Church or State?

[reinaert]

This happened the town over from me. I'll excerpt enough to make sense, but the full read might be worth the time:

"...Goffstown’s School Board approved a policy last year allowing Gross to sue families with delinquent debt in small claims court. Around the same time that policy was approved, Rev. Jason Wells at St. Matthew’s Episcopal Church offered to cancel the debts. Instead, some families are now being sued by the district.

Wells told InDepthNH.org on Friday he spoke to Gross about the parish’s offer to make an end of year Christmas gift to the district. Parishioners wanted to pay off all outstanding student lunch debt at the end of the calendar year, then estimated to be between $3,000 and $5,000. But Gross was not interested in the offer, Wells said..."

Some background: Goffstown is fairly rural and conservative.

The pastor, in the spirit of his faith, wanted to pay the lunch debts for all families. The school district boss turned him down and sued the families instead.

Thoughts?

 

[BirdinHand]

that’s messed up.

If an organization wants to cover the debt, let them.

That’s probably lunch balances and maybe fees for library books not returned or damaged by kids.

 

[reinaert]

that’s messed up.

If an organization wants to cover the debt, let them.

That’s probably lunch balances and maybe fees for library books not returned or damaged by kids.

It seems pretty, what's the word? - mean spirited - not to let this congregation do a very, authentically Christian thing.

 

[BirdinHand]

It seems pretty, what's the word? - mean spirited - not to let this congregation do a very, authentically Christian thing.

And vengeful considering now they’re suing the families.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

What would Jesus do?

More to the point, look at any U.S. currency bill of any denomination. It reads "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." That means when a debt is owed, the creditor is obligated to accept cash in payment of the debt. They cannot say "No, we want payment in Swiss francs!" Nor can they refuse payment from a third party. Any court in the country will throw out any refusal to accept cash from a third party.

This suit will go nowhere if the church pastor steps up in court and offers to pay the debts. The court will have no choice but to dismiss the suit.

 

[reinaert]

What would Jesus do?

More to the point, look at any U.S. currency bill of any denomination. It reads "This note is legal tender for all debts, public and private." That means when a debt is owed, the creditor is obligated to accept cash in payment of the debt. They cannot say "No, we want payment in Swiss francs!" Nor can they refuse payment from a third party. Any court in the country will throw out any refusal to accept cash from a third party.

This suit will go nowhere if the church pastor steps up in court and offers to pay the debts. The court will have no choice but to dismiss the suit.

I'm not sanguine on the law, but it might be less simple than that.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

I'm not sanguine on the law, but it might be less simple than that.

Judges are not typically tolerant of nuisance lawsuits. They don't like the courts being used to make political statements.

One of the arguments against St. Matthew’s helping that Gross raised with Wells last year, is that some of the families don’t qualify under the guidelines as poor and should therefore be made to pay. A blanket gift for all the debt would be helping people who did not deserve the assistance. But for Wells, that’s not the point. He cited Catholic author and activist Dorothy Day who said, “The Gospel takes away our right forever to discriminate between the deserving and the undeserving poor.”

 

[reinaert]

Judges are not typically tolerant of nuisance lawsuits. They don't like the courts being used to make political statements.

Goffstown statute authorizes the suits. It's not my experience that Hillsborough County/Goffstown DC will overturn local statutes.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

Goffstown statute authorizes the suits. It's not my experience that Hillsborough County DC will overturn local statutes.

Again, someone has offered to pay the debt. The courts will not refuse that offer.

 

[reinaert]

Again, someone has offered to pay the debt. The courts will not refuse that offer.

So, as to specifics, I'm not sure you're right. But, very generally it seems like mere politics to refuse the resolution of a debt just because a church wants to step in.

 

[reinaert]

I forgot the actual link. Whisky, man..

Goffstown Turns Down Gift and Sues Families Over Lunch Debt Instead

After rejecting an offer from a local church to pay off all student lunch debt, Goffstown School District Business Administrator Scott Gross is instead taking families to court.

indepthnh.org

 

[Stealers Wheel]

So, as to specifics, I'm not sure you're right. But, very generally it seems like mere politics to refuse the resolution of a debt just because a church wants to step in.

No judge is going to entertain the notion that the debt be paid by a specific party. In that case, the pastor could just show up, hand the family the cash and say "pay your debt." No judge will disallow that.

 

[TheDoctorWasIn]

Again, someone has offered to pay the debt. The courts will not refuse that offer.

The church can step in and pay a debt - or even a legal judgment, probably - for whatever they want. But the point of what the church was trying to do was avoid the lawsuits entirely.

This man Mr. Gross apparently believes that having the church pay off the debt doesn't punish these families for their irresponsibility enough, though.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

It sounds to me like Scott Gross is on some sort of power trip.

In the article he claims the board has to approve any 'gifts' and yet the offer was never presented to the board for their consideration. He apparently rejected the offer unilaterally.

While they can't accept gifts without a vote, they apparently can be named a plaintiff in lawsuits without a vote.

School board might soon be in the market for a new business administrator.

 

[btthegreat]

No judge is going to entertain the notion that the debt be paid by a specific party. In that case, the pastor could just show up, hand the family the cash and say "pay your debt." No judge will disallow that.

The perceived problem is the transference of funds from the church directly to the secular school. The pastor could do the emboldened , and it would be perfect, but its incredibly inefficient. The school cannot release a list of names of the indebted families to the Pastor or the public, before it becomes public record in a lawsuit. The pastor instead could advertise that needy families come forward, and hand them a check to cover the bill, but will they pay the bill with it?

 

[NWRatCon]

The church can step in and pay a debt - or even a legal judgment, probably - for whatever they want. But the point of what the church was trying to do was avoid the lawsuits entirely.

This man Mr. Gross apparently believes that having the church pay off the debt doesn't punish these families for their irresponsibility enough, though.

When I read this comment, I got the distinct impression this man ought to be fired:
"Gross acknowledges he never brought the St. Matthew’s gift offer to the board, saying it would not have helped and the district could not accept the funding anyway." He's now the district's legal counsel? Not his job. If I were on the board, I'd at least reprimand him for not keeping the board informed.

 

[reinaert]

When I read this comment, I got the distinct impression this man ought to be fired:
"Gross acknowledges he never brought the St. Matthew’s gift offer to the board, saying it would not have helped and the district could not accept the funding anyway." He's now the district's legal counsel? Not his job. If I were on the board, I'd at least reprimand him for not keeping the board informed.

He was once a town selectman who tried to lead the charge to change Goffstown from a town mtg/board of selectmen government to one with a more centralized and unelected town manager, which job tends to be farmed out to outsiders.

 

[reinaert]

This is the front of St Matthew's, fwiw:

 

[NWRatCon]

He was once a town selectman who tried to lead the charge to change Goffstown from a town mtg/board of selectmen government to one with a more centralized and unelected town manager, which job tends to be farmed out to outsiders.

Explains much.