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Putting this out to Christians in the crowd...atheists, feel free to jump in as well, just know that we know you don't believe in God, so you can skip all the usual trolling, and just apply your logic to this as a hypothetical / philosophical discussion. Just trying to keep things respectful, I think the discussion will be more interesting that way, vs. the usual rinse and repeat us vs. them that always happens in this sub forum.
Been wrestling with this one for years. Christians like to talk about free will, that God always gives a choice, but I struggle with that because of the following assumptions:
1) God is infallible, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent
2) God has a plan or purpose for his creation
3) The Holy Spirit determines who receives the gifts of the spirit, one of which is Faith
4) We are saved through Faith alone.
(Can provide biblical references, but would assume most people jumping into this conversation would be aware of these precepts).
If the above is true, then Choice would allow you to thwart God's plan. If Choice is not possible, then it is impossible for us to save ourselves, as faith is given by the Holy Spirit. So, is the Christian claim of "free will" actually a claim that we are mightier than God? If so, is that what we really believe, and if not, must we conclude that every aspect of our life, which would be knowable before it happens by an omniscient God, and shapeable by an omnipresent, omnipotent God, must conform to an undefeatable Plan? Is everything in life pre-determined by an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing God, and choice is actually an illusion?
Looking for a logical discussion based on the above, or, if you wish to present scriptural references, I'd be interested in how you think they trump the above logic.
No axe to grind here, just something I'm interested in, it in no way shapes my own faith, I'm just posting a chat, and would be interested in your thoughts.
Here's the problem with free will in this case:
This god created the universe, everything in it and the rules by which souls are judged. That includes Hell.
If there is nothing that doesn't go according to this god's plan, that means this god is ultimately responsible for literally everything and that include people it sends to Hell.
Putting this out to Christians in the crowd...atheists, feel free to jump in as well, just know that we know you don't believe in God, so you can skip all the usual trolling, and just apply your logic to this as a hypothetical / philosophical discussion. Just trying to keep things respectful, I think the discussion will be more interesting that way, vs. the usual rinse and repeat us vs. them that always happens in this sub forum.
Been wrestling with this one for years. Christians like to talk about free will, that God always gives a choice, but I struggle with that because of the following assumptions:
1) God is infallible, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent
2) God has a plan or purpose for his creation
3) The Holy Spirit determines who receives the gifts of the spirit, one of which is Faith
4) We are saved through Faith alone.
(Can provide biblical references, but would assume most people jumping into this conversation would be aware of these precepts).
If the above is true, then Choice would allow you to thwart God's plan. If Choice is not possible, then it is impossible for us to save ourselves, as faith is given by the Holy Spirit. So, is the Christian claim of "free will" actually a claim that we are mightier than God? If so, is that what we really believe, and if not, must we conclude that every aspect of our life, which would be knowable before it happens by an omniscient God, and shapeable by an omnipresent, omnipotent God, must conform to an undefeatable Plan? Is everything in life pre-determined by an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing God, and choice is actually an illusion?
Looking for a logical discussion based on the above, or, if you wish to present scriptural references, I'd be interested in how you think they trump the above logic.
No axe to grind here, just something I'm interested in, it in no way shapes my own faith, I'm just posting a chat, and would be interested in your thoughts.
Putting this out to Christians in the crowd...atheists, feel free to jump in as well, just know that we know you don't believe in God, so you can skip all the usual trolling, and just apply your logic to this as a hypothetical / philosophical discussion. Just trying to keep things respectful, I think the discussion will be more interesting that way, vs. the usual rinse and repeat us vs. them that always happens in this sub forum.
Been wrestling with this one for years. Christians like to talk about free will, that God always gives a choice, but I struggle with that because of the following assumptions:
1) God is infallible, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent
2) God has a plan or purpose for his creation
3) The Holy Spirit determines who receives the gifts of the spirit, one of which is Faith
4) We are saved through Faith alone.
(Can provide biblical references, but would assume most people jumping into this conversation would be aware of these precepts).
If the above is true, then Choice would allow you to thwart God's plan. If Choice is not possible, then it is impossible for us to save ourselves, as faith is given by the Holy Spirit. So, is the Christian claim of "free will" actually a claim that we are mightier than God? If so, is that what we really believe, and if not, must we conclude that every aspect of our life, which would be knowable before it happens by an omniscient God, and shapeable by an omnipresent, omnipotent God, must conform to an undefeatable Plan? Is everything in life pre-determined by an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing God, and choice is actually an illusion?
Looking for a logical discussion based on the above, or, if you wish to present scriptural references, I'd be interested in how you think they trump the above logic.
No axe to grind here, just something I'm interested in, it in no way shapes my own faith, I'm just posting a chat, and would be interested in your thoughts.
But, if you believe that God's plan is infallible, and that you cannot circumvent the plan of an all powerful, all knowing God, then everything, including what we perceive as "bad" or "uncomfortable" would be part of his plan. It's not a comfortable thought, but there it is. Also, the Bible states that God works in "mysterious ways"...that leaves a lot of room for accepting that we don't understand everything, especially exactly what happens after death. Could we hypothesize that even the notion of Hell is a part of that plan? God is said to be just, and from our human understanding, it is hard to understand that someone who doesn't have faith in God goes to hell, when faith itself is given solely by God (via the Holy Spirit). Could the concept of Hell be a tool to further the plan? Is God required to tell the truth, if the truth doesn't support his plan? It's a tough one to wrestle with, since the idea that a human mind could grasp a timeless plan of an immortal, all knowing, all powerful being is highly problematic.
(I get it, you don't believe in any of this, so this is simply a hypothetical based on given variables, I'm not trying to convince you of anything)
Ok! Playing by your rules.
Look at it as you would evolution. ( meaning science of evolution and not christian propaganda of evolution) In evolution the role of a species is determined in as much as it will evolve. But within the species any one particular animal in that species may or may not evolve and even devolve or just do as it chooses. So perhaps you could consider gods omni's as a thing effecting only the species of man and not any one particular member of that species.
Putting this out to Christians in the crowd...atheists, feel free to jump in as well, just know that we know you don't believe in God, so you can skip all the usual trolling, and just apply your logic to this as a hypothetical / philosophical discussion. Just trying to keep things respectful, I think the discussion will be more interesting that way, vs. the usual rinse and repeat us vs. them that always happens in this sub forum.
Been wrestling with this one for years. Christians like to talk about free will, that God always gives a choice, but I struggle with that because of the following assumptions:
1) God is infallible, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent
2) God has a plan or purpose for his creation
3) The Holy Spirit determines who receives the gifts of the spirit, one of which is Faith
4) We are saved through Faith alone.
(Can provide biblical references, but would assume most people jumping into this conversation would be aware of these precepts).
If the above is true, then Choice would allow you to thwart God's plan. If Choice is not possible, then it is impossible for us to save ourselves, as faith is given by the Holy Spirit. So, is the Christian claim of "free will" actually a claim that we are mightier than God? If so, is that what we really believe, and if not, must we conclude that every aspect of our life, which would be knowable before it happens by an omniscient God, and shapeable by an omnipresent, omnipotent God, must conform to an undefeatable Plan? Is everything in life pre-determined by an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing God, and choice is actually an illusion?
Looking for a logical discussion based on the above, or, if you wish to present scriptural references, I'd be interested in how you think they trump the above logic.
No axe to grind here, just something I'm interested in, it in no way shapes my own faith, I'm just posting a chat, and would be interested in your thoughts.
Putting this out to Christians in the crowd...atheists, feel free to jump in as well, just know that we know you don't believe in God, so you can skip all the usual trolling, and just apply your logic to this as a hypothetical / philosophical discussion. Just trying to keep things respectful, I think the discussion will be more interesting that way, vs. the usual rinse and repeat us vs. them that always happens in this sub forum.
Been wrestling with this one for years. Christians like to talk about free will, that God always gives a choice, but I struggle with that because of the following assumptions:
1) God is infallible, omnipresent, omniscient, and omnipotent
2) God has a plan or purpose for his creation
3) The Holy Spirit determines who receives the gifts of the spirit, one of which is Faith
4) We are saved through Faith alone.
(Can provide biblical references, but would assume most people jumping into this conversation would be aware of these precepts).
If the above is true, then Choice would allow you to thwart God's plan. If Choice is not possible, then it is impossible for us to save ourselves, as faith is given by the Holy Spirit. So, is the Christian claim of "free will" actually a claim that we are mightier than God? If so, is that what we really believe, and if not, must we conclude that every aspect of our life, which would be knowable before it happens by an omniscient God, and shapeable by an omnipresent, omnipotent God, must conform to an undefeatable Plan? Is everything in life pre-determined by an all powerful, all knowing, all seeing God, and choice is actually an illusion?
Looking for a logical discussion based on the above, or, if you wish to present scriptural references, I'd be interested in how you think they trump the above logic.
No axe to grind here, just something I'm interested in, it in no way shapes my own faith, I'm just posting a chat, and would be interested in your thoughts.
Free will. Predestination is a misunderstanding of the nature of omniscience, which is unsuprising as omniscience is extremely hard for the mortal mind to comprehend.
In brief, that God knew beforehand which way you'd jump, doesn't mean you didn't choose by your own will.
That doesn't make any sense.The notion of predestination actually undermines Jehovah’s wisdom, for it implies that he cannot control his ability to look into the future....
I've heard God's omniscient powers explained like this...if you had a singing voice of unparalleled beauty, would you then have no choice but to sing all the time? Of course not...the notion is absurd...just as God has the ability to foreknow the future, he does not use it all the time...
I’m from Missouri, but on the subject of evolution, if the human race evolved from some lesser entity, why have there not been recorded events of other species also in flux? (Say crawling out of the slime?) I am not religious at all, except when I curse a blue streak, but I am not entirely sold on evolution.
I’m from Missouri, but on the subject of evolution, if the human race evolved from some lesser entity, why have there not been recorded events of other species also in flux? (Say crawling out of the slime?) I am not religious at all, except when I curse a blue streak, but I am not entirely sold on evolution.
Lessser entity?? Speciest thinking?
As all life evolves then other species have also been in the flux.
Not t sure what you mean by crawling from the slime. Abiogenesis is a different arguement from evolution.
Free will. Predestination is a misunderstanding of the nature of omniscience, which is unsuprising as omniscience is extremely hard for the mortal mind to comprehend.
In brief, that God knew beforehand which way you'd jump, doesn't mean you didn't choose by your own will.
That doesn't make any sense.
"Omniscience" means, by definition, that the deity in question knows all. If your deity is omniscient, then it knows everything there is to know. It is not a party trick that can be turned on or off, because the only way that can happen is if the deity's knowledge is a) limited by time, and/or b) incomplete. If God does not know the future, then God is not omniscient.
And again, omniscience does not mean that sentient beings lack free will. It just means the deity knows how things will turn out. If God knows that Tom Brady is going to fumble in the 3rd quarter before the game starts, that does not mean that God caused Brady to make the decisions that caused Brady to fumble.
Part of my confusion with this whole idea is that "God's plan" for "his creation" that he "loves" involves a lot of suffering to be shouldered by his "beloved" "creation".
What is the point of the suffering, death, evil, etc.? I have heard the arguments saying we must suffer to be "perfected", or whatever term you want to use, but it seems to me that there would be less horrible ways to obtain the same result. Think of all the death and suffering that has occurred throughout history.
Sorry if it seems I'm hijacking your thread. Not my intent at all, you can ignore me if you like.eace
I’m from Missouri, but on the subject of evolution, if the human race evolved from some lesser entity, why have there not been recorded events of other species also in flux? (Say crawling out of the slime?) I am not religious at all, except when I curse a blue streak, but I am not entirely sold on evolution.
Ok! Playing by your rules.
Look at it as you would evolution. ( meaning science of evolution and not christian propaganda of evolution) In evolution the role of a species is determined in as much as it will evolve. But within the species any one particular animal in that species may or may not evolve and even devolve or just do as it chooses. So perhaps you could consider gods omni's as a thing effecting only the species of man and not any one particular member of that species.
This is something that has been argued about for ages. The 'free will' verses 'foreknowledge' is basically broken up into two major camps.. with many subdivisions in each one. One is called 'compatabilism', saying that free will and foreknowledge of God is compatible. The opposite type is called "Incompatibilism". There are at least 3 or 4 different subcategories under each of the two categories.
I personally lean to incompatibilism. The basic overall belief there is 'free will is incompatible with foreknowledge.
On the other hand, it is a purely metaphysical lean. I see no way to test. I see no way to test the opposite of that. That in some respects, makes the discussion along the lines of 'how many angels can dance on the head of a pin'.
Sure, of course...I think for most discussions that seek to understand or define the mind of God are hopeless, which is why I wouldn't base my faith off of this kind of thing. I think it's just interesting.
I've thought long and hard about it, and I can't come to any other conclusion. I think the perception of free will is important, we are a willful species. Biblically speaking we are made in the image of a being that was so willful that they needed to create a universe in which to drive a giant master plan...hehe... But I don't see how free will is compatible with the notion that God has a plan that he is going to make happen, and has all the omni's attached to make it happen. I'm open to better logic, which is why I opened the thread, but I haven't been able to come up with it on my own.
I can know exactly what someone is going to do, say or decide, without in any way impeding in their free choice. Predictability does not deprive the subject of free will.
I find the "God has a plan" to be little more than a crude rationalization to compensate for unpleasant events. That said, I don't think that omniscience and having a plan is incompatible with free will in all circumstances. E.g. God can interfere with someone's life, even deliberately forcing someone to make a specific choice while thinking it was an independent choice, without permanently depriving them of free will in all subsequent decisions. Even a temporary removal of free will in a given situation does not mean that free will is permanently removed.
I will say that IMO, these theological claims do largely render human life rather pointless, as it makes us all basically rats in a cage for a deity's amusement; and the deity that claims to have a plan knows how it will turn out eons before humans came into existence. (It is also plausible that the deity actually doesn't give a **** about humanity, and its plan is to make pretty patterns out of galactic superclusters. Anyway....) This is just a small component of the larger (and IMO more serious) issue of theodicy.
On a side note, there are all sorts of problems with the concept of free will, mostly coming from a neurological and psychological perspective. For example, dopamine agonists (which are used in some cases to treat Parkinson's) can send the brain's reward system into a tailspin, and cause some patients to exhibit compulsive behaviors -- compulsive gambling, hypersexuality, overeating, compulsive shopping and so on. The patients don't subjectively experience a change, so it took time and research to determine that the drugs had an impact.
What does free will mean, if taking a drug can deprive you of it, without you even realizing it?
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