Not directly, which is why TOT is correct. The CIA never funneled money to Osama directly. But the CIA did funnel money to the Pakistani Intelligence Service, which then funneled lots of money to Osama and various Islamic fighters in Afghanistan. But to suggest that the US did not know where their money was ultimately going too, would be in complete denial of the reality of the Afghan war.
Are we gonna define "connection"?
is that the definition you have in mind for Saddam>al Qaeda also? or is the bar lowered in that case?
The 911 attack was the result of what we created in Afghanistan. I wonder what will happen after we pull out of Iraq? We have created another situation that will come back and bite us again. One would hope that our representatives and leaders would occasionally learn from history. Doesn't seem like the Bush people actually have a comprehensive foreign policy plan. They just close their eyes, say a little prayer, and roll the dice.I should have added training, but yes. That is my definition, of which Saddam did all three. And for the record I fully support the Lion of Panshere the true hero of the Soviet-Afghan war.
The 911 attack was the result of what we created in Afghanistan.
The 911 attack was the result of what we created in Afghanistan. I wonder what will happen after we pull out of Iraq? We have created another situation that will come back and bite us again. One would hope that our representatives and leaders would occasionally learn from history. Doesn't seem like the Bush people actually have a comprehensive foreign policy plan. They just close their eyes, say a little prayer, and roll the dice.
No actually it's the result of what Sayyid Qutb, Al-Banna, and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem al-Histani and Nazi Germany created IE the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic Fascism. The U.S. never funded AQ or OBL, our funding was limited and mostly went to those people who would become the Northern Alliance including their leader the Lion of Panjshir Ahmad Shah Massoud who coincidently was murdered by AQ 2 days before 9-11.
Interesting perspective on history. There certainly are a lot of pop culture revisionist historians out there these days.
Perhaps we should employ a similar train of logic with other historical examples as well. The Indians had their land stolen and were nearly wiped out because Columbus discovered America.
Hitler started WWII because Bismark helped unify Germany. Toyota is the world's largest auto maker because Commodore Perry sailed into Tokyo bay. I think we can find an almost infinite number of historical examples, based on this kind of psuedo logic, to support any theory you like.
That's not revisionist history it's concrete fact, Al Banna, Qutb, and the Grand Mufti were all devout admirers of Adolf Hitler and they allowed the Muslim Brotherhood to become the middle eastern intelligence wing of the Reich.
A) How is that in any way analogous to the fact that the ideological creators of Islamic Fascism are directly responsible for the creation of AQ?
I think it's just possible that your premise may be an over simplification. No agenda here though, right.
B) There are more Native Americans alive today than before the formation of the United States, and they didn't have a concept of property so the evil white man couldn't have "stolen," anything.
Another interesting perspective on history. More right wing pop culture pabulum.
WTF I don't understand what you're trying to say, how does my example of stating the historical fact that the Muslim Brotherhood which is the first Islamic Fascist organization and the direct for-runner to AQ using the same logic as your bullshit?
My, my. Such language. I think this post may have exceeded the bounds of appropriate decorum. Notice how shrill and defensive sounding the neo-cons have become(in the media and elsewhere). It's almost as if they were smart enough to realize that their days are numbered.
GIBSON: Well, did you have a suspicion that you were being required to issue visas to Mujahadeen, people who had been off to Afghanistan fighting the Soviets and now wanted to go to the U.S. for some strange reason?
SPRINGMANN: At the time, no. At the time, I thought it was plain visa fraud. Money was changing hands to get visas for people to go to the States.
It was only after I was out of the State Department and researching a couple of magazine articles that I learned from a local journalist and two good sources, one attached to a local university in Washington and one with the federal government, that what I was doing was challenging a CIA program to bring people to the United States for terrorist training, people recruited by the CIA and its asset, Usama bin Laden, and the idea was to get them trained and send them back to Afghanistan to fight the then Soviets.
GIBSON: So we -- then this would be classic blow back, I believe is the CIA expression. We train terrorists to fight somebody else, and they end up fighting us.
SPRINGMANN: Exactly. Nobody gave a thought, I think, to what happened once these guys were turned loose. Certainly, the countries in the region didn't want them back. They wouldn't let them back into their own countries because they had been trained to overthrow governments.
GIBSON: Well, is there -- so let's roll ahead to 2000 -- 2000, 2001, 2002 where we're facing a different kind of Usama bin Laden-trained person, and, you know, there's different things on their mind. Do you have the sense that they were still getting sort of this wave-through treatment with their visas?
SPRINGMANN: I'm beginning to think so. At the time, I thought that my complaints, my lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act, and my going directly to the Justice Department, the FBI, State Department's diplomatic security, the Government Accounting Office had kind of dried this thing up. But, obviously, it hasn't.
According to The Los Angeles Times, 15 of the 19 people who flew airplanes into buildings had got their visas at the CIA's consulate at Jetta (ph) where 15 to 20 of the people who worked there were Washington-based. Nearly everybody except myself and two other people worked for the CIA or the NSA or some other intelligence service.
The following is an excerpt from the July 18, 2002 broadcast of "The Big Story with John Gibson."
Michael Springmann is a former consular official stationed in Saudi Arabia during the late 1980s.
Springmann never ever said that OBL had ever been to the states. look again.TOT said:Umm OBL has never been to the states, this guy has no idea what he's talking about, he didn't work for the CIA and would have no clue whether or not OBL was an asset, does he offer any proof of that assertion?
How the CIA created Osama bin LadenMilt Bearden, the CIA's station chief in Pakistan from 1986 to 1989, admitted to the January 24, 2000, New Yorker that while he never personally met bin Laden, “Did I know that he was out there? Yes, I did ... [Guys like] bin Laden were bringing $20-$25 million a month from other Saudis and Gulf Arabs to underwrite the war. And that is a lot of money. It's an extra $200-$300 million a year. And this is what bin Laden did.”
In 1986, bin Laden brought heavy construction equipment from Saudi Arabia to Afghanistan. Using his extensive knowledge of construction techniques (he has a degree in civil engineering), he built “training camps”, some dug deep into the sides of mountains, and built roads to reach them.
These camps, now dubbed “terrorist universities” by Washington, were built in collaboration with the ISI and the CIA. The Afghan contra fighters, including the tens of thousands of mercenaries recruited and paid for by bin Laden, were armed by the CIA. Pakistan, the US and Britain provided military trainers.
Tom Carew, a former British SAS soldier who secretly fought for the mujaheddin told the August 13, 2000, British Observer, “The Americans were keen to teach the Afghans the techniques of urban terrorism — car bombing and so on — so that they could strike at the Russians in major towns ... Many of them are now using their knowledge and expertise to wage war on everything they hate.”
Al Qaeda (the Base), bin Laden's organisation, was established in 1987-88 to run the camps and other business enterprises. It is a tightly-run capitalist holding company — albeit one that integrates the operations of a mercenary force and related logistical services with “legitimate” business operations.
Bin Laden has simply continued to do the job he was asked to do in Afghanistan during the 1980s — fund, feed and train mercenaries. All that has changed is his primary customer. Then it was the ISI and, behind the scenes, the CIA. Today, his services are utilised primarily by the reactionary Taliban regime.
Ya uh huh and where is the evidence that OBL was a CIA asset or that anyone in the CIA has ever even met OBL let alone funded or armed him?
FYI: This is utter bullshit.B) There are more Native Americans alive today than before the formation of the United States, and they didn't have a concept of property so the evil white man couldn't have "stolen," anything.
The 911 attack was the result of what we created in Afghanistan. I wonder what will happen after we pull out of Iraq? We have created another situation that will come back and bite us again. One would hope that our representatives and leaders would occasionally learn from history. Doesn't seem like the Bush people actually have a comprehensive foreign policy plan. They just close their eyes, say a little prayer, and roll the dice.
FYI: This is utter bullshit.
Scholars' estimates of the total population of the Americas before European contact vary enormously, from a low of 10 million to a high of 112 million.[2]
the lack of property is absurd on its face
Not a lot of depth here.
Nothing about the Muslim Brotherhood? Nothing about religious fanaticism? You simply explain it away by implying that America breathed towards Afghanistan therefore we created a future 9/11?
And what exactly about our funding Afghani warriors against the Soviet Union made them adhere to the strictest of governance long after we moved on? What exactly was it about our helping them against the Kremlin angered them enough to create the Tali-Ban? And how far and how lang are we supposed to hold the hands of these countries before we may as well plant an American flag and demand allegiance? Does this mean that every time we aid someone against an enemy that we should be able to forecast them to betray that training on us in the future?
I'm afraid there is much more to this issue than casually looking for America to blame. And there is far more to blame for our foriegn policy than just the current administration. You used dice and stated that they close their eyes and pray. Welcome to the last thirty years of our Middle Eastern foriegn policy. In case you aren't aware, Presidential administrations of both parties have been ignoring this growing threat for some time. And they will continiue
Gotta love our gas prices. But, one way or another, we are going to pay for it. If you wish us to seperate from the Middle East and all the garbage that comes with it, park your car.
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