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Contradicting Holocaust Deniers' Ideas

Gladiator

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There may be several possible ways to reduce the effectiveness of an Islamic Jihadist recruiting tool of Holocaust Denial.

There are at least two other threads on the Holocaust:

http://www.debatepolitics.com/conspiracy-theories/37889-free-speech-regarding-holocaust.html

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/45017-us-role-holocaust-fatalities.html


There are some claims by Holocaust Deniers that serve to discredit General/President Eisenhower, partly perhaps for his role in the takeover of Iran by the Shaw, in August 1953, shortly after becoming President of thd US in January,

Some Holocaust Deniers claim that some of the newspaper and history book accounts of the Holocaust do not include key information, that is necessay to put the facts or photos in perspective.

One way to reduce the persuasiveness of the Holocaust Denier arguments that are being used in recruiting for Islamic Jihad, could be to identify an unclear photos or statistics, and add clarifying detail, so that Holocaust denier would not be accurate in pointing out any official accounts that have not been corected for objectivity.

Many people may object to revising the way Westeners were taught about the Holocaust in school. This objection may be termed Revisionist History. If the way we learned in shool was less than objective, I would prefer that my progeny learn the full spectrum of balanced facts, rather than cleverly slanted impressions and omissions. Critical thinking could be an important part of education.

Some people posting in other threads have suggested the current history books are sufficiently accurate so as not to need revision. Some have suggested that if anyone regards any account of the Holocaust as exaggerated, then that is proof that the individual is beyond hope.

Are there other avenues available to contradict Holocaust Denier ideas?






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Gladiator said:
Here is a link to a timeline History of the Holocaust:


The History Place - Holocaust Timeline


Here is a Link to a Holocaust Glossary with info.

Vermont-NEA / Holocaust Curriculum



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Insofar as it is true that some anti-colonialists in the Middle East deny the Hitler murders it is, I think, just a counter-gesture to the way their beliefs are treated in the West (just look at any web-site that deals with politics and see the anti-Muslim filth). Unlike so many Europeans, and some right-wing Americans, of course, they had no complicity in what went on, and I think it is not very real to them. The laws against holocaust denial in Europe are based on the idea that only nazi sympathisers are likely to deny the fact, and there are still a (very very few) nazi sympathizers around. I still think it is a hopelessly bad tactic, but at least it made some sense. In the Middle East, however, denial is just an (ill-judged) part of opposing occupation and racism such as the nazis practiced in Europe, and it is silly to equate it with Austrian or German neo-nazism.
 
Combatting Holocaust Deniers



Combating Holocaust Denial: Evidence of the Holocaust presented at Nuremberg | Personal stories


US Holocaust Museun Website:


Combating Holocaust Denial: Evidence of the Holocaust presented at Nuremberg


Graphic photo of stacked bodies at Ohrdruf, 1945, no clothes;

http://www.eisenhower.archives.gov/Research/Digital_Documents/Holocaust/86122.pdf


Holocaust Information Links

Digital Documents and Photographs Project

Dwight D. Eisenhower Museum

The Eisenhower Presidential Library and Museum Homepage


Why Revisonism is wrong

"Since, as this list shows, the amount of empirical evidence for the Holocaust is so overwhelming, the "revisionists" must throw in another dismissal trick. This has been called the "falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus" condition (one thing mistaken equals all things mistaken). "



Why "Revisionism" Isn't








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You never told us you were thread banned.

Shayah asked you to post pertinint pics. I asked you some questions.

We'll continue here and elsewhere for as long as it takes.
 
Understanding he human mechanisms of Genocide Denail, Including Holocaust Denial.

"These chapters, in general, provide a useful guide to the dimensions of propagandistic genocide and massacre denial, although his chapter on deniers of the Jewish Holocaust appears to be in near-total ignorance of the long Australian history of this phenomenon, and totally ignores many Jewish community studies and sources. Up to a point, Taylor amply documents the ubiquity of attempts to deny or downplay many cases of genocide and massacre."

Quadrant Online - Historical Revision versus Holocaust Denial



"One of the most notable anti-Semitic propaganda movements to develop over the past two decades has been the organized effort to deny or minimize the established history of Nazi genocide against the Jews"

"This is precisely the intent of the Holocaust deniers: by attacking the facts of the Holocaust, and by framing this attack as merely an unorthodox point of view, their propaganda insinuates subtle but hateful anti-Semitic beliefs of Jews as exploiters of non-Jewish guilt and Jews as controllers of academia or the media. These beliefs, in fact, bear comparison to the preachings which brought Hitler to power in prewar Germany"


Holocaust Denial


Holocaust Denier Ideas:

Was there Really a Holocaust?



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I'll repost here what was asked of you in the other thread later today.
 
Tashah said:
I'll repost here what was asked of you in the other thread later today.
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Post 4 of this thread provides a Link to a photograph from the Eisenhower Museum website, of stacked bodies during the 1945 Invasion of Germany.

The question seems to be whether it is best to refuse any revisionsim, to avoid the argument that if some of the Holocaust information is false then more must be false.

Is revising historical accounts of the Holocaust, and the evidence found by Eisenhower upon his invasion, to be more inclusive, with more facts, helping Islamic Jihad to use Holocaust denial in recruiting?
 
Gladiator said:
Are there other avenues available to contradict Holocaust Denier ideas?
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I think that no matter what evidence you have you will never convince these people that the Holocaust did happen. You could have a video of Hitler ordering that every jew,polish and who ever the hell else they have in their concentration/prison camps be exterminated and videos of these people being exterminate in gas chambers and they would still claim it didn't happen.
There are like the Obama is not a natural born citizen, Bush lied to get us into Iraq, The man made global warming believers, the government masterminded 9-11 crowd and other fruitcakes.
 
Gladiator said:
Post 4 of this thread provides a Link to a photograph from the Eisenhower Museum website, of stacked bodies during the 1945 Invasion of Germany.
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I touched one of the wooden transport wagons Gladiator.

Gladiator said:
The question seems to be whether it is best to refuse any revisionsim, to avoid the argument that if some of the Holocaust information is false then more must be false.
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There is nothing inherently wrong with revising a conclusion - as long as this is accomplished by Holocaust academics and scholars and the revision is accepted as correct by the majority of such scholars.

Gladiator said:
Is revising historical accounts of the Holocaust, and the evidence found by Eisenhower upon his invasion, to be more inclusive, with more facts, helping Islamic Jihad to use Holocaust denial in recruiting?
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The Holocaust has been studied in depth since 1945. All documentation has been thoroughly studied. All material evidence examined. Thousands of eyewitness testimonies have been videotaped. All trials have been archived.

The physical data cannot be revised. It is what it is. The only viable place available for revisionism is in the philosophical realm. Most of these philosophical questions cannot be answered with abject certainity, because the lynchpin is missing (deceased).
 
Tashah said:
The physical data cannot be revised. It is what it is. The only viable place available for revisionism is in the philosophical realm.
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The Holocaust is more than the, Holocaust.

To Jewish People and people who consider Jewish people their neighbors, associates and friends, the Holocaust represents a betrayal. An organized government initiated unconsionable hardships, based on Religion. Several other Governments cooperated with the Nazi's, and more governments were aware, to some extent, and did less than a full-scale response. So the Holocaust repersents a Betrayal by governments, to varying degrees.


The Holocaust is also an emotional weak point for Israel and Zionists. So to Islamic Jihad, that seeks to challenge Israel, and the West, the Holocaust represents an OPPORTUNITY for Emotional Teasing, or Testing, as when a bully knocks off the hat of a seemingly unprotected passerby.


The Holocaust is also the response to Holocast Deniers by Israel, Jews and friends of Jews. Iran seeks to challenge Israel and the West. Perhaps a friendship can be developed, after a period of contesting wills.

The Holocaust is also a product of the Period of Eisenhower, as General and President. This period is an embarrassment to Iran, because Eisenhower deposed their government in 1953.


Jewish people and their friends, who take an overly sensitive approach to those who would affront the Jewish community, including friends of Jews, may need to examine their sensitivies, so that a meaningful dialogue can be undertaken, to debate and understand the issues being raised by the Holocaust Deniers, and find how those issues relate to current concerns, important to Holocaust deniers, themselves, today.


Perhaps Iran too, feels betrayed by Governments who are pretending to be highly moral, but have stabbed Iran in the back.






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If this is the case, what purpose is served by making denial a legal offence, as some countries do? It seems to me - and I've talked to soldiers who were at the liberation of the camps, one escapee (there weren't many) and at least one survivor, have no doubts whatever - that it merely leads younger people to ask, 'What have they got to hide'? - which is silly.
 
The Holocaust is many things. That is what makes it a unique event. One could also speculate that it was a betrayal of Christian morality.

Gladiator said:
The Holocaust is also an emotional weak point for Israel and Zionists.
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I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to say here. Could you phrase this in a different manner and expound a bit?

Gladiator said:
The Holocaust is also the response to Holocast Deniers by Israel, Jews and friends of Jews. Iran seeks to challenge Israel and the West. Perhaps a friendship can be developed, after a period of contesting wills.
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I have many Muslim friends and acquaintances in the Middle East. I have yet to meet one who considers the Holocaust as a charade and/or fallacy. Most think Ahmadinejad sounds like a total dumbass when he peddles his shtick.

Gladiator said:
The Holocaust is also a product of the Period of Eisenhower, as General and President. This period is an embarrassment to Iran, because Eisenhower deposed their government in 1953.
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I have no idea what you are saying here. How you connect the CIA machinations with Mossadeq to the Holocaust is lost on me.

You are free to put forth revisionism anytime. By the same token, others are also free to debunk your revisionism with vim and vigor.

Gladiator said:
Perhaps Iran too, feels betrayed by Governments who are pretending to be highly moral, but have stabbed Iran in the back.
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No government is a virgin.
 
Most such laws are in European nations where the major events actually transpired. It is a part of the fabric of their history. I think a part of it is to ensure that their horrible past experiments with racism and fascism are forever etched into the memory of their citizens.
 

But like the infallibility of the Pope? Never to be questioned or proved as the generations go by? It will not etch it in anyone's memory, just make it a pious nothing people don't hear or perhaps laugh about. Truth is always out in the open, fists up, fighting!
 
You have to remember that most of these laws were enacted very close to the event. There was nothing to question or prove. Would we today question or deny that Abu Ghraib actually happened? Of course not. It is vibrant and fresh within our memories. But as the decades drone on and living memory passes into oblivion, there are those who will propogate denial and revisionism to support an agenda.

I personally feel that such people should indeed have the ability to articulate Holocaust revisionism. It happens here every so often, and without fail the membership utterly destroyes them with the truth. The last revisionist here was “conquer”. Do you see him posting here anymore? Very rarely. Taking a beating from one end of Debate Politics to the other, he seems to have slithered away like his brethern before him.
 

So your recommendation is to ignore Ahmadinejad's ideas on the Holocaust? There is no meaning whatsoever behind his Holocaust Denial, except the rantings of a madman? Ignoring the use of the Holocuast as a recruiting tool is the best approach to countervening that tool of recruiting for Islamic Jiihad?

Have you asked your Muslim friends what are the factors underlying Ahmandinejad's Holocaust Denial, and no one has any idea of he undercurrents he is trying to create or address?

Mohammed Mossadeq was the prime ministier of Iran from 1951 to 1953. The US Embassy in Tehran is labled the Den of Spies. The Islamic Clergy still largely control Iran. To keep control, reminders of reasons to distrust the West may be part of the societal control mechanism?

Mohammed Mosaddeq - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



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I don't think Ahmadinejad's comments have been ignored. Do you? I also think your recruiting tool angle is a bit disingenuous. Islamic extremists hardly need the Holocaust to justify their extremism.

Gladiator said:
Have you asked your Muslim friends what are the factors underlying Ahmandinejad's Holocaust Denial, and no one has any idea of he undercurrents he is trying to create or address?
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I've been to Iran. The clerical regime isn't highly regarded.

Gladiator said:
Mohammed Mossadeq was the prime ministier of Iran from 1951 to 1953. The US Embassy in Tehran is labled the Den of Spies.
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Probably was. Virtually all US embassies have CIA and military attache's.

Gladiator said:
The Islamic Clergy still largely control Iran.
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No. They completely control Iran.

Gladiator said:
To keep control, reminders of reasons to distrust the West may be part of the societal control mechanism?
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The propaganda is mostly for foreign consumption. The regime uses the Pasdaran and gangs of Basij to maintain intimate control.
 

Pasdaran

Pasdaran - Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps (IRCG)

Basij

Basij - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


The Majd Hooman book explains the undercurrents of the meanings of Iran's Holocaust deniers, and how thier intent is to make points in the debate with the West, for the hearts and minds of the Persian people.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/middle-east/41815-obama-insults-iranians.html

To say that Iran's Mullahs rule by force alone, misses the oportunity for Israel and the West to do a better public relations job, for peace with its neighbors.

There are many in Israel, and many Westerners, who refuse to consider improved public relations strategies, with Israel's neighbors.


Some believe that defending all incomplete accounts of the Holocaust is the best way to handle Iran.










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Gladiator said:
Mohammed Mossadeq was the prime ministier of Iran from 1951 to 1953. The US Embassy in Tehran is labled the Den of Spies.
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One more point to be made here. In March of 2000, US Secretary of State Madeleine Albright gave a public speech in which she explicitly apologized for America's role in the 1953 overthrow of Mohammad Mossadegh. Iran has never in turn apologized for the US embassy hostage ordeal. Indeed, Iranian intransigence continues to this day...

Iran's Supreme Leader Rebuffs Obama
 
Article critcizing the effects of Westrn appology to Iran

The Politics of Apology - Stanley Kurtz - The Corner on National Review Online



"But that common ground has sometimes been shaken by other factors. In 1953 the United States played a significant role in orchestrating the overthrow of Iran's popular Prime Minister, Mohammed Massadegh. The Eisenhower Administration believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons; but the coup was clearly a setback for Iran's political development. And it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America in their internal affairs.

Moreover, during the next quarter century, the United States and the West gave sustained backing to the Shah's regime. Although it did much to develop the country economically, the Shah's government also brutally repressed political dissent."


3/17/00 Albright remarks on American-Iran Relations


Appolgy can be part of the approach toward recognizing what the Holocaust means to Iran.

Recognizing that Iran has a very different view of the Holocaust, and Eisenhower, than most of the rest of the world, is a first step.


Policies of mutual interest to Iran can be a further manner to make real progress toward a working relationship. Obama also renewed the Trade Embargo with Iran. Iran wouild benefit from a lifting of the US Trade Embargo. But the US renewed the Trade Embargo without an attempt at indirect negotiaon.

Hammas stopped firing Katusha rockets at Israel, AFTER Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza.

The US could have stated they expected XYZ concessions, and reversed the Trade Embargo. Then, if XYZ concesssions did not materialize, the US could have re-imposed the Trade Embargo.

Unilateral negotiation is probably the most workable form of negtotion with Iran, and the West has little expertise with Unilateral Negotiations.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Gladiator
Is revising historical accounts of the Holocaust, and the evidence found by Eisenhower upon his invasion, to be more inclusive, with more facts, helping Islamic Jihad to use Holocaust denial in recruiting?




The importance to the West of how the West manages the context of the Holocaust and the 1953 coup deposing Iran's Democratically elected government, are important, as measured by the effectiveness in recruiting for Islamic Jihad.

This is difficult for Westerners, because Westerners are not likely recruits for Islamic Jihad. So Westerners must make decisions based on little knowledge and less expertise.




The Westerrn Actions are used to recruit by placing the Western actions in the worst light, by the recruiters for Islamic Jihad. So I suggest the West take the kindliest actions possible, not so Westerners can get to Heaven, but rather, so that the Islamic recruiters have less effective propaganda, for recruiting.



The Movie "Syriana" shows the recruiting of a Jihadist, first to a Maderas school, then to weapons training, and fulfiling an assignment.

http://www.debatepolitics.com/music-entertainment/44351-syriana-movie.html

There was an appearnace recentlyh on 60 Minutes, I believe of a Palestinian recruiter for Islamic jihad. He explained his strategies, of criticizing the West with anything that might seem intersting to you recruits. The man on 60 Minutes had no involvement with weapons or Jihad assignments. His job was recruiting to non-violent cell groups. From the Cell groups, Jihdists were selected for recruiting for Jihad.

The other aspect that Majority Rule fails to understand is that criminals, or Jihadists, are often thinking from different motivational structures. Half the people are Left-Brain, follow instructions well; and half are Right-Brain, more createive. The top 5% of Right-Brain, creative people are called ADHD, which is a collection of a combination of any 7, of 12 character traits. There are more ADHD people, percentage-wise, in jail.

So Evaluating Western Policy, as it will be used by recruiters of creative thinkers, and rebels, is the challenge. Overlapping the ADHD group, some youngsters are ODD, which is Oppositional Defiant Disorder, which means that their rewards are in causing consternation, rather than traditional approval. So recruiting ODD youngsters is easier if there are societal myths that are being portrayed as falsehoods. Irianian Holocaust Deniers are not "Dumb", they are appealing to a particular set of young men and women who are susceptible to this type of persuasion. So very few Westerners have any clue as to the real dynamics of Islamic Jihad.


That is why M 1117's with stink spray is better than bullets, because everyone knows killing is bad.

I never understood why the question came up about stacked bodies in 1945. I saw maybe 8 different photos of stacked bodies on TV a couple weeks ao, on the show describing Typhus as a leading cause of death in Concentraion Camps. The show described how Eisenhower deliberately refused timely burials, so as to crate mounds of evidence for propaganda, and war crimes trials. The show gave a website, but I did not write it down, and did not turn it up in my searches. An early recollection, for me, was maybe in 5th grade History, there was a tiny picture in the history book of stacked bodies, with no clothes. I did not have access to porn at that time, nor did my fifth grade buddies, so we got a magnifying glass, to try to look for naked women. We couldn't not find any, as I recall.

I imagine that there are many surviving photos of stacked bodies from Concentration Camps in 1945. Was there some further discussion of that issue needed?









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Gladiator said:
Moreover, during the next quarter century, the United States and the West gave sustained backing to the Shah's regime. Although it did much to develop the country economically, the Shah's government also brutally repressed political dissent."
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Virtually every ME government during the Shah's reign repressed their populations.

Gladiator said:
Appolgy can be part of the approach toward recognizing what the Holocaust means to Iran. Recognizing that Iran has a very different view of the Holocaust, and Eisenhower, than most of the rest of the world, is a first step.
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Sorry. No Holocaust revisionism for the sake of political expediancy.

It would be hypocritical of Obama to lift US economic sanctions against Iran while UN sanctions remain viable and intact.

Gladiator said:
Hammas stopped firing Katusha rockets at Israel, AFTER Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza.
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You're completely wrong here. Hamas fired missiles at Israel the day after the withdrawal was complete.

Gladiator said:
The US could have stated they expected XYZ concessions, and reversed the Trade Embargo. Then, if XYZ concesssions did not materialize, the US could have re-imposed the Trade Embargo.
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Since the lifting of UN sanctions is dependent on Iranian performance, then it is the Iranians who must first comply with XYZ.

Gladiator said:
Unilateral negotiation is probably the most workable form of negtotion with Iran, and the West has little expertise with Unilateral Negotiations.
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Baloney. The EU has been unilaterally involved in negotiations with Iran for the past five years. Iran has refused all EU initiatives and proposals.

Gladiator said:
Is revising historical accounts of the Holocaust, and the evidence found by Eisenhower upon his invasion, to be more inclusive, with more facts, helping Islamic Jihad to use Holocaust denial in recruiting?
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As I explained to you previously, the accumulated material evidences - documents - photographs - testimonies - cannot be revised. They are what they are. During the past decade, Russia opened its previously classified Soviet WWII archives to Western historians. Nothing has been found which disagrees with or contradicts Western understandings of the Holocaust.

Gladiator said:
The importance to the West of how the West manages the context of the Holocaust and the 1953 coup deposing Iran's Democratically elected government, are important, as measured by the effectiveness in recruiting for Islamic Jihad.
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And I think this reasoning is a load of hogwash. The commingling of Holocaust history with the Massadegh overthrow is like trying to connect the American Civil War to the sinking of the USS Maine. It just doesn't work.

Gladiator said:
I imagine that there are many surviving photos of stacked bodies from Concentration Camps in 1945. Was there some further discussion of that issue needed?
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Not unless you still wish to pander revisionism.
 


Islamic Jihad supported by Iran is one of the West's problems with Iran. The West is plotting ways to accomplish Regime Change in Iran. The West is plotting bombing targets in Iran. All plans by Iran must be made with the idea that they are under satllite surveilance, and that the West is planning to send in military expedition teams. Where is the chance for Peace?

I have suggested adding factual details to public rhetoric on the Holocaust. Some call adding facts for perspective, Revisionism, and an affront to the memory of the Holocaust. Iran uses the fear of Revisonism as tactic to keep the West off balance.

Is the recruitment of youngsters into Islamic Jihad an unchangable number, and a complete eventuality? Are there changes in policy, that could be taken by the West, to reduce the dedication, or the number, of recruits for Islamic Jihad? Any potentially effective Policy changes that are realisticly possible for the West?



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Here is President Obama's video address to Iran and the Iranian people...

President Obama's Video Nowruz Message to Iran

The Iranian Supreme Leader has basically rejected this overture. He has strongly suggested that improved relations are conditional on capitulation.

Gladiator said:
I have suggested adding factual details to public rhetoric on the Holocaust. Some call adding facts for perspective, Revisionism, and an affront to the memory of the Holocaust. Iran uses the fear of Revisonism as tactic to keep the West off balance.
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Iran uses any tactic available to further its goal of ME hegemony.

There are many avenues to explore in this regard. Holocaust revisionism isn't among those many avenues. I would suggest that you PM gree0232
 
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