China’s builders vs America’s lawyers

[anatta]

Breakneck divide: China's builders vs America's lawyers - Asia Times

Dan Wang has written a book that brings a new perspective to understanding the differences in style of government between China and the US and the

asiatimes.com

The starkest contrast between the two countries is the competition that will define the twenty-first century: an American elite, made up of mostly lawyers, excelling at obstruction, versus a Chinese technocratic class, made up of mostly engineers, that excels at construction.

That’s the big idea behind this book. It’s time for a new lens to understand the two superpowers: China is an engineering state, building big at breakneck speed, in contrast to the United States’ lawyerly society, blocking everything it can, good and bad.

On his website, the author explains that his book is “driven by a few simple ideas”:

• That Americans and Chinese are fundamentally alike: restless, eager for shortcuts, ultimately driving most of the world’s big changes.
• That their rivalry should not be reasoned through with worn-out terms from the past century like socialist, democratic or neoliberal.
• And that both countries are tangles of imperfection, regularly delivering – in the name of competition – self-beatings that go beyond the wildest dreams of the other

“Engineers,” writes Wang, “have quite literally ruled modern China.… Xi Jinping studied chemical engineering at Tsinghua, China’s top science university.” And: “What do engineers like to do? Build.” A road network twice as long as that of the US, a high-speed rail network 20 times longer than Japan’s, and nearly as much solar and wind power as the rest of the world combined. The problem is, they can’t stop, applying their methods to social problems even when that it not appropriate.

After an inspiring description of the rise of venture capital and high-tech manufacturing in Shenzhen, Wang turns his attention to the brutal enforcement of the one-child policy and the severe Covid lockdown that drove people to desperation.

Capitalist America intrudes upon the free market with a dense program of regulation and taxation.… Socialist China detains union leaders, levies light taxes, and provides a threadbare social safety net. The greatest trick that the Communist Party ever pulled off is masquerading as leftist. While Xi Jinping and the rest of the Politburo mouth Marxist pieties, the state is enacting a right-wing agenda that Western conservatives would salivate over.

In the realm of technology, Wang writes, Americans celebrate invention, whereas for the Chinese, “innovation emerges from the factory floor.”.....

 

[Stealers Wheel]

China has some significant advantages over the US.

First, they don't give a shit about the environmental impacts of their progress. The have no EPA with requirements that they keep the air, water, and soil clean.

The Chinese don't give a shit about worker safety. They have no use for OSHA. As far as they are concerned, workers are literally a dime a dozen. Industrial accidents should not be a hinderance. Clear out the bodies and get back to work!

Labor unions in China? Don't even think about it! Workers' rights? Don't make me laugh.

I could go on, but I've made my point.

Now, think about this: Which political party hates the EPA, OSHA, and labor unions? In other words, which political party wants us to become more like China?

 

[Gozaburo]

Labor unions in China? Don't even think about it! Workers' rights? Don't make me laugh.

This is actually a dated belief. Since Deng's reforms, China actually has pretty solid worker's rights and reliable unions. Some argue that they even have better worker's rights than the United States (which isn't saying much, frankly), but I don't know if I'd go that far.

 

[Gozaburo]

The starkest contrast between the two countries is the competition that will define the twenty-first century: an American elite, made up of mostly lawyers, excelling at obstruction, versus a Chinese technocratic class, made up of mostly engineers, that excels at construction.

It's kind of silly to compare China and America in this way, in my opinion. America is the eminent global empire, China is an upstart with questionable potential and no experience governing global assets. China has to not only outcompete America in economic terms (which isn't likely to happen any time soon) but it also has to propose an alternative to global liberal capitalism, which is even less likely to happen, especially since China in many ways is already a part of that system via the Chimerican economic relationship.

Capitalist America intrudes upon the free market with a dense program of regulation and taxation.… Socialist China detains union leaders, levies light taxes, and provides a threadbare social safety net. The greatest trick that the Communist Party ever pulled off is masquerading as leftist. While Xi Jinping and the rest of the Politburo mouth Marxist pieties, the state is enacting a right-wing agenda that Western conservatives would salivate over.

Generally true. China isn't communist really whatsoever since Deng's reforms. These days, it would be more accurate to say they're almost like a National Socialist Germany with Confucian and Chinese legalistic characteristics.

 

[Allan]

This is actually a dated belief. Since Deng's reforms, China actually has pretty solid worker's rights and reliable unions. Some argue that they even have better worker's rights than the United States (which isn't saying much, frankly), but I don't know if I'd go that far.

China does have unions but they're not independent from the government. They're pretty ineffective.

As for safety they have strong legislation but that doesn't filter down to the front line much. It's still better than countries like India but no where near western standards.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

This is actually a dated belief. Since Deng's reforms, China actually has pretty solid worker's rights and reliable unions. Some argue that they even have better worker's rights than the United States (which isn't saying much, frankly), but I don't know if I'd go that far.

Any workers rights or union power comes as a gift from the Chinese government. If those 'rights' ever prove to be a hinderance to the progress, they can and will be stripped away in a heartbeat.

You know what else China doesn't have? "Fake News," in other words there is no free press, no criticizing the government, no investigating corruption or appealing government decisions.

 

[Allan]

Breakneck divide: China's builders vs America's lawyers - Asia Times

Dan Wang has written a book that brings a new perspective to understanding the differences in style of government between China and the US and the

asiatimes.com

The starkest contrast between the two countries is the competition that will define the twenty-first century: an American elite, made up of mostly lawyers, excelling at obstruction, versus a Chinese technocratic class, made up of mostly engineers, that excels at construction.

That’s the big idea behind this book. It’s time for a new lens to understand the two superpowers: China is an engineering state, building big at breakneck speed, in contrast to the United States’ lawyerly society, blocking everything it can, good and bad.

On his website, the author explains that his book is “driven by a few simple ideas”:

• That Americans and Chinese are fundamentally alike: restless, eager for shortcuts, ultimately driving most of the world’s big changes.
• That their rivalry should not be reasoned through with worn-out terms from the past century like socialist, democratic or neoliberal.
• And that both countries are tangles of imperfection, regularly delivering – in the name of competition – self-beatings that go beyond the wildest dreams of the other

“Engineers,” writes Wang, “have quite literally ruled modern China.… Xi Jinping studied chemical engineering at Tsinghua, China’s top science university.” And: “What do engineers like to do? Build.” A road network twice as long as that of the US, a high-speed rail network 20 times longer than Japan’s, and nearly as much solar and wind power as the rest of the world combined. The problem is, they can’t stop, applying their methods to social problems even when that it not appropriate.

After an inspiring description of the rise of venture capital and high-tech manufacturing in Shenzhen, Wang turns his attention to the brutal enforcement of the one-child policy and the severe Covid lockdown that drove people to desperation.

Capitalist America intrudes upon the free market with a dense program of regulation and taxation.… Socialist China detains union leaders, levies light taxes, and provides a threadbare social safety net. The greatest trick that the Communist Party ever pulled off is masquerading as leftist. While Xi Jinping and the rest of the Politburo mouth Marxist pieties, the state is enacting a right-wing agenda that Western conservatives would salivate over.

In the realm of technology, Wang writes, Americans celebrate invention, whereas for the Chinese, “innovation emerges from the factory floor.”.....

I wouldn't disagree with anything in this analysis although I'll leave it to Americans to evaluate their own systems.

China's development is certainly breakneck. They have had to start considering environmental problems due to large demonstrations from citizens disgusted by the poor quality air and water.

 

[Gozaburo]

Any workers rights or union power comes as a gift from the Chinese government. If those 'rights' ever prove to be a hinderance to the progress, they can and will be stripped away in a heartbeat.

I mean all rights anywhere are a gift from the government. Where do you think rights come from?

You know what else China doesn't have? "Fake News," in other words there is no free press, no criticizing the government, no investigating corruption or appealing government decisions.

I'm not sure how this is relevant.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

I mean all rights anywhere are a gift from the government. Where do you think rights come from?



I'm not sure how this is relevant.

So law is of no consequence anywhere? Do you believe that one's right to remain silent and to have legal counsel in the US is a simply a gift that can be stripped away on a whim? And you think that is just like in China?

And you say a free press is irrelevant in comparing the US vs China. Interesting take.

 

[Gozaburo]

So law is of no consequence anywhere? Do you believe that one's right to remain silent and to have legal counsel in the US is a simply a gift that can be stripped away on a whim?

You don't have to remain silent, but yes - all rights exist under the shadow of the state. How else do you think they function ?

And you say a free press is irrelevant in comparing the US vs China. Interesting take.

We were discussing the robustness of labor laws.

 

[Stealers Wheel]

You don't have to remain silent, but yes - all rights exist under the shadow of the state. How else do you think they function ?



We were discussing the robustness of labor laws.

Now you're just yanking chains. You don't actually believe that law in the US can be ignored anytime the government wants to, right? If you do believe that, then you also believe that the entire US judicial system is a facade.

We were discussing contrasts between progress means in the US vs China.

 

[Gozaburo]

Now you're just yanking chains. You don't actually believe that law in the US can be ignored anytime the government wants to, right? If you do believe that, then you also believe that the entire US judicial system is a facade.

Who do you think enforces the law in this country? Where do you think your rights come from?

 

[phoenix2020]

Breakneck divide: China's builders vs America's lawyers - Asia Times

Dan Wang has written a book that brings a new perspective to understanding the differences in style of government between China and the US and the

asiatimes.com

The starkest contrast between the two countries is the competition that will define the twenty-first century: an American elite, made up of mostly lawyers, excelling at obstruction, versus a Chinese technocratic class, made up of mostly engineers, that excels at construction.

That’s the big idea behind this book. It’s time for a new lens to understand the two superpowers: China is an engineering state, building big at breakneck speed, in contrast to the United States’ lawyerly society, blocking everything it can, good and bad.

On his website, the author explains that his book is “driven by a few simple ideas”:

• That Americans and Chinese are fundamentally alike: restless, eager for shortcuts, ultimately driving most of the world’s big changes.
• That their rivalry should not be reasoned through with worn-out terms from the past century like socialist, democratic or neoliberal.
• And that both countries are tangles of imperfection, regularly delivering – in the name of competition – self-beatings that go beyond the wildest dreams of the other

“Engineers,” writes Wang, “have quite literally ruled modern China.… Xi Jinping studied chemical engineering at Tsinghua, China’s top science university.” And: “What do engineers like to do? Build.” A road network twice as long as that of the US, a high-speed rail network 20 times longer than Japan’s, and nearly as much solar and wind power as the rest of the world combined. The problem is, they can’t stop, applying their methods to social problems even when that it not appropriate.

After an inspiring description of the rise of venture capital and high-tech manufacturing in Shenzhen, Wang turns his attention to the brutal enforcement of the one-child policy and the severe Covid lockdown that drove people to desperation.

Capitalist America intrudes upon the free market with a dense program of regulation and taxation.… Socialist China detains union leaders, levies light taxes, and provides a threadbare social safety net. The greatest trick that the Communist Party ever pulled off is masquerading as leftist. While Xi Jinping and the rest of the Politburo mouth Marxist pieties, the state is enacting a right-wing agenda that Western conservatives would salivate over.

In the realm of technology, Wang writes, Americans celebrate invention, whereas for the Chinese, “innovation emerges from the factory floor.”.....

This is what separates modern China from other centrally planned states like the USSR. China’s government is very much a meritocracy and as such can better leverage government to react quickly. That’s why when COVID hit they could stand up hospitals in weeks while we were suing each other over masks. Democracy has been effective only because its competition was not competent. China presents a much stiffer test: a highly competent authoritarian state.