Controversy surrounds Obama's faith office

scourge99 · Feb 5, 2009

http://m.cnn.com/cnn/ne/politics/detail/242697

Controversy surrounds Obama's faith office.

President Obama's newly revamped Office of Faith Based Initiatives is reigniting a contentious debate across the ideological spectrum over whether religious organizations that accept funds from the government should be allowed to discriminate when hiring.In one corner is a string of religion-backed organizations that have accepted federal funds from the 8-year-old program to advance their secular charity work. President Bush issued an executive order in 2002 that allowed these groups to continue their practice of discrimination with respect to hiring. Specifically, many of the organizations carry policies against hiring outside their religion or hiring homosexuals whose lifestyles conflict with church doctorines.In the other corner are separation-of-church-and-state advocates and human-rights organizations that say the government must constitutionally compel these organizations to follow nondiscrimination laws if they accept federal funding. Anything less, they say, would at best be a violation of church-state separation and at worst an implicit endorsement of discrimination.

...

Obama himself waded into the debate during the presidential campaign, delivering a widely viewed speech in Zanesville, Ohio, during which he endorsed faith-based programs, but said the beneficiaries of such government aid should be forced to cease discriminatory practices

"If you get a federal grant, you can't use that grant money to proselytize to the people you help and you can't discriminate against them -- or against the people you hire -- on the basis of their religion," Obama said in the July 1 speech at the East Side Community Ministry

...

"President Obama understands he's at risk of alienating the vast majority of the evangelical community," Rodriguez said.

Let's make this very easy to understand for everyone by using an example much easier to relate with. If the KKK was receiving government money and performing charity work is it OK for them to discriminate against black people when they hire workers for the charity services funded by gov't? No, it is not.

However, the KKK could receive funds if it does not have a policy of discriminating when it highers workers for the charity services. This does not mean they cannot discriminate for membership. What this means is that the KKK must clearly show the difference between members and workers who are paid using gov't funds.

This is simply a case where people are attempting to justify the means by the ends. That is, (going back to the KKK example) people are trying to convince others that it is ok for the KKK to discriminate in government funded programs as long as they help enough people.

It appears Obama is just trying to save face and is not reneging on his promise. Hopefully this will not be ANOTHER broken promise.

ReverendHellh0und · Feb 5, 2009

Are you seriously comparing faith based chairties to the KKK?

danarhea · Feb 5, 2009

I believe that government needs to stay out of the religion business - Period. I was against Bush doing this, and I am just as much against Obama doing this.

Democrat4life · Feb 5, 2009

scourge99 said:
CNN || Controversy surrounds Obama's faith office

Let's make this very easy to understand for everyone by using an example much easier to relate with. If the KKK was receiving government money and performing charity work is it OK for them to discriminate against black people when they hire workers for the charity services funded by gov't? No, it is not.

However, the KKK could receive funds if it does not have a policy of discriminating when it highers workers for the charity services. This does not mean they cannot discriminate for membership. What this means is that the KKK must clearly show the difference between members and workers who are paid using gov't funds.

This is simply a case where people are attempting to justify the means by the ends. That is, (going back to the KKK example) people are trying to convince others that it is ok for the KKK to discriminate in government funded programs as long as they help enough people.

It appears Obama is just trying to save face and is not reneging on his promise. Hopefully this will not be ANOTHER broken promise.

what broken promise? He's only been in office 15 days, give him some time!

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Are you seriously comparing faith based chairties to the KKK?

They are both just as bad in my opinion. If the churchs could launch a crusade against gays and lynch them, they would.

scourge99 · Feb 5, 2009

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Are you seriously comparing faith based chairties to the KKK?

Curtosy of Jerry: http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057912620-post458.html

A "loaded question", like a loaded gun, is a dangerous thing. A loaded question is a question with a false or questionable presupposition, and it is " loaded" with that presumption. The question "Have you stopped beating your wife?" presupposes that you have beaten your wife prior to its asking, as well as that you have a wife. If you are unmarried, or have never beaten your wife, then the question is loaded.Since this example is a yes/no question, there are only the following two direct answers:"Yes, I have stopped beating my wife", which entails "I was beating my wife.""No, I haven't stopped beating my wife", which entails "I am still beating my wife." If you answer "yes" then you are blindly following just whatever the text says.If you answer "no" then you don't really believe in the authority of the text.Quote: Since a question is not an argument, simply asking a loaded question is not a fallacious argument. Rather, loaded questions are typically used to trick someone into implying something they did not intend. For instance, salespeople learn to ask such loaded questions as: "Will that be cash or charge?" This question gives only two alternatives, thus presuming that the potential buyer has already decided to make a purchase, which is similar to the Black-or-White Fallacy. If the potential buyer answers the question directly, he may suddenly find himself an actual buyer.

So in reponse to your loaded question:

I'm comparing the discrimination. Nowhere do I say or even imply that the KKK and faith based charities are the same EXCEPT for their policies of. discrimination.

ReverendHellh0und · Feb 5, 2009

Democrat4life said:
what broken promise? He's only been in office 15 days, give him some time!

True believer. :doh:roll:

They are both just as bad in my opinion. If the churchs could launch a crusade against gays and lynch them, they would.

This sort of hatred you post makes you as bigoted IMO as the KKK.

ReverendHellh0und · Feb 5, 2009

scourge99 said:
Yes.. I'm comparing the discrimination. Nowhere do I say or even imply that the KKK and faith based charities are the same EXCEPT for their policies of discrimination.

Look over what I said again before you feign outrage with loaded questions. That appears to be your forte on this forum

You do know that many people of all faiths are helped by christian charities right?

What an ignorant statment on your part.

Democrat4life · Feb 5, 2009

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
This sort of hatred you post makes you as bigoted IMO as the KKK.

Uhm

Not really. Really. The church is against gays and if they could get away with lynching them all and stringing them from trees you know thye would. And I'm sure if they could launch another crusade against the Muslims they would.

The christian faith isnt so innocent, nor is it non-violent.

And I told you we wouldn't agree often xD

scourge99 · Feb 5, 2009

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
You do know that many people of all faiths are helped by christian charities right?

Yes, I do. What does that have to do with anything I posted??

You seem to be confused on what this thread is about.

Ikari · Feb 5, 2009

Democrat4life said:
Uhm

Not really. Really. The church is against gays and if they could get away with lynching them all and stringing them from trees you know thye would. And I'm sure if they could launch another crusade against the Muslims they would.

The christian faith isnt so innocent, nor is it non-violent.

And I told you we wouldn't agree often xD

The Christian faith is in and of itself ridiculously non-violent and accepting. The human implementation of it is not so much. But on the grander scale, I would agree that some churches (like that one from Kansas) would like to lynch gays and would lead a new war against Muslims. But I would have to say the majority probably not so much. Maybe I'm out of touch with what Christians want these days, I'm an atheist so I don't really keep up with it too much. But I wouldn't go ahead and lump them all into one basket like that.

ReverendHellh0und · Feb 5, 2009

Democrat4life said:
Uhm

Not really. Really. The church is against gays and if they could get away with lynching them all and stringing them from trees you know thye would. And I'm sure if they could launch another crusade against the Muslims they would.

The christian faith isnt so innocent, nor is it non-violent.

And I told you we wouldn't agree often xD

Uhm ok.....I would have trouble dumbing myself down to this level. Thanks for the conversation. :2wave:

JMak · Feb 5, 2009

scourge99 said:
Curtosy of Jerry: http://www.debatepolitics.com/1057912620-post458.html

So in reponse to your loaded question:

I'm comparing the discrimination. Nowhere do I say or even imply that the KKK and faith based charities are the same EXCEPT for their policies of. discrimination.

The KKK's policy of discrimination is no different than the DNC's or the NAACP's or the ACLU's. In other words, there isn't one. Each organization admits members because those members share something in common.

So your comparison is garbage.

Second, the KKK's discrimination is imposed via violence. Not so with any faith-based institution that I know of, unless we go global and go with Islam.

Democrat4life · Feb 5, 2009

Ikari said:
The Christian faith is in and of itself ridiculously non-violent and accepting. The human implementation of it is not so much. But on the grander scale, I would agree that some churches (like that one from Kansas) would like to lynch gays and would lead a new war against Muslims. But I would have to say the majority probably not so much. Maybe I'm out of touch with what Christians want these days, I'm an atheist so I don't really keep up with it too much. But I wouldn't go ahead and lump them all into one basket like that.

Well, the majority of churches are begining to accept the concept of homosexuality but they still b elive it is a sin and all that garbage. So to me, the KKK and faith-based organizations fall under the sam category for me.

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Uhm ok.....I would have trouble dumbing myself down to this level. Thanks for the conversation. :2wave:

......How would you have to dumb yourself down. Have you not read like 30% of your own posts? Really.

scourge99 · Feb 5, 2009

JMak said:
The KKK's policy of discrimination is no different than the DNC's or the NAACP's or the ACLU's. In other words, there isn't one. Each organization admits members because those members share something in common.

I acknowledged this. And as I noted the organizations must not discriminate when hiring employees with gov't money. This does not mean they can't discriminate when granting membership. Do you see the difference there? Employee/worker vs member? The article outlines this distinction as well.

Second, the KKK's discrimination is imposed via violence. Not so with any faith-based institution that I know of, unless we go global and go with Islam.

I mentioned nothing about KKK violence nor is it relevant to my comparison. I discussed how both groups discriminate when granting membership into their groups. Your objection is a non-sequitur.

Ikari · Feb 5, 2009

Democrat4life said:
Well, the majority of churches are begining to accept the concept of homosexuality but they still b elive it is a sin and all that garbage.

It's a church...they're free to believe as they like. If they want to believe it's a sin, let them. Who cares. They can't do anything about it legally, they can't use the government to round up the gays, they can't force them into "therapy", they can't infringe upon their rights; but they are free to believe it if that's what they so desire to believe in.

Democrat4life said:
So to me, the KKK and faith-based organizations fall under the sam category for me.

Freedom of speech. In that aspect, yes they are the same. I don't think the government should be funding faith based initiatives. As dan already stated, I didn't like it under Bush and I don't like it under Obama. But I don't think it's cause to disparage against religion as a whole.

ReverendHellh0und · Feb 5, 2009

Democrat4life said:
Well, the majority of churches are begining to accept the concept of homosexuality but they still b elive it is a sin and all that garbage. So to me, the KKK and faith-based organizations fall under the sam category for me.

Hate the sin not the sinner.... Love your enemy.... God is love....... a path to salvation...

Look at all that hate. please. :roll:

......How would you have to dumb yourself down. Have you not read like 30% of your own posts? Really.

Even my dmbest post is like mensa material to your current line of bigotry.

:2wave:

winston53660 · Feb 5, 2009

Reverend_Hellh0und said:
Even my dmbest post is like mensa material to your current line of bigotry.

:2wave:

I doubt mensa will be knocking on your door:2razz:

ReverendHellh0und · Feb 5, 2009

winston53660 said:
I doubt mensa will be knocking on your door:2razz:

:lol: nor would I want them, how boring! Lets get a beer instead....

WillRockwell · Feb 5, 2009

This entire program of giving money to faith based programs was begun by Bush to pander to the Christian vote. It makes it very sticky for Obama to cut back, though he should. Churches should not be getting taxpayer money.

Controversy surrounds Obama's faith office

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