Born Again American

[Conservative]

Great Society? I'm talking New Deal here. :lol: I'd rather put effort towards making the US the bastion of Enlightenment thought once again.

I am quite educated thank you very much.

Could have fooled me. I know a lot of book smart street stupid individuals who claim they are smart too. Most eventually grew up and realized just how little they really know about the real world. What is in the textbook doesn't always equate to real life.

 

[Warspite]

Could have fooled me. I know a lot of book smart street stupid individuals who claim they are smart too. Most eventually grew up and realized just how little they really know about the real world. What is in the textbook doesn't always equate to real life.

I'm well aware of that, but moreover I would like to know how you presume to know anything about my life whatsoever?

 

[Conservative]

I'm well aware of that, but moreover I would like to know how you presume to know anything about my life whatsoever?

Never claimed to know about your life personally but have enough experience to know a lot of people who were as you appear. You could help yourself by listening a little more and talking a lot less.

You don't appear to be smart enough to know what you think you know. Your answers ignore history thus you are doomed to make the same mistakes. It isn't too late. Stop looking to the govt. to save you from your own personal mistakes. The govt. runs nothing well and is good at one thing only, creating dependence. I was just like you at one time, but I grew up and haven't looked back. Best decision in my life to take control of my own life and stop blaming others for mistakes I made.

 

[Warspite]

Never claimed to know about your life personally but have enough experience to know a lot of people who were as you appear. You could help yourself by listening a little more and talking a lot less.

You don't appear to be smart enough to know what you think you know. Your answers ignore history thus you are doomed to make the same mistakes. It isn't too late. Stop looking to the govt. to save you from your own personal mistakes. The govt. runs nothing well and is good at one thing only, creating dependence. I was just like you at one time, but I grew up and haven't looked back. Best decision in my life to take control of my own life and stop blaming others for mistakes I made.

:rofl: Pot calling the kettle black, ne?

 

[Conservative]

:rofl: Pot calling the kettle black, ne?

Hardly, I am 63 years old and spent 35 years in the business world after working for my dad in the family business for about 10 years prior. You could learn from the experience if arrogance doesn't take over.

 

[Ikari]

Hamilton *was* one of the Founders - and frankly one of the more foresighted. There is no evidence to indicate he did not favor checks and balances, and separation of powers; merely that he preferred strong Federal government (as do I). The alternative, well, you might as well not even have a unified republic.

The US is not truly a democratic republic, in comparison to others, not yet anyway.

He was definitely a supporter of monarchy. Furthermore, he promoted the idea of strong central banks. Most of this was rejected at the beginning, but there are those who would claim we live in the nation Hamilton envisioned. I think it's sad, I'd rather go the Jefferson route.

 

[Warspite]

He was definitely a supporter of monarchy. Furthermore, he promoted the idea of strong central banks. Most of this was rejected at the beginning, but there are those who would claim we live in the nation Hamilton envisioned. I think it's sad, I'd rather go the Jefferson route.

Small cottage industries? Bah. History validates Hamilton's support of strong central banks, look what happened under Jackson.

And we do live under his vision, in a way - in that the Constitution is flexible and alive.

 

[Ikari]

Small cottage industries? Bah. History validates Hamilton's support of strong central banks, look what happened under Jackson.

And we do live under his vision, in a way - in that the Constitution is flexible and alive.

Jackson destroyed the central banks, which was good for the time. Can we get away from it now? Probably not, fiat currency and regulation of that currency is needed. Yet the central banks should be reminded of whom they serve.

Jefferson's vision is not that of current America. It was one invested heavily in personal freedom and liberty, one with a small central government which mainly protects and proliferates those rights and liberties. It's not what we have. What we have is suffocating, Big Brother government which dominates the People, not supports it. Jefferson's vision would have called for a revolution a long time ago to remind the government exactly who is in charge. Revolt is a necessary tool of the People and must be exercised from time to time.

 

[Warspite]

Jackson destroyed the central banks, which was good for the time. Can we get away from it now? Probably not, fiat currency and regulation of that currency is needed. Yet the central banks should be reminded of whom they serve.

Jackson's pet banks practically destroyed the economy - it was a terrible move.

Jefferson's vision is not that of current America. It was one invested heavily in personal freedom and liberty, one with a small central government which mainly protects and proliferates those rights and liberties. It's not what we have. What we have is suffocating, Big Brother government which dominates the People, not supports it. Jefferson's vision would have called for a revolution a long time ago to remind the government exactly who is in charge. Revolt is a necessary tool of the People and must be exercised from time to time.

You obviously havent lived in other countries if you call the current US goverment a "Big Brother" situation :lol: Jefferson had some very noble ideals, many of which he did in fact betray (The Louisiana Purchase anyone?). Hamilton had some very noble ideals also - the best way (and the one which many are aiming for) is a tempered middle ground that incorporates both.

Revolution has not and most likely never will be necessary in the United States; to say otherwise demonstrates a supreme lack of knowledge. It should only be used once every other option has been exhausted, and even then is incredibly dangerous.

 

[Ikari]

Jackson's pet banks practically destroyed the economy - it was a terrible move.

I don't think so, I think it was necessary to wrestle control away from the central banks to allow for a better free market. It of course had negative impacts right off the bat, but led to something better. As I said, I don't believe currently we can get away from something like the Federal Reserve or fiat currency, but we have to strictly control the bureaucracy which has control over these things as it is a HUGE power. A power granted, BTW, only to Congress.

You obviously havent lived in other countries if you call the current US goverment a "Big Brother" situation :lol: Jefferson had some very noble ideals, many of which he did in fact betray (The Louisiana Purchase anyone?). Hamilton had some very noble ideals also - the best way (and the one which many are aiming for) is a tempered middle ground that incorporates both.

Just because other countries are worse doesn't mean that our current government isn't suffocating Big Brother. It just means we haven't reached the bottom yet. I'm not interested in bottoming out. I'm interested in protecting the rights and liberties of the individual, to promote freedom above all else. Yes, there are other places which are bad, worse than us. It doesn't mean we have to sugar coat our current situation. I'd rather not get worse, I'd rather we get better.

Revolution has not and most likely never will be necessary in the United States; to say otherwise demonstrates a supreme lack of knowledge. It should only be used once every other option has been exhausted, and even then is incredibly dangerous.

Revolution is indeed dangerous, it's a roll of the dice and we may not roll natural 20's again this time. Yet it is a rightful tool of the People, reserved for our use. I wouldn't say that revolution would never be necessary in the US, it's quite possible especially given current trends that it may in fact be necessary. As dangerous as revolution is, out of control government is well more dangerous.

 

[Warspite]

I don't think so, I think it was necessary to wrestle control away from the central banks to allow for a better free market. It of course had negative impacts right off the bat, but led to something better. As I said, I don't believe currently we can get away from something like the Federal Reserve or fiat currency, but we have to strictly control the bureaucracy which has control over these things as it is a HUGE power. A power granted, BTW, only to Congress.

There is no such thing as a "free market" - there is an unregulated market, yes, but that only leads to catastrophe.

Just because other countries are worse doesn't mean that our current government isn't suffocating Big Brother. It just means we haven't reached the bottom yet. I'm not interested in bottoming out. I'm interested in protecting the rights and liberties of the individual, to promote freedom above all else. Yes, there are other places which are bad, worse than us. It doesn't mean we have to sugar coat our current situation. I'd rather not get worse, I'd rather we get better.

I would too, however the situation is not as dire as some would have you believe.

Revolution is indeed dangerous, it's a roll of the dice and we may not roll natural 20's again this time. Yet it is a rightful tool of the People, reserved for our use. I wouldn't say that revolution would never be necessary in the US, it's quite possible especially given current trends that it may in fact be necessary. As dangerous as revolution is, out of control government is well more dangerous.

The War of Independence was not a revolution in the truest sense, just so you know Revolution is only necessary when all other options are exhausted, and they rarely if ever are - especially given the structure of the US government.

 

[Ikari]

There is no such thing as a "free market" - there is an unregulated market, yes, but that only leads to catastrophe.

Free market isn't laissez faire. We've gone that route before and know what happens, it stifles and restricts the market. But there can be free market capitalism, it's just a very low entropy state so it requires constant work to be involved. Which is why it usually morphs into something worse like the corporate capitalism system we have now.

I would too, however the situation is not as dire as some would have you believe.

In fact, the situation is well more dire than some would have you believe. We're fast approaching a tipping point at which point government size and power will grow to such scale as to prevent turning back. At which point, revolution will be necessary.

The War of Independence was not a revolution in the truest sense, just so you know Revolution is only necessary when all other options are exhausted, and they rarely if ever are - especially given the structure of the US government.

Yet the People are being cut out, little by little government institutes laws to isolate itself from the People. And no one can argue that Congress and the like are not beholden to their big time corporate investors. They are well more beholden to them then they are the People. It's why things like Medicare become plays to prescription drug companies and healthcare becomes plays to insurance companies. Not some institute set up for the betterment of the People, but ways by which the government can take money from the People and deliver it to the new aristocracy.

We are indeed approaching a dangerous point. Whether people wish to admit it or not, our government is ballooning out of control. If we don't do something to capture it, then we will find ourselves slaves on the land that our forefathers won.

 

[Warspite]

Free market isn't laissez faire. We've gone that route before and know what happens, it stifles and restricts the market. But there can be free market capitalism, it's just a very low entropy state so it requires constant work to be involved. Which is why it usually morphs into something worse like the corporate capitalism system we have now.

The private sector needs to be regulated, but you are correct in that reguation is the limit of involvement.

In fact, the situation is well more dire than some would have you believe. We're fast approaching a tipping point at which point government size and power will grow to such scale as to prevent turning back. At which point, revolution will be necessary.

I don't mind large government. :lol: And it won't be necesary in the least.

Yet the People are being cut out, little by little government institutes laws to isolate itself from the People. And no one can argue that Congress and the like are not beholden to their big time corporate investors. They are well more beholden to them then they are the People. It's why things like Medicare become plays to prescription drug companies and healthcare becomes plays to insurance companies. Not some institute set up for the betterment of the People, but ways by which the government can take money from the People and deliver it to the new aristocracy.

We are indeed approaching a dangerous point. Whether people wish to admit it or not, our government is ballooning out of control. If we don't do something to capture it, then we will find ourselves slaves on the land that our forefathers won.

The current situation is the fault of the People, not the government in itself. They are the architects of their own fate.

 

[Ikari]

I don't mind large government. :lol: And it won't be necesary in the least.

It will when this large government does nothing but support the aristocracy at the cost of the People. Which is how most big government runs, and certainly what ours is morphing into. I guess you'd be ok with it if you're part of the aristocracy. Though if we're going to have an aristocracy, we should go back to the old school rules. Sure they get benefits and luxuries at our expense. But every so often, we get to kill them.

The current situation is the fault of the People, not the government in itself. They are the architects of their own fate.

While it is true that it is the fault of the People, it doesn't justify the current government or make it good the path we travel. We are still going down a dark and dangerous road. We should caution ourselves not shrug our shoulders and take the plunge. Instead, we should call to arms, raise the alarm. We need to become aware of what our inattention has done and the danger our liberty and freedom now face.

“I apprehend no danger to our country from a foreign foe... Our destruction, should it come at all, will be from another quarter. From the inattention of the people to the concerns of their government, from their carelessness and negligence, I must confess that I do apprehend some danger.” - Daniel Webster

 

[Warspite]

It will when this large government does nothing but support the aristocracy at the cost of the People. Which is how most big government runs, and certainly what ours is morphing into. I guess you'd be ok with it if you're part of the aristocracy. Though if we're going to have an aristocracy, we should go back to the old school rules. Sure they get benefits and luxuries at our expense. But every so often, we get to kill them.

Well according to conservative I'm part of the "Liberal Academic Elite" so FEAR ME. :rofl

t is true that it is the fault of the People, it doesn't justify the current government or make it good the path we travel. We are still going down a dark and dangerous road. We should caution ourselves not shrug our shoulders and take the plunge. Instead, we should call to arms, raise the alarm. We need to become aware of what our inattention has done and the danger our liberty and freedom now face.

Not at all, however the People still possess the power to change it - if they choose not to then meh.

 

[MyOwnDrum]

I've done enough research specifically on WHO to know that they massage statistics in order to get a desired outcome.

If it wasn't intentional it certainly is sloppy and that lends itself to be discredited as a viable source of information and public policy ideas.

WHO and the rest of the UN is fairly useless, in my opinion. I have no faith in these types of organizations.

 

[Ikari]

Well according to conservative I'm part of the "Liberal Academic Elite" so FEAR ME. :rofl

I'm probably well more elite. My life has been spent in academia, probably my career will never move from it (one outcome of having a PhD in physics). I fear no elite, for I am on some level quite elitist. Though my elitism is based in performance and ability, not heritage or money.

Not at all, however the People still possess the power to change it - if they choose not to then meh.

There will be some time by which we can still change it peacefully if we mobilize enough. But there is also the possibility that peaceful change will not suffice and violence will be left as the only opportunity. Government does not hold monopoly on violence, nor should it ever for very good reason. I will not give up my right to revolt, it's proper power and tool of the People. While I would agree that it cannot be used lightly and must be a last resort; it must remain as a resort for the People. One day the People may wake up and find themselves in a world they do not like, that they cannot control. And if such government exists, it must be destroyed. It is always the right of the People to do away with their current government should it not suit the needs and liberties of the People. If people choose not to try to defend themselves, they can be the slaves. But I do not wish for slavery, I want only to be free.

 

[American]

Define promotion versus provision, and why your definition carries more weight than the others.

No, you define them. You want to the definition to be flexible. And we don't have to argue the definitions of promote vs provide, because it's academic. The Constitution says what it says, not what you want it to say.

 

[Warspite]

No, you define them. You want to the definition to be flexible. And we don't have to argue the definitions of promote vs provide, because it's academic. The Constitution says what it says, not what you want it to say.

Any definition I might offer is based on external sources and opinions, if you are such a strict constructionist then define it using the Constitution only.

Otherwise, your opinion means jack.

 

[American]

Small cottage industries? Bah. History validates Hamilton's support of strong central banks, look what happened under Jackson.

And we do live under his vision, in a way - in that the Constitution is flexible and alive.

Once flexible, then infinitely definable. Shall we now ignore the Supreme Court? The main document and its amendment meant what they mean when written, and the amendments are the only changes to the main body.

 

[Warspite]

Once flexible, then infinitely definable. Shall we now ignore the Supreme Court? The main document and its amendment meant what they mean when written, and the amendments are the only changes to the main body.

Even at the time it was written there was contention - hence why judicial interpretaion is necessary.

 

[American]

Even at the time it was written there was contention - hence why judicial interpretaion is necessary.

Sure, and what limits this interpretation?

 

[mikeey]

What America gets, they were the architects of. Make your bed, lie in it.

does that not say it all..

well said Warspite.

all the best m8.

mikeey

 

[Conservative]

What America gets, they were the architects of. Make your bed, lie in it.

does that not say it all..

well said Warspite.

all the best m8.

mikeey

Something to think about. Why have we gotten so far off the path of what made this country great. More like this guy would change that for the better.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VP2p91dvm6M"]YouTube- Congressional Candidate Lieutenant Colonel Allen West[/ame]

 

[Slartibartfast]

Our forefathers would be apalled at what has become of this great nation.

I have trouble seeing why we should care about what some people who have been dead for almost two centuries would think about the current state of the US. Its not like they were any better or worse than anyone else.