born different

[jennyb]

how many of you who think a person chooses to be gay have looked at the link advertised here?

the link is www.borndifferent.org

look and see.. it is excellent . factual and interesting.

go...look..and then answer the question....

born gay? or choice of life style..

 

[Sir_Alec]

I don't need to look at this site because I never chose to be rideculed by people I know. I'm getting sick of people claiming people choose to be gay. That never crossed my mind once in my life, I just did what my urges and emotions told me. It seems very natural to me.

 

[jennyb]

alec, i agree...i dont understand that people dont realize its biological, not a choice....i didnt choose to be straight...know what i mean......:mrgreen:

 

[JustineCredible]

alec, i agree...i dont understand that people dont realize its biological, not a choice....i didnt choose to be straight...know what i mean......:mrgreen:

I totally know what you mean.

I certainly didn't make any choice except to be honest and to stop living an uncomfortable at best, lie.
I always knew who and what I was. I was shamed into attempting to live against my nature. I was raised in an area intolerant of those of us who are different.
I knew from past experience that being left-handed as "different." I knew having curly hair made me "different."
I knew having an immigrant father was "different."
I knew having a Dad who worked with mixed races was "different."

I did everything I knew how to not be any MORE different than I already was. I attempted to play "straight." I dated a few guys, even married one.

But my true nature won out.
It had to.
I was raising a son and I had to learn to live honestly and unapologetically if I was ever going to be a good mother.

I look back at my only choice, and am SO GLAD I made the right decission. I see the person my son has grown up to become and who he will continue to become and know, it was all worth it!

 

[jennyb]

thanx justin---for being just that....honest...
i'm sorry my site reference was spelled wrong , but those who are interested will find it:2wave:

 

[JustineCredible]

It's Justine, you know, with an "e." But that's ok, no matter what name I go by it seems everyone forgets the "e."

Even in my "real" name.



Oh well...lol

 

[jennyb]

oh i know...i left out the e on purpose i could have just as easily have written just

sorry:2wave:

 

[Jerry]

how many of you who think a person chooses to be gay have looked at the link advertised here?

the link is www.borndifferent.org

look and see.. it is excellent . factual and interesting.

go...look..and then answer the question....

born gay? or choice of life style..

"Of course, I'm that most awful of perverts. I chose, I gleefully admit that I was heterosexual until I met the right man and chose to indulge in my homoerotic potential. Take that!"
—Elf Sternberg, posting on the talk.politics.misc newsgroup, April 18, 1993

I don't believe that people who are born with one anatomical gender and the opposite physiological gender (Transsexuality) choose it.

I don't believe that people who are genuinely physiologically 'wired' to be attracted to the same anatomical gender as there own, yet who still identify themselves as their anatomical gender, choose it.

My sister did choose it, however, as a result of abuse. Long story short she eventually got help for her issues and is now heterosexual again. I know a friend of the family in a similar situation aswell.

I had homosexual feelings until I decided to cast them out when I was about 11 or 12. I later came to understand that my feelings were the result of not bonding with a proper male role model.

Then there are Lesbian Feminists, a number of whom choose homosexuality out of some belief in queer theory.

IMO you can't simply lump everyone into one group.
To say that homosexuality is a choice is to say that born Transsexuality was chosen by the fetus. Utterly ridiculous.

To say that homosexuality is not a choice is to say that there is never sexual confusion during puberty, as a result of not bonding with a proper male role model or as a defensive response to abuse.

The nature of Gender Identity Disorder just isn't that simple.

 

[jennyb]

jer, i think we went through this one before...
granted..there are some who may choose, but those are not the norm...
transexuals are a completely different..and i have not researched this...it almost seems like a birth defect ,and we do know these happen, and i do believe it is possibble for that to be a birth defect..... a man with a womans brain and visa versa

how can you know as a mere human, what God in his infinite wisdom ,and why ..He has done the things He has.

thats it jer there may be some things that as men and women we will never understand and this..sexuality may just be one....

however just because someone is different does not make them bad. or sinful....
homosexuals are after all here,, and i dont believe God puts anything on earth by mistake. so cant you just look at it as Gods work???? we are , all of us Gods children...and who are you to diss Gods work????:mrgreen:

 

[JustineCredible]

"Of course, I'm that most awful of perverts. I chose, I gleefully admit that I was heterosexual until I met the right man and chose to indulge in my homoerotic potential. Take that!"
—Elf Sternberg, posting on the talk.politics.misc newsgroup, April 18, 1993

I don't believe that people who are born with one anatomical gender and the opposite physiological gender (Transsexuality) choose it.

Now that's just sad, what a dispassionate and cruelly cold thing to say.

I believe those who suffer from Gender Disphoria but who actually take steps to correct what they truly feel was an error of biology are extremely courageous in the face of so much opposition, just like you.

I don't believe that people who are genuinely physiologically 'wired' to be attracted to the same anatomical gender as there own, yet who still identify themselves as their anatomical gender, choose it.

This suggests that you do in fact believe that there are those of us who are "wired" to be physically attracted to those of the same gender. Your meaning belays your words.

My sister did choose it, however, as a result of abuse. Long story short she eventually got help for her issues and is now heterosexual again. I know a friend of the family in a similar situation aswell.

I'm not denying there are those who resort to sexuality denial as a form of self-preservation. But how can you say ALL gays and lesbians fit into this catagory? That amounts to the same as saying there are no naturally left-handed people.

I had homosexual feelings until I decided to cast them out when I was about 11 or 12. I later came to understand that my feelings were the result of not bonding with a proper male role model.

So my son, who has been raised by two lesbians is gay?
Um, you know nothing of which you speak. The likelihood that two gays/lesbians raising any child will result in that child becomming gay/lesbian as an adult is rather slim. It's as rare as gays/lesbians coming from two opposite gender parents.
I can guaruntee that nearly 95% of all adult gays/lesbians were raised by straight parents. I can also guaruntee that most children raised in single parent homes of gay or straight single parents are also straight.

Your assumptions sound only like a weak attempt to justify your lack of acceptance of those of us who actually are gay/lesbian and who had no other natural choice than to be who we are.

Then there are Lesbian Feminists, a number of whom choose homosexuality out of some belief in queer theory.

Give me a break. First off the title is a misnomber at best.
Most lesbians couldn't care less about feminism and vice versa, most feminists aren't lesbians. I know, my mother is one! She's straight, beautiful, bold and adoring of the man in her life. My father is strong, compassionate, a born leader. I respect and adore both my parents, regardless of their personal short comings.

IMO you can't simply lump everyone into one group.
To say that homosexuality is a choice is to say that born Transsexuality was chosen by the fetus. Utterly ridiculous.

Make up your mind. First you deny born homosexuals in one breath, but in the next you support it?
I don't think you know yourself let alone anyone else.

To say that homosexuality is not a choice is to say that there is never sexual confusion during puberty, as a result of not bonding with a proper male role model or as a defensive response to abuse.

I don't believe anyone has said that. All I have attempted to support was my own knowledge of my own sexuality. I'm sure there are those who "try-on" homosexuality like trying on the newest fashion. There are those who use it as a defence mechanism against childhood abuse and who need treatment. But they are such a miniscule percentage of the greater GLBT community that I don't feel the need to defend their choices. I don't include them in the larger GLBT Community mainly because those types are "just visiting."

The nature of Gender Identity Disorder just isn't that simple.

I have no gender identity disorder. I'm a female of my species and enjoy being such. I have reveled in it from day one!
I like my body, it's parts and the part they play in who I am.
Because I'm also attracted to other females has nothing to do with MY gender at all.

 

[Jerry]

JustineCredible, I think that you grossly misinterpreted the majority of what I said, as you are responding to things that I didn't say. Lets muggle through this, shall we?

I don't believe that people who are born with one anatomical gender and the opposite physiological gender (Transsexuality) choose it.

Now that's just sad, what a dispassionate and cruelly cold thing to say.

I'm sorry that you feel that saying that some people are born that way is sad, dispassionate and cruel, but it's the truth. Some people are born gay. That's just the way of it.

I believe those who suffer from Gender Diaspora but who actually take steps to correct what they truly feel was an error of biology are extremely courageous in the face of so much opposition, just like you.

You know, I suspect that you are trying to villainies me, however I have no idea what your point is in this part. I have not vulcanized or degraded those with GID in any way. Or were you under the impression that I have GID?

I don't believe that people who are genuinely physiologically 'wired' to be attracted to the same anatomical gender as there own, yet who still identify themselves as their anatomical gender, choose it.

This suggests that you do in fact believe that there are those of us who are "wired" to be physically attracted to those of the same gender. Your meaning belays your words.

Wait....didn't I just say that that was my position? Yes, I did just say exactly that.

My sister did choose it, however, as a result of abuse. Long story short she eventually got help for her issues and is now heterosexual again. I know a friend of the family in a similar situation as well.

I'm not denying there are those who resort to sexuality denial as a form of self-preservation. But how can you say ALL gays and lesbians fit into this category? That amounts to the same as saying there are no naturally left-handed people.

I never said any such thing.

I had homosexual feelings until I decided to cast them out when I was about 11 or 12. I later came to understand that my feelings were the result of not bonding with a proper male role model.

So my son, who has been raised by two lesbians is gay?

I never suggested that he was. Nor did I say, as you imply, that I was raised by gay parents.

Um, you know nothing of which you speak.

I spoke only of myself, and I know myself pretty well.

The likelihood that two gays/lesbians raising any child will result in that child becoming gay/lesbian as an adult is rather slim. It's as rare as gays/lesbians coming from two opposite gender parents.

I didn't say anything about gay couples raising children. I didn't say anything about said children becoming gay. That's not even something I believe is true, BTW.

Your assumptions sound only like a weak attempt to justify your lack of acceptance of those of us who actually are gay/lesbian and who had no other natural choice than to be who we are.

I don't hold the assumptions which your are attempting to ascribe to me, though. You are responding to classical anti-GM arguments. I have made no such argument.

Then there are Lesbian Feminists, a number of whom choose homosexuality out of some belief in queer theory.

Give me a break. First off the title is a misnomer at best.
Most lesbians couldn't care less about feminism and vice versa, most feminists aren't lesbians. I know, my mother is one! She's straight, beautiful, bold and adoring of the man in her life. My father is strong, compassionate, a born leader. I respect and adore both my parents, regardless of their personal short comings.

*Ahem*
Please note that "Lesbian Feminist" is capitalized, denoting a name.
I was not referring to lesbians’ per-se. I was not referring to feminists’ per-se. I was not referring to lesbians who were simply feminists, nor feminists who were simply lesbians.

Lesbian Feminists

IMO you can't simply lump everyone into one group.
To say that homosexuality is a choice is to say that born Transsexuality was chosen by the fetus. Utterly ridiculous.

Make up your mind. First you deny born homosexuals in one breath, but in the next you support it?
I don't think you know yourself let alone anyone else.

I did not deny the existence of born homosexuals, though.

To say that homosexuality is not a choice is to say that there is never sexual confusion during puberty, as a result of not bonding with a proper male role model or as a defensive response to abuse.

I don't believe anyone has said that.

I didn't say that anyone did say that, however. And in that post I wasn't referring to you or anything you said either.

I was explaining my view, which it sounds like you agree with, if only you would read the words that I write, instead of the words that you have heard so many times before, from others.

The nature of Gender Identity Disorder just isn't that simple.

I have no gender identity disorder. I'm a female of my species and enjoy being such. I have reveled in it from day one!
I like my body, it's parts and the part they play in who I am.
Because I'm also attracted to other females has nothing to do with MY gender at all.

Was I referring to you? No.
However I can see where you would interpret an implication. After we clear up the above gorse misunderstandings of my words perhaps we can proceed in this discussion.

 

[Jerry]

jer, i think we went through this one before...
granted..there are some who may choose, but those are not the norm...
transexuals are a completely different..and i have not researched this...it almost seems like a birth defect ,and we do know these happen, and i do believe it is possibble for that to be a birth defect..... a man with a womans brain and visa versa

Careful, if you suggest that any cause or manifestation of homosexuality is "a birth defect" there will be people at the ready, like JusticeCredable, to rip your character without listening to what you actually say, and yet other people, such as yourself, who will tell you that it's not your place to "diss God's work".

how can you know as a mere human, what God in his infinite wisdom ,and why ..He has done the things He has.

You want to direct this conversation down a religious rout? Are your sure? Okay......I know because we have record of His rule and in intuitive knowledge of it.

thats it jer there may be some things that as men and women we will never understand and this..sexuality may just be one....

Even if that is true, we still choose our actions. No choice is genetic.

however just because someone is different does not make them bad. or sinful....

Heh, "different" could mean so many things, but I'll not derail the conversation more than it already was with JustineCredible's last post.

I assume you mean "just because someone is homosexual does not make them bad. Or sinful."

We are all sinners, without exception. We are all "bad" in our own way.

homosexuals are after all here,, and i dont believe God puts anything on earth by mistake. so cant you just look at it as Gods work???? we are , all of us Gods children...and who are you to diss Gods work????:mrgreen:

Do you say the same thing for sociopathology, psychopathology, perihelia and similar? We should leave anything that is in this world alone simply because it is here? Do you knot know that earth is Lucifer's kingdom until the second coming? Do you not know that this world is full of evil, of sin and of ignorance? Do you not know that God's law is all about transcending the flesh, to become something greater?

 

[jennyb]

jerry are you saying sociopaths or psychotics are inherently evil satanic evil????? gosh hon i suggest you be careful in this area. these are
mental illnesses,,,, do you want to go there.
yes i DO believe these illnesses are Gods work, and the men and woman who are researching these things are angels....not with wings of course.

these illnesses deffinately cant be helped, and certainly no one would choose it. this is controlable with meds only.

also i dont see transexuality as a homosexual issue....its not the same thing, not in my eyes anyway....this is a brain and anatomical issue.

 

[JustineCredible]

jerry are you saying sociopaths or psychotics are inherently evil satanic evil????? gosh hon i suggest you be careful in this area. these are
mental illnesses,,,, do you want to go there.
yes i DO believe these illnesses are Gods work, and the men and woman who are researching these things are angels....not with wings of course.

these illnesses deffinately cant be helped, and certainly no one would choose it. this is controlable with meds only.

Don't forget therapy and pro-active treatments.
I really feel those transgendered who have taken the steps to correct their biological error through surgical sexual reassignment to be throughly courageous indeed. They face so much ridicule, misunderstanding, social and even familial ostracizing, yet they do what they feel they must in order to merely survive.

 

[JustineCredible]

Jerry

I owe you an apology. I assumed your stand on these issues and attached your assumed position without warrent. I stand corrected and for my actions I apologize.
I had just finished reading some posts by a poster who has been previously banned from this site but who has come back under another name and it got me a bit hot under the collar.
Again, I apologize for my rant towards you.

 

[jennyb]

justine, i have a cousin who waited until the deaths of both of his parents (my aunt and uncle) so he would not bring any shame on them....that led me to realize the incredible pain he must have indured living with that secret all of those years ,pretending to be something he was not...he had his operation several years ago and is now living as a woman and teaching what he loves..music as a college professor.
my aunt who was like a sister to him, refused to speak to him ever again...and she died without them ever speaking... so yes the pain of these things is very sad indeed and what it does to families as well too, is sad.

the stigma and misunderstanding of what it means to have the misfortune to be different from others and the intolerance..really unfortunate.

 

[JustineCredible]

justine, i have a cousin who waited until the deaths of both of his parents (my aunt and uncle) so he would not bring any shame on them....that led me to realize the incredible pain he must have indured living with that secret all of those years ,pretending to be something he was not...he had his operation several years ago and is now living as a woman and teaching what he loves..music as a college professor.
my aunt who was like a sister to him, refused to speak to him ever again...and she died without them ever speaking... so yes the pain of these things is very sad indeed and what it does to families as well too, is sad.

the stigma and misunderstanding of what it means to have the misfortune to be different from others and the intolerance..really unfortunate.

I assume by your knowing so much about your cousin that you do still keep in touch. That's really awsome. I have a few friends who are transgendered, two of them post-op and one who's still pre-op. I know from their personal stories the hardships they've had to endure and still do.
One of them, m2f, worked in the court system in my home county for years. When he finally worked up the courage to begin his journey, he was re-placed from a public position to an out of sight position. A few months later, somone complained because he/she was using the women's restroom and she was forced to use a bucket in a hidden away closet and expected to empty it out after regular court hours each day!
Absolutely hideous treatment!
She finally left the court system and moved out of state with his now ex-wife whom she still lived with, raising their children together.
We still communicate frequently. I know she only has one family member of her family of origin who still even speaks to her with any frequency. The incredible feelings of loss from family members who refuse to accept these courageous and incredibly pained people is too intence to ever relay. I can't even imagine what it must be like.

I only know what it's like to be an "out" lesbian in my family.

 

[jennyb]

is your family supportive?

 

[JustineCredible]

is your family supportive?

My immediate family is, my Mom and Dad are actually quite funny about it all. Because I was married once before, to a man, they actually said to me, when I finally did "come out": "We always wondered about that whole 'marriage' thing and why you felt it necessary. But, everything in it's own time, right?"

My Mom and Dad recently retired and moved to this adorable little town in the northern most area of Arkansas, and Mom calls it "dykeville USA."

It's really cute.

I'm very lucky, but my partner isn't as lucky. When she came out to her mother, her mother actually asked her to never tell her father or brother, that they just wouldn't understand. They live quite a distance away, several states actually, so it's not really a huge problem.
She does have family in the immediate area though, and she did come out to them. They've been really wonderfully supportive and inclusive toward me and our son.
It just really pains her that she can't tell her father or brother. I know how much she loves them and misses them, but knowing she can never come out to them means she can never go home again. She does go to visit, but my son and I are not welcome.
For a really long time I was actually insulted by this whole charade, but have come to respect it, although I still don't understand it.

I could never have kept that sort of promise, to continue to lie to one parent and not the other. That would eat at me like a monster. I don't know how she manages to do it.

 

[Jerry]

jerry are you saying sociopaths or psychotics are inherently evil satanic evil????? gosh hon i suggest you be careful in this area.

I made no statement in the portion of my post that you are responding to here. It is I who am asking for clarification from you. It is: What are you saying?

these are
mental illnesses,,,, do you want to go there.

That wouldn’t be anything new to me. I've gone there before and I'll likely be there again. I was hoping to avoid the same-old same-old arguments on this thread, however.

O believe these illnesses are Gods work, and the men and woman who are researching these things are angels....not with wings of course.

these illnesses definitely cant be helped, and certainly no one would choose it. this is controlable with meds only.

also i dont see transexuality as a homosexual issue....its not the same thing, not in my eyes anyway....this is a brain and anatomical issue.

I referred to Transsexuality as an extreme form of Gender Identity Disorder. Hyper Masculinisation also falls under that umbrella, as does sexual confusion during puberty which can lead one to exhibit homosexual feelings and behaviors.

My point here isn't to debate the nature of homosexuality, gay 'marriage or any of that. My point here is to challenge the premise of your question:

born gay? or choice of life style..

It's not a one or the other issue. Not all homosexuals are born that way. Not all homosexuals choose to be gay.

In fact, the reason why I choose to post on this thread is because of the very fact that the mainstream pro GM movement makes absolutely no effort, at all, to distinguish between someone who is genuinely physiologically 'wired' to be attracted to the same gender and someone who is homosexual due to sexual immaturity.

It is precisely because of the lack of distinction being made which is why I can not support gay 'marriage, and similar.

 

[Jerry]

Jerry

I owe you an apology. I assumed your stand on these issues and attached your assumed position without warrent. I stand corrected and for my actions I apologize.
I had just finished reading some posts by a poster who has been previously banned from this site but who has come back under another name and it got me a bit hot under the collar.
Again, I apologize for my rant towards you.

I totally understand. I accept your apology and hold no ill feelings towards you.

As for INHOOR, what an azz! He tripped my jimmyjack-perimeter-alert-system and I started chasing him allover the forum. The last thing I need is azzholes like him coming on thinking I need their help attracting flame and hate.

I can ruin my reputation and make enemies all on my own, so when guys like him show up my Jedi instincts take over and I'm usually first in line to smoke them out.

In any event, someone dropped a dime on him to Kelzie, so she took out that size 14w boot she keeps under her Box and booted his azz to the moon. Good riddance, but he'll be back. They always find a way back in.

 

[JustineCredible]

I totally understand. I accept your apology and hold no ill feelings towards you.

As for INHOOR, what an azz! He tripped my jimmyjack-perimeter-alert-system and I started chasing him allover the forum. The last thing I need is azzholes like him coming on thinking I need their help attracting flame and hate.

I can ruin my reputation and make enemies all on my own, so when guys like him show up my Jedi instincts take over and I'm usually first in line to smoke them out.

In any event, someone dropped a dime on him to Kelzie, so she took out that size 14w boot she keeps under her Box and booted his azz to the moon. Good riddance, but he'll be back. They always find a way back in.

The scary thing is that the one posting probably is the wife, not usually the husband of the duo. All you have to do is visit their website to know what psychopaths these two are. http://www.inoohr.com/

Here's an exerpt from one of their wacked out pages:

"inoohr.org
MEDICAL ALERT MEDICAL ALERT

"A CHANGING OF THE HUMAN CONDITION"

THE SOY BEAN

Medical research now shows that homosexuality and gender identity disorder may be caused by SOY TOXINS and environmental poisons! Are you choosing your child's sexuality for him/her?

More medical problems associated with soy

Soy - Sexual Identity Disorder, Homosexuality. "The Debate"

Government involvement

Population Control?"

They're trippy and scary and really need psychological help.

 

[Jerry]

The scary thing is that the one posting probably is the wife, not usually the husband of the duo. All you have to do is visit their website to know what psychopaths these two are. http://www.inoohr.com/

They're trippy and scary and really need psychological help.

Oh, yes, this will be fun.....I'll scope it out and summon a few choice people from around here if it seems worthy.

 

[JustineCredible]

Oh, yes, this will be fun.....I'll scope it out and summon a few choice people from around here if it seems worthy.

I'll warn you now..these people are truly psychopaths. I'm not saying this lightly. They WILL follow you around the net just to get under your skin and see if you'll crack...other than that...Have Fun!

 

[Jerry]

I'll warn you now..these people are truly psychopaths. I'm not saying this lightly. They WILL follow you around the net just to get under your skin and see if you'll crack...other than that...Have Fun!

There are ways to deal with that

I made a couple posts, and an observation: It seems that the majority of the threads are started by the administrator. In fact, the majority of threads that were started by members were in opposition to the administrator.

Also, they go to length to say that they know your IP upon becoming a member. Do they realize that they have someone’s IP as soon as they hit the site? Why go to all the trouble of repeatedly announcing that they have your IP when it’s a given? The Conspiracy Nut in me stirs……