Bush Authorized NSA To Spy Inside US

TimmyBoy · Dec 16, 2005

Here is why you don't ever trust the government or politicans and why you want to limit the scope and size of government. Allow the government to become to large and they will try to destroy freedom:

Reports: Bush Authorized NSA to Spy in U.S. 9 minutes ago

NEW YORK - The National Security Agency has eavesdropped, without warrants, on as many 500 people inside the United States at any given time since 2002, The New York Times reported Friday.

That year, following the Sept. 11 attacks, President Bush authorized the NSA to monitor the international phone calls and international e-mails of hundreds — perhaps thousands — of people inside the United States, the Times reported.

Before the program began, the NSA typically limited its domestic surveillance to foreign embassies and missions and obtained court orders for such investigations. Overseas, 5,000 to 7,000 people suspected of terrorist ties are monitored at one time.

The Times said reporters interviewed nearly a dozen current and former administration officials about the program and granted them anonymity because of the classified nature of the program.

Government officials credited the new program with uncovering several terrorist plots, including one by Iyman Faris, an Ohio trucker who pleaded guilty in 2003 to supporting al-Qaida by planning to destroy the Brooklyn Bridge, the report said.

But some NSA officials were so concerned about the legality of the program that they refused to participate, the Times said. Questions about the legality of the program led the administration to temporarily suspend it last year and impose new restrictions.

Secrecy is a means of preventing accountability, honesty and of allowing tyranny to develop:

Caroline Fredrickson, director of the Washington legislative office of the American Civil Liberties Union, said the group's initial reaction to the NSA disclosure was "shock that the administration has gone so far in violating American civil liberties to the extent where it seems to be a violation of federal law."

Asked about the administration's contention that the eavesdropping has disrupted terrorist attacks, Fredrickson said the ACLU couldn't comment until it sees some evidence. "They've veiled these powers in secrecy so there's no way for Congress or any independent organizations to exercise any oversight."

TimmyBoy · Dec 16, 2005

Re: Bush Authorized NSA To Spy Inside US On Citizens

Mods, I would like to correct the title of this article to where it reads "Bush Authorized NSA To Spy Inside US"

Stinger · Dec 16, 2005

Re: Bush Authorized NSA To Spy Inside US On Citizens

TimmyBoy said:
Here is why you don't ever trust the government or politicans and why you want to limit the scope and size of government. Allow the government to become to large and they will try to destroy freedom:

Secrecy is a means of preventing accountability, honesty and of allowing tyranny to develop:

And:

The Bush administration had briefed congressional leaders about the program and notified the judge in charge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the secret Washington court that handles national security issues.

Aides to National Intelligence Director John Negroponte and West Virginia Sen. Jay Rockefeller, the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, declined to comment Thursday night.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/15/231957.shtml

Seems the congress and the courts were fully aware. And in fact a terrorist act was prevented due to the survellience. So how do we monitor our enemies without violating the rights of citizens here? These were international calls some coming into the USA from outside.

YNKYH8R · Dec 16, 2005

I'm just waiting for the supporters to start whining about 'National Security'. And then they'll come along with a list of all the DEmocrats that back this up and blah blah blah. We've already heard Condi's spin who's next.

Step up to da mic........

YNKYH8R · Dec 16, 2005

Re: Bush Authorized NSA To Spy Inside US On Citizens

Stinger said:
Seems the congress and the courts were fully aware. And in fact a terrorist act was prevented due to the survellience. So how do we monitor our enemies without violating the rights of citizens here? These were international calls some coming into the USA from outside.

The ends do not justify the means. In any other court situation a case would be thrown out because of improperly filed warrants.

It is not the job of the American public to find the solutions in how to go about this legally. There is a system in place and it should be used. The Patriot act and other bills that 'allow' this leway are exactly the type of thing destroying this country. Worse than the terrorists.

This a bi-partisin issue. IMO it dosen't matter whether Dem or GOP was involved down the line making this a reality. Although seeing that this is something (so far) that seems to come out of the Oval...well let's just say I'm not surprised. :ninja:

TimmyBoy · Dec 16, 2005

I am personally tired of some of the crooks in Washington trying to destroy freedom in any which way they can in the name of protecting freedom.

hipsterdufus · Dec 16, 2005

TimmyBoy said:
Here is why you don't ever trust the government or politicans and why you want to limit the scope and size of government. Allow the government to become to large and they will try to destroy freedom:

Secrecy is a means of preventing accountability, honesty and of allowing tyranny to develop:

You beat me to the punch posting this thread. Combine that with the recent FBI documents that show the government considers peace protests a threat to national security and its pretty clear that -

Pentagon Caught Spying on U.S. Anti-War and Anti-Nuclear Activists

Newly leaked Pentagon documents have confirmed the military has been monitoring and collecting intelligence on anti-war groups across the country. Peace protests are being described as threats and the military is collecting data on who is attending demonstrations. We speak with William Arkin, the former Army intelligence officer, who obtained the secret Pentagon documents. [includes rush transcript]

Earlier this week NBC News exposed the existence of a secret Pentagon database to track intelligence gathered inside the United States. The database including information on dozens of anti-war protests and rallies particularly actions targeting military recruiting.

The list included: counter-military recruiting meetings held at a Quaker Meeting House in Lake Forth, Florida. Anti-nuclear protests staged in Nebraska on the 50th anniversary of the U.S. atomic bombing of Nagasaki. An anti-war protest organized by military families outside Fort Bragg in North Carolina. And a rally in San Diego to support war resister Pablo Parades. The Pentagon database described all of these events as threats.

http://www.pacifica.org/programs/dn/051215.html

TimmyBoy · Dec 16, 2005

hipsterdufus said:
You beat me to the punch posting this thread. Combine that with the recent FBI documents that show the government considers peace protests a threat to national security and its pretty clear that -

http://www.pacifica.org/programs/dn/051215.html

George Orwell was a genius as well is Noam Chomsky. However, I do not share their socialist convictions. I believe in free market enterprise and good ole fashion American capitalism.

steen · Dec 16, 2005

It is Gestapo all over again. Next, we will ask the kids to spy on their parents and report to the State if the parents are critical of the Government.

TimmyBoy · Dec 16, 2005

steen said:
It is Gestapo all over again. Next, we will ask the kids to spy on their parents and report to the State if the parents are critical of the Government.

That's exactly what happenned in Stalinist Russia and kinda what happenned in Hitler's Germany. This sort of thing that happenned in these two countries were not Russian or German freak shows. They are the sort of things that can happen anywhere, including, the United States. It is important to study, learn and understand what happenned in other countries, because by doing so, we learn alot about ourselves. We learn alot about ourselves by studying how Hitler's Germany or Stalin's Soviet Union came into existance.

scottyz · Dec 16, 2005

BAH.. we all know those quakers were planning terror attacks.

hipsterdufus · Dec 16, 2005

TimmyBoy said:
George Orwell was a genius as well is Noam Chomsky. However, I do not share their socialist convictions. I believe in free market enterprise and good ole fashion American capitalism.

I'm a firm believer in Capitalism as well - but what we're lacking now is government oversight and ridiculous tax breaks and subsidies for corporations. That, combined with ridiculous offshore tax evasion schemes combine to form representation without taxation for the major corporations in America that PAY NO TAXES.

libertarian_knight · Dec 16, 2005

steen said:
It is Gestapo all over again. Next, we will ask the kids to spy on their parents and report to the State if the parents are critical of the Government.

Big Surprise, I mean D.A.R.E already asks kids to spy on thier parents, family and friends who defy the state.

See "The Nature of Man and His Government."

Hoot · Dec 16, 2005

I just watched a short debate about this topic on MSNBC.

I gotta tell ya, I'm completely disgusted by the underhanded attack on our liberties and freedoms by this imposter in the White House. What next?

Does anyone care that this man is shredding our constitution?

God help us until January 20th, 2009.

tryreading · Dec 16, 2005

steen said:
It is Gestapo all over again. Next, we will ask the kids to spy on their parents and report to the State if the parents are critical of the Government.

This administration has made too many very poor decisions. I can't find anything redeeming in it anymore. Buying the media, irresponsibly attacking Iraq, torturing, endangering our civil rights... Can we take three more years of this mess?

The Orange/Osceola (here in Florida) county attorney general had an idea last year - he wanted to utilize vendors and service people to check out people's homes while in them doing service on plumbing, A/C, etc. He thought terrorists could be discovered if these folks looked for signs like several men living together (especially of Arabic appearance). He wanted to have us spy on each other. He actually suggested this plan. There was such an uproar that he realized what an idiot he had been to seriously consider this and he shut his ignorant, UnAmerican mouth.

People who are for the 'Patriot' act should understand it is clowns like this public servant who formulate these ideas. They can not be trusted.

I would like to see Congress investigate the President's NSA tactic. I would also like any politician who approved listening to my private phone conversations imprisoned.

Hoot · Dec 16, 2005

What kills me about all this is... Bush had a chance to gain a little more traction and approval...what with the elections in Iraq..etc, but now we have the Patriot Act going down to defeat, and all this stuff about Bush authorizing spying on Americans, and his flip-flop on the torture amendment,

The guy is certainly having a run of bad luck...most of it brought on by himself. Here's hoping 2006 is a better year for all Americans.

Pacridge · Dec 16, 2005

Hoot said:
What kills me about all this is... Bush had a chance to gain a little more traction and approval...what with the elections in Iraq..etc, but now we have the Patriot Act going down to defeat, and all this stuff about Bush authorizing spying on Americans, and his flip-flop on the torture amendment,

The guy is certainly having a run of bad luck...most of it brought on by himself. Here's hoping 2006 is a better year for all Americans.

I don't know. I see Bush picking up in the approval area. The elections in Iraq are a pretty big thing. Plus I think his owning up to the faulty Intel. thing has also helped him in many circles. I certainly respect that much more then continuing the lies of "there were weapons, we found weapons etc..."

oldreliable67 · Dec 16, 2005

Oh, no! Does that mean...surely not...oh crap...if mommie is a commie then ya gotta turn'er in?

Ah, sorry. Just couldn't resist. As today wore on and we found out a few more details about this, I personally became much less chagrined. I think I'll give it another day or so and see a few more details - before turning mommie in.

scottyz · Dec 16, 2005

Pacridge said:
I don't know. I see Bush picking up in the approval area. The elections in Iraq are a pretty big thing. Plus I think his owning up to the faulty Intel. thing has also helped him in many circles. I certainly respect that much more then continuing the lies of "there were weapons, we found weapons etc..."

Did he own up to just the WMD intel being faulty or all of it being faulty?

Stinger · Dec 16, 2005

Re: Bush Authorized NSA To Spy Inside US On Citizens

YNKYH8R said:
The ends do not justify the means. In any other court situation a case would be thrown out because of improperly filed warrants.

From what I've read and from the experts I listened to tonight there is nothing unusal at all here. The NSA has always intercepted such calls and has a perfect legal authority to screen them. The congressional leaders knew of it now and in the previous adminsitrations.

Sounds to me like the NYT once again stretching to find anything to counter the good news out of Iraq.

debate_junkie · Dec 16, 2005

tryreading said:
This administration has made too many very poor decisions. I can't find anything redeeming in it anymore. Buying the media, irresponsibly attacking Iraq, torturing, endangering our civil rights... Can we take three more years of this mess?

The Orange/Osceola (here in Florida) county attorney general had an idea last year - he wanted to utilize vendors and service people to check out people's homes while in them doing service on plumbing, A/C, etc. He thought terrorists could be discovered if these folks looked for signs like several men living together (especially of Arabic appearance). He wanted to have us spy on each other. He actually suggested this plan. There was such an uproar that he realized what an idiot he had been to seriously consider this and he shut his ignorant, UnAmerican mouth.

People who are for the 'Patriot' act should understand it is clowns like this public servant who formulate these ideas. They can not be trusted.

I would like to see Congress investigate the President's NSA tactic. I would also like any politician who approved listening to my private phone conversations imprisoned.

Arlen Spector has labeled this to be "unacceptable", and is calling for an investigation of these allegations in the New Year. I will reserve all judgement for then, once ALL of the facts are laid out.

Stinger, honestly, why is everything about counteracting the good news of Iraq? LMAO Hell, the Iraqi people, with their voting numbers made all registered voters in the US look like clowns. They risked life and limb to get their parliament in place, and some of us are more worried about who's making who look bad. Geesh, have you a superiority complex, or what?

Pacridge · Dec 16, 2005

scottyz said:
Did he own up to just the WMD intel being faulty or all of it being faulty?

I think he took responsibility for the WMD intel being wrong and that it was his decision to act on the faulty intel. But I could be wrong???

tryreading · Dec 17, 2005

Re: Bush Authorized NSA To Spy Inside US On Citizens

Stinger said:
And:

The Bush administration had briefed congressional leaders about the program and notified the judge in charge of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court, the secret Washington court that handles national security issues.

Aides to National Intelligence Director John Negroponte and West Virginia Sen. Jay Rockefeller, the top Democrat on the Senate Intelligence Committee, declined to comment Thursday night.
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/15/231957.shtml

Seems the congress and the courts were fully aware. And in fact a terrorist act was prevented due to the survellience. So how do we monitor our enemies without violating the rights of citizens here? These were international calls some coming into the USA from outside.

What was prevented? The President said 'possible' terrorist acts were prevented:

The president contended the program has helped "detect and prevent possible terrorist attacks in the U.S. and abroad," but did not provide specific examples.

scottyz · Dec 17, 2005

Re: Bush Authorized NSA To Spy Inside US On Citizens

tryreading said:
What was prevented? The President said 'possible' terrorist acts were prevented:

The president contended the program has helped "detect and prevent possible terrorist attacks in the U.S. and abroad," but did not provide specific examples.

If he tells us, the terrorists win. :shock:

tecoyah · Dec 17, 2005

After hearing the speech.....I thought about the implications for about five minutes, and came to a conclusion I do not like at all:

I Now Fully Support Impeachment Proceedings Against My President

I never thought I would say that and its a sad day

Bush Authorized NSA To Spy Inside US

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