CIA and al Qaeda

[niftydrifty]

My friend TOT says there was no connection between the two. so here's a simple question:

has there ever been a connection between the CIA and al Qaeda?

 

[Australianlibertarian]

Not directly, which is why TOT is correct. The CIA never funneled money to Osama directly. But the CIA did funnel money to the Pakistani Intelligence Service, which then funneled lots of money to Osama and various Islamic fighters in Afghanistan. But to suggest that the US did not know where their money was ultimately going too, would be in complete denial of the reality of the Afghan war.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Not directly, which is why TOT is correct. The CIA never funneled money to Osama directly. But the CIA did funnel money to the Pakistani Intelligence Service, which then funneled lots of money to Osama and various Islamic fighters in Afghanistan. But to suggest that the US did not know where their money was ultimately going too, would be in complete denial of the reality of the Afghan war.

OBL was never an asset, we funded and armed many members the Mujahadeen but OBL was not amongst them.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

Are we gonna define "connection"?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Are we gonna define "connection"?

Funding and arming.

 

[niftydrifty]

is that the definition you have in mind for Saddam>al Qaeda also? or is the bar lowered in that case?

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

is that the definition you have in mind for Saddam>al Qaeda also? or is the bar lowered in that case?

I should have added training, but yes. That is my definition, of which Saddam did all three. And for the record I fully support the Lion of Panshere the true hero of the Soviet-Afghan war.

 

[Mr Smith]

I should have added training, but yes. That is my definition, of which Saddam did all three. And for the record I fully support the Lion of Panshere the true hero of the Soviet-Afghan war.

The 911 attack was the result of what we created in Afghanistan. I wonder what will happen after we pull out of Iraq? We have created another situation that will come back and bite us again. One would hope that our representatives and leaders would occasionally learn from history. Doesn't seem like the Bush people actually have a comprehensive foreign policy plan. They just close their eyes, say a little prayer, and roll the dice.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

The 911 attack was the result of what we created in Afghanistan.

No actually it's the result of what Sayyid Qutb, Al-Banna, and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem al-Histani and Nazi Germany created IE the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic Fascism. The U.S. never funded AQ or OBL, our funding was limited and mostly went to those people who would become the Northern Alliance including their leader the Lion of Panjshir Ahmad Shah Massoud who coincidently was murdered by AQ 2 days before 9-11.

 

[Vader]

The 911 attack was the result of what we created in Afghanistan. I wonder what will happen after we pull out of Iraq? We have created another situation that will come back and bite us again. One would hope that our representatives and leaders would occasionally learn from history. Doesn't seem like the Bush people actually have a comprehensive foreign policy plan. They just close their eyes, say a little prayer, and roll the dice.

Security is so tight now that not even light can escape. I think we may see future attempts at terrorist attacks; however, far fewer will actually succeed.

 

[Mr Smith]

No actually it's the result of what Sayyid Qutb, Al-Banna, and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem al-Histani and Nazi Germany created IE the Muslim Brotherhood and Islamic Fascism. The U.S. never funded AQ or OBL, our funding was limited and mostly went to those people who would become the Northern Alliance including their leader the Lion of Panjshir Ahmad Shah Massoud who coincidently was murdered by AQ 2 days before 9-11.

Interesting perspective on history. There certainly are a lot of pop culture revisionist historians out there these days. Perhaps we should employ a similar train of logic with other historical examples as well. The Indians had their land stolen and were nearly wiped out because Columbus discovered America. Hitler started WWII because Bismark helped unify Germany. Toyota is the world's largest auto maker because Commodore Perry sailed into Tokyo bay. I think we can find an almost infinite number of historical examples, based on this kind of psuedo logic, to support any theory you like.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Interesting perspective on history. There certainly are a lot of pop culture revisionist historians out there these days.

That's not revisionist history it's concrete fact, Al Banna, Qutb, and the Grand Mufti were all devout admirers of Adolf Hitler and they allowed the Muslim Brotherhood to become the middle eastern intelligence wing of the Reich.

Perhaps we should employ a similar train of logic with other historical examples as well. The Indians had their land stolen and were nearly wiped out because Columbus discovered America.

A) How is that in any way analogous to the fact that the ideological creators of Islamic Fascism are directly responsible for the creation of AQ?

B) There are more Native Americans alive today than before the formation of the United States, and they didn't have a concept of property so the evil white man couldn't have "stolen," anything.

Hitler started WWII because Bismark helped unify Germany. Toyota is the world's largest auto maker because Commodore Perry sailed into Tokyo bay. I think we can find an almost infinite number of historical examples, based on this kind of psuedo logic, to support any theory you like.

WTF I don't understand what you're trying to say, how does my example of stating the historical fact that the Muslim Brotherhood which is the first Islamic Fascist organization and the direct for-runner to AQ using the same logic as your bullshit?

 

[Mr Smith]

That's not revisionist history it's concrete fact, Al Banna, Qutb, and the Grand Mufti were all devout admirers of Adolf Hitler and they allowed the Muslim Brotherhood to become the middle eastern intelligence wing of the Reich.



A) How is that in any way analogous to the fact that the ideological creators of Islamic Fascism are directly responsible for the creation of AQ?
I think it's just possible that your premise may be an over simplification. No agenda here though, right.
B) There are more Native Americans alive today than before the formation of the United States, and they didn't have a concept of property so the evil white man couldn't have "stolen," anything.
Another interesting perspective on history. More right wing pop culture pabulum.




WTF I don't understand what you're trying to say, how does my example of stating the historical fact that the Muslim Brotherhood which is the first Islamic Fascist organization and the direct for-runner to AQ using the same logic as your bullshit?

My, my. Such language. I think this post may have exceeded the bounds of appropriate decorum. Notice how shrill and defensive sounding the neo-cons have become(in the media and elsewhere). It's almost as if they were smart enough to realize that their days are numbered.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

My, my. Such language. I think this post may have exceeded the bounds of appropriate decorum. Notice how shrill and defensive sounding the neo-cons have become(in the media and elsewhere). It's almost as if they were smart enough to realize that their days are numbered.

How is it defensive? Your original post made no sense and this one even less so.

 

[niftydrifty]

The following is an excerpt from the July 18, 2002 broadcast of "The Big Story with John Gibson."

Michael Springmann is a former consular official stationed in Saudi Arabia during the late 1980s.

GIBSON: Well, did you have a suspicion that you were being required to issue visas to Mujahadeen, people who had been off to Afghanistan fighting the Soviets and now wanted to go to the U.S. for some strange reason?

SPRINGMANN: At the time, no. At the time, I thought it was plain visa fraud. Money was changing hands to get visas for people to go to the States.

It was only after I was out of the State Department and researching a couple of magazine articles that I learned from a local journalist and two good sources, one attached to a local university in Washington and one with the federal government, that what I was doing was challenging a CIA program to bring people to the United States for terrorist training, people recruited by the CIA and its asset, Usama bin Laden, and the idea was to get them trained and send them back to Afghanistan to fight the then Soviets.

GIBSON: So we -- then this would be classic blow back, I believe is the CIA expression. We train terrorists to fight somebody else, and they end up fighting us.

SPRINGMANN: Exactly. Nobody gave a thought, I think, to what happened once these guys were turned loose. Certainly, the countries in the region didn't want them back. They wouldn't let them back into their own countries because they had been trained to overthrow governments.

GIBSON: Well, is there -- so let's roll ahead to 2000 -- 2000, 2001, 2002 where we're facing a different kind of Usama bin Laden-trained person, and, you know, there's different things on their mind. Do you have the sense that they were still getting sort of this wave-through treatment with their visas?

SPRINGMANN: I'm beginning to think so. At the time, I thought that my complaints, my lawsuit under the Freedom of Information Act, and my going directly to the Justice Department, the FBI, State Department's diplomatic security, the Government Accounting Office had kind of dried this thing up. But, obviously, it hasn't.

According to The Los Angeles Times, 15 of the 19 people who flew airplanes into buildings had got their visas at the CIA's consulate at Jetta (ph) where 15 to 20 of the people who worked there were Washington-based. Nearly everybody except myself and two other people worked for the CIA or the NSA or some other intelligence service.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

The following is an excerpt from the July 18, 2002 broadcast of "The Big Story with John Gibson."

Michael Springmann is a former consular official stationed in Saudi Arabia during the late 1980s.

Umm OBL has never been to the states, this guy has no idea what he's talking about, he didn't work for the CIA and would have no clue whether or not OBL was an asset, does he offer any proof of that assertion?

 

[niftydrifty]

Umm OBL has never been to the states, this guy has no idea what he's talking about, he didn't work for the CIA and would have no clue whether or not OBL was an asset, does he offer any proof of that assertion?

Springmann never ever said that OBL had ever been to the states. look again.

Is Springmann's word not proof enough for you? and yet the quotes in Stephen Hayes articles are? Very interesting.

I was hoping you could post evidence indicating that Springmann is wrong.

 

[niftydrifty]

Milt Bearden, the CIA's station chief in Pakistan from 1986 to 1989, admitted to the January 24, 2000, New Yorker that while he never personally met bin Laden, “Did I know that he was out there? Yes, I did ... [Guys like] bin Laden were bringing $20-$25 million a month from other Saudis and Gulf Arabs to underwrite the war. And that is a lot of money. It's an extra $200-$300 million a year. And this is what bin Laden did.”

In 1986, bin Laden brought heavy construction equipment from Saudi Arabia to Afghanistan. Using his extensive knowledge of construction techniques (he has a degree in civil engineering), he built “training camps”, some dug deep into the sides of mountains, and built roads to reach them.

These camps, now dubbed “terrorist universities” by Washington, were built in collaboration with the ISI and the CIA. The Afghan contra fighters, including the tens of thousands of mercenaries recruited and paid for by bin Laden, were armed by the CIA. Pakistan, the US and Britain provided military trainers.

Tom Carew, a former British SAS soldier who secretly fought for the mujaheddin told the August 13, 2000, British Observer, “The Americans were keen to teach the Afghans the techniques of urban terrorism — car bombing and so on — so that they could strike at the Russians in major towns ... Many of them are now using their knowledge and expertise to wage war on everything they hate.”

Al Qaeda (the Base), bin Laden's organisation, was established in 1987-88 to run the camps and other business enterprises. It is a tightly-run capitalist holding company — albeit one that integrates the operations of a mercenary force and related logistical services with “legitimate” business operations.

Bin Laden has simply continued to do the job he was asked to do in Afghanistan during the 1980s — fund, feed and train mercenaries. All that has changed is his primary customer. Then it was the ISI and, behind the scenes, the CIA. Today, his services are utilised primarily by the reactionary Taliban regime.

How the CIA created Osama bin Laden

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

How the CIA created Osama bin Laden

Ya uh huh and where is the evidence that OBL was a CIA asset or that anyone in the CIA has ever even met OBL let alone funded or armed him?

 

[niftydrifty]

Ya uh huh and where is the evidence that OBL was a CIA asset or that anyone in the CIA has ever even met OBL let alone funded or armed him?

Met

CRG -- The CIA met Bin Laden while undergoing treatment at an American Hospital last July in Dubai
CIA agent alleged to have met Bin Laden in July | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

Funded and Armed

All signs pointed to bin Laden
http://www.janes.com/regional_news/americas/news/jdw/jdw010914_1_n.shtml

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

Met

CRG -- The CIA met Bin Laden while undergoing treatment at an American Hospital last July in Dubai
CIA agent alleged to have met Bin Laden in July | Special reports | Guardian Unlimited

These are uncomfirmed reports from some nurse or some crap, and there is no evidence what so ever that it's true, these bullshit articles from the far left have been passed around by conspiracy kooks for years now. They're a freaking joke it uses anonomous sources for all anybody knows these "witnesses" don't exist and the author made the whole thing up off the top of his head I mean for Christ's sakes the article proves itself to be bullshit by the very fact that these people some how automatically knew that this guy was CIA, did he wear a ****ing name tag: "Hello my name is Joe so and so and I work for the CIA? Give me a god damn break, if this was a "CIA Chief" as your article claims then who exactly was it? Is this article seriously asserting that George Tenet met with OBL?

Funded and Armed

All signs pointed to bin Laden
http://www.janes.com/regional_news/americas/news/jdw/jdw010914_1_n.shtml

The first article says that we supported the Mujahdeen, the Mujahadeen was not a uniform group and allthough we funded members of the Mujahadeen OBL was not one of them. As for the second article they have presented 0 evidence to back their assertions, they do the same thing as you are doing, repeat it enough times and it becomes true, but for the record they're full of **** and so are you.

 

[Simon W. Moon]

B) There are more Native Americans alive today than before the formation of the United States, and they didn't have a concept of property so the evil white man couldn't have "stolen," anything.

FYI: This is utter bullshit.


Scholars' estimates of the total population of the Americas before European contact vary enormously, from a low of 10 million to a high of 112 million.[2]

American Indian and Alaska Native persons, percent, 2005 (a) 1.0% of 296,410,404 => 2,964,104

the lack of property is absurd on its face

 

[MSgt]

The 911 attack was the result of what we created in Afghanistan. I wonder what will happen after we pull out of Iraq? We have created another situation that will come back and bite us again. One would hope that our representatives and leaders would occasionally learn from history. Doesn't seem like the Bush people actually have a comprehensive foreign policy plan. They just close their eyes, say a little prayer, and roll the dice.

Not a lot of depth here.

Nothing about the Muslim Brotherhood? Nothing about religious fanaticism? You simply explain it away by implying that America breathed towards Afghanistan therefore we created a future 9/11?

And what exactly about our funding Afghani warriors against the Soviet Union made them adhere to the strictest of governance long after we moved on? What exactly was it about our helping them against the Kremlin angered them enough to create the Tali-Ban? And how far and how lang are we supposed to hold the hands of these countries before we may as well plant an American flag and demand allegiance? Does this mean that every time we aid someone against an enemy that we should be able to forecast them to betray that training on us in the future?

I'm afraid there is much more to this issue than casually looking for America to blame. And there is far more to blame for our foriegn policy than just the current administration. You used dice and stated that they close their eyes and pray. Welcome to the last thirty years of our Middle Eastern foriegn policy. In case you aren't aware, Presidential administrations of both parties have been ignoring this growing threat for some time. And they will continiue

Gotta love our gas prices. But, one way or another, we are going to pay for it. If you wish us to seperate from the Middle East and all the garbage that comes with it, park your car.

 

[Trajan Octavian Titus]

FYI: This is utter bullshit.


Scholars' estimates of the total population of the Americas before European contact vary enormously, from a low of 10 million to a high of 112 million.[2]

Now find me the figures from the late 18th century you know around the time of the formation of the United States.

There are currently 4,119,301 Native American's residing in the United States.

http://www.census.gov/prod/2002pubs/c2kbr01-15.pdf

In the first census of the new US govt in 1800, NA pop counted at 600,000 while that number is probably low even if you triple it there's more today then before the U.S. was established.

CHRONOLOGY OF UNITED STATES ETHNIC HISTORY

the lack of property is absurd on its face

Umm no it's not, the Natives didn't understand the concept of property so how could we have stolen it? They sold Manhattan for some beads to bad so sad they weren't going to do **** with it anyways they hadn't even discovered the wheel.

 

[Mr Smith]

Not a lot of depth here.

Nothing about the Muslim Brotherhood? Nothing about religious fanaticism? You simply explain it away by implying that America breathed towards Afghanistan therefore we created a future 9/11?

And what exactly about our funding Afghani warriors against the Soviet Union made them adhere to the strictest of governance long after we moved on? What exactly was it about our helping them against the Kremlin angered them enough to create the Tali-Ban? And how far and how lang are we supposed to hold the hands of these countries before we may as well plant an American flag and demand allegiance? Does this mean that every time we aid someone against an enemy that we should be able to forecast them to betray that training on us in the future?

I'm afraid there is much more to this issue than casually looking for America to blame. And there is far more to blame for our foriegn policy than just the current administration. You used dice and stated that they close their eyes and pray. Welcome to the last thirty years of our Middle Eastern foriegn policy. In case you aren't aware, Presidential administrations of both parties have been ignoring this growing threat for some time. And they will continiue

Gotta love our gas prices. But, one way or another, we are going to pay for it. If you wish us to seperate from the Middle East and all the garbage that comes with it, park your car.

Not a lot of depth. Probably a fair comment. Although dredging the shallows seems to have prompted considerable response. Albeit a predictably formulaic response. I suppose when you cherry pick information to create false context, your view makes perfect sense. Political agenda has a way of creating it's own reality.
I wonder if some people might have just forgotten about Saudi Arabia's role in Afghanistan. In close cooperation with the CIA the Saudis were instrumental in bringing Jihad to Afghanistan. They equalled the US funding of the insurgency. The CIA encouraged the spread of Wahhabism in the region. Part of their stategy was to encourage rebellion amoung the muslim populace of the Soviet Union. Wahabbist theology was the dominant philosophy in the CIA supported training camps in Pakistan. There were many Saudis on the ground to help facilitate this. The fanatic Islamic ideology has taken root in places where it never existed before. All with the knowlege and encouragement of the CIA.
Our supposed friend and ally, Saudi Arabia, is the primary source of fundementalist Islamic oppression and terror in the world. Home of the 911 terrorists. Think about that the next time you gas up. The Muslim Brotherhood is irrelevant to this issue except as a convenient rhetorical devise. The crude attempts by neo-cons to link Islam with fascism don't really work any more. I understand that they are just trying to frame the conflict in a way that makes sense to Americans. Like it's WWII again. Makes us nostalgic. We would like to have a good war. You know. A war that Americans can fight for freedom and democracy. Because we love our country and have great pride as Americans. We stand for truth, justice and equality for all people everywhere. And most of all, we sacrifice now so our children can live in peace. It would be nice.
Blaming this country for the world's problems isn't very productive. Ignoring what this country has done and white washing history to suit current political agenda doesn't help much either.