollar ticket.

Moreover, it is bad policy. Lets say someone poor gets caught speeding, the speeding ticket is not the major financial burden for them, it is their insurance. You could give them a ticket for a dollar, and they will still have the problem of their insurance going way up. Moreover, petty crimes that would normally have a fine associated with them are often less vigorously enforced in poor urban cores than they are in wealthier communities.
Overturned on what basis?

How does insurance have anything to do with the fine level. Part of your insurance rates are not based on fines, they are based on infractions.
 
Overturned on what basis?
Overturned on the basis that SCOTUS has ruled that fines have to be proportional to the offense. If a billionaire got a million dollar speeding ticket, they would challenge it on the basis that the fine, 1 million dollars, would not be proportional to the offense, speeding.
How does insurance have anything to do with the fine level. Part of your insurance rates are not based on fines, they are based on infractions.
If your goal is to make life easier on poor people, taking the 200 dollar speeding ticket down to 50 dollars doesn't do it. Sure, it saves them 150 dollars on the fine, but the problem is their insurance rate is what really costs them, not the fine. I grew up in poverty. When I got a moving violation, my concern was never the cost of the ticket. The court clerk will let you pay that out over a few months if you need to. The worry was always how much your insurance would go up.

Moreover, the fact is, rich people commit less crime than poor people. You can crank the fines up all you want on rich people, and its not going to do anything to curb crime because statistically, they don't commit many. Finally, for infractions related to substance abuse, most courts have diversion programs. You can get out of much of the fines or jail time if you seek treatment.

As a side note, as someone that grew up in poverty, I will tell you that unfortunately, there are just more pieces of shit out there among the poor than there are in the middle class. The guy that breaks your car window to look in your glove box for a gun to steal, probably isn't upper middle class. The guy that cuts your catalytic converter off and costs you 2 grand to replace it, probably isn't a member of the local rotary club. The meth addict that steals you blind, probably poor. Most people that are poor are just doing what they can to get by and improve their lives. However, there is more of an overlap between pieces of shit and poor people than there are in any other group - and other poor people, unfortunately are usually their victims. When you pull back on policing in poor communities, the people hurt are poor people.
 
Overturned on the basis that SCOTUS has ruled that fines have to be proportional to the offense. If a billionaire got a million dollar speeding ticket, they would challenge it on the basis that the fine, 1 million dollars, would not be proportional to the offense, speeding.

If your goal is to make life easier on poor people, taking the 200 dollar speeding ticket down to 50 dollars doesn't do it. Sure, it saves them 150 dollars on the fine, but the problem is their insurance rate is what really costs them, not the fine. I grew up in poverty. When I got a moving violation, my concern was never the cost of the ticket. The court clerk will let you pay that out over a few months if you need to. The worry was always how much your insurance would go up.

Moreover, the fact is, rich people commit less crime than poor people. You can crank the fines up all you want on rich people, and its not going to do anything to curb crime because statistically, they don't commit many. Finally, for infractions related to substance abuse, most courts have diversion programs. You can get out of much of the fines or jail time if you seek treatment.

As a side note, as someone that grew up in poverty, I will tell you that unfortunately, there are just more pieces of shit out there among the poor than there are in the middle class. The guy that breaks your car window to look in your glove box for a gun to steal, probably isn't upper middle class. The guy that cuts your catalytic converter off and costs you 2 grand to replace it, probably isn't a member of the local rotary club. The meth addict that steals you blind, probably poor. Most people that are poor are just doing what they can to get by and improve their lives. However, there is more of an overlap between pieces of shit and poor people than there are in any other group - and other poor people, unfortunately are usually their victims. When you pull back on policing in poor communities, the people hurt are poor people.
That's a fail. If the fine is the same for all people (1% of AGI for example) the punishment is proportional in that all people have to pay the same time.

Insurance rates are a private business. You're looking to regulate how much a business can charge for their services? In CA, insurance rates must be approved by a state official, and rates can be suppressed, but that is based on a formula, not income.

Unsure of where lowering policing in poor areas comes from?
 
The graveyards are full of hard asses who had a chip on their shoulder. Don't become one. Be remembered for something better.
 
One can certainly choose violence if that's the way they want to roll but there WILL be consequences for doing so. As a rule, the consequences are FAR worse than the aggravating motivation for the violence in the first place. Jails are full of people that chose to act in violence for a momentary inconvenience or personal affront. It's rather stupid, in my opinion, to ruin the rest of your life because you're pissed off in a given moment so I very much recommend that if you choose violence then make damned sure that whatever price you've got coming is worth it.

I totally disagree with Trump but the way to fight him is at the ballot box, not with violence.
The US and UK are democracies, not countries run by mob justice.
 
That's a fail. If the fine is the same for all people (1% of AGI for example) the punishment is proportional in that all people have to pay the same time.

Insurance rates are a private business. You're looking to regulate how much a business can charge for their services? In CA, insurance rates must be approved by a state official, and rates can be suppressed, but that is based on a formula, not income.

Unsure of where lowering policing in poor areas comes from?
They would challenge the amount of the fine if 1% of their income was an exorbitant fine.

I am not saying we should tell insurers what to charge them, I am just pointing out that its not the fine that is hurting poor people, its the increase in insurance premiums resulting from a moving violation on their record that hurts them. Which is why, if you are poor, its even more in your interest not to speed or run lights, because you can probably barely afford insurance as it is.
 
Back
Top Bottom